Sparhawk

44 million Americans without health insurance would disagree with you, not to mention the 13-20 million illegal immigrants in this country, who have basically no safety net of any kind, yet provide some of the most important day-to-day labor jobs in this country.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

debaser

And would any one of them be denied medical care if they went to a hospital?

__________________

Sparhawk

This is an important issue that needs more attention:

http://covertheuninsuredweek.org/rel...p?ReleaseID=89

Here's a sample from the link:

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Children are all covered by public aid. What always made me sick were the children who could get free treatment for problems but their damn parents never took them back for the treatment even though it was 100% free.

There is a big difference between being uninsured and being denied care don't you think?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

For a start, you do not create more peace by going to war with someone and bombing them. Look at Iraq today, is it peaceful, is their security? Jumpy American troops being ambushed, retaliating and shooting anyon ewho gets in the crossfire too...

The state infrastructure of Iraq is being broken down by this war and by UN sanctions, we have not improved the lot of the average Iraqi citizen, and you will find no reports showing Iraqi people who say that we have.

Sure, they hated Hussain, or at least many did, but they America and the UK too, Iraq is not asking for America to take it's oil, sell it to itself (at a price set by America) and then give the money back to Iraq but only to be spent how the American's say it should. Hussain is gone, the military is beaten... Iraq is asking to be left alone to pick up the pieces.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Sparhawk

This varies quite a bit state to state, Ustwo. I should mention that one of the states that's provided the most coverage for children is Vermont. We all know who that state is home to...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Still doesn't change the fact that the uninsured figure is a myth.

The only people in this country who get screwed are middle class people without insurance for whatever reason. The poor get their medical bills covered.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Endymon32

This stat kills me. How many of these 44 million have nice cars, cable tv and other luxeries but CHOOSE not to buy insurance? The actuall number of people who have no access to insurance and can not afford it is actually much much lower.
Its not Americas fault that so many would rather spend their money on cell phones, cable tv, sports cars, than heath care. This stat is touted all the time as america's shame, when the truth be told its really a testement to America's greatness, that so many people can choose to disrgard their heatlth and their families health, and then demand that others pay for their own shortsightedness.

Endymon32

You slay me. Look at Germany six months after the major fighting stopped. There was more death, more destruction and less success. By your logic, we should have pulled out thus creating the same circumstances that happened after ww1 that led to ww2. I dont see the Germans ralling to destroy America today ( nor do i see it in Japan) and starting a new war? As per usuall, you are wrong. Again.

Sparhawk

Myth?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0930-01.htm

43.6 Million without insurance. Definitely 'mythical' numbers...

As to your other, valid, point, I'll quote from the same article:

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Sparhawk

*sigh* This is a particularly insiduous lie being spread by the current administration.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/

A few blurbs, feel free to click and read all of it:

emphasis mine.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Its a myth because they dont' have 'insurance' but the government pays their bills which amounts to the same thing.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Sparhawk

If only that were true.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

It is, I've been there done that and treated them.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smooth

I don't understand why you keep stating this.

First of all, the government doesn't "pay" impoverished citizens' medical bills in the way you are implying. The laws, while varying from state to state, essentially ensure that a poor person won't be denied emergency care. the government only pays for it in the form of a loan and the patients don't receive primary care.


There are multiple problems with this, as I see it:

1) impoverished citizens are less likely to seek medical care if they don't feel they can afford to repay their debt. I don't lay this at anyone's feet, but it does need to be considered in light of the next point.

2) Since they only are entitled to emergency treatment and not primary care, impoverished citizens who do seek treatment only do so once their ailment is life-threatening.

3) I would much rather pay a $150 dollar primary care visit than a $1500 emergency care visit.

4) Impoverished citizens are also less likely to desire or be able to leave work for a few days to recover from a minor ailment. I don't want people walking around my work, school, or children's places with communicable diseases.

5) In the current environment of biological warfare threats, it seems that our security needs might compel us to allow for primary care coverage of non/underinsured persons. It would be tragic if a germ were dispersed to the public and the poor kept walking around spreading it because they couldn't afford to get their "bronchitis" checked out.


So, Ustwo, please stop spreading disinformation. If you really have worked in such places with uninsured persons, then you know that the government doesn't provide free treatment, it bills the patients. It also doesn't provide adequate medical coverage, it only requires that hospitals not let people die in their emergency rooms. This is hardly an efficient method for dealing with communicable diseases that the infected person can spread to many people as well as being a leading cause of reduced productivity.

Sparhawk

Nice post, smooth - what I was trying to get across, only smoother

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Really Dr. Smooth? While many people, rich and poor, wait to late for medical care, its based more on education and fear of the doctor then insurance. You won't hear the nurse saying 'I'm sorry but your tumor is not big enough, please come back in a few months'.

Me too, though I'd rather they paid, but thats another topic.

Really? This is something the poor have a problem with the insured don't? Most companies are rather stingy with sick time, and being self employed I personally don't get paid sick time and my whole office has to shut down if I miss a day (all paid). I really don't desire to leave work a few days. So who are these uninsured walking around your work and your school passing the plague unto thee?

This one is amusing, and shows an utter lack of understanding of how people act when sick. Most ignore it until they are VERY sick, and if they do come in early the symptoms are not diagnostic. Do you check everyone who walks in with a cough for anthrax?

I'll admit that our system isn't perfect, as it does hurt the working, non-insured, lower middle class, but the 'poor' are covered fully. It was always infuriating when I could get a cat scan done for some piece of human waste who had not worked a day in their life because it was covered by the government and not for the girl who had a job and was not on the public dole. I'd be all for government subsidized insurance (you have to pay SOMETHING for it) and the total elimination of all benefits for the adult welfare class we have created in this country. There ain't no free lunch, and I've seen the socialized systems and personally don't hate people enough to support them.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Endymon32

What you apparently didn’t bother to do is read Perry Biddiscombe’s “Werwolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946,” which gives full chapter and verse on Nazi-postwar guerrilla operations. It’s true that the Werwolf was poorly organized, and the threat of attacks greatly subsided after a few months of occupation. But they were very real. A survey of records by the U.S. Army Center of Military History shows that at least 39 combat deaths occurred in the first few months of the occupation. If the Nazis had been better organized, the Werwolf might well have given World War II GIs as much trouble as the thugs in Iraq are generating now.

And Werwolves weren’t the only problem. Violent crime, thievery and black-marketing were rampant. Germans incessantly complained to U.S. military officials about inadequate public safety. And these threats paled in comparison to the physical privations. Many feared masses of Germans would freeze or starve to death in the first winter after the war. To suggest that the first year of occupation was anything less than a dreadful, harrowing experience for many Germans is just bad history.

Making the postwar reconstruction of Europe appear like a walk in the park suggests that somehow this administration must have screwed things up terribly to face such a plethora of problems. In fact, history suggests the opposite.

Occupations are rarely easy. And it’s understandable that the Pentagon couldn’t completely and precisely predict the postwar conditions it would face in Iraq. In time of conflict, it’s impossible to fully anticipate the end state--what the country will look like after the war. There is a “fog of peace” fully as dense as the “fog of war,” the phrase Prussian military theorist Carl von Clausewitz used to describe why battles never go as planned.

Misusing the past offers little insight to understanding the scope of the challenge the United States faces today. In truth, the key to success in Iraq is to take a page from the occupations in postwar Europe: Stand-up a legitimate government and domestic police forces, and let the people rebuild their own country.

It took four years to do that in post World War II Germany. Sometimes it takes that much time and effort to be on the right side of history.

Sparhawk

Please quote when you use someone else's source, Endymon32. Especially when we know you aren't James Carafano...

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commen...nderforPrint=1

This graph is from the book you and I both haven't read: “Werwolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946"

<img src="http://www.unc.edu/~sstaff/images/graphww.jpg">

As you can see from the graph, attacks on Allied personnel never went above 11 per month. Granted, this was just one zone. So, being generous, we'll say 40 per month max for the 3 western zones.

Comparing that to the 10-20 attacks per day the coalition faces right now is ludicrous at best, revisionist history at worst.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

james t kirk

Like Chris Rock said about when he was growing up...

Chris Rock: When I was a kid, I had to be near-death to see a doctor, so my daddy got into the habit of putting Robitussin on everything, and I mean EVERYTHING!

Here, you feeling sick, drink some Robitussin. You break your leg, here, just rub in some Robitussin. Oh wait, we're out of Robitussin, well just add some water to the bottle and swish it around.

james t kirk

Excellent post...

A couple of American clients of mine like to talk about the "socialized" medicine in Canada being right up there with Romania and one guy was piping off about SARS in Toronto and the fact that it killed 40 people and that "socialized" medicine was to blame.

I put the shoe on the other foot and countered that if it weren't for universal health care coverage it would have been far worse because people would have put off seeing a doctor and just spread it around even more.

Endymon32

Revisionist history? Where are you basing that claim? It took years to make Germany a nice decent place. So far we are not even a year into Iraq? And again, how many natives are in the attacks as opposed to forgeiners, including Al Queda? If you think that Al Queda is NOT moving into the Iraq theater, then you are gravley wrong. So dont take the attacks as proof that IRaqis dont want us there, take the peace in 99% of the nation as proof as proof that they are pleased with us.
Only the media takes Al Queda's attacks as proof of the Iraqis disatifsaction.

PS your graph shows that there were INDEED a lot of terrorist actions in the first 8 months of occupation. THanks for sharing. And WOW Germany became a nice place to live. Actually the Capitalist part did, the Communist part didnt untill it became capitalist, but thats another thread.

madp

Quick points:

1. My wife and I are both highly educated and "enlightened" folks (heck, we even have subscriptions to Harpers and The Economist! ), and we only agree on about 60% of the "big" issues. What makes Mr. Communist think that an entire nation of human beings will suddenly be in agreement on ANY of the big issues, much less all? Will we all become homogenized clones?

2. The poor in this country, through medicaid, have access to the best medical care in the world, including virtually unlimited pharmaceutical benefits. The disabled and elderly have access through Medicare. No one in this country can be denied medical care if they need it. I have worked in the industry for over a decade, and I know all to well how it works.

There are problems with the healthcare system right now, but health care in the US still surpasses that of any of the socialized systems with regard to how quickly you can receive medical care and to the advanced technologies available in the US on demand, but not in socialized systems.

__________________
why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

Sparhawk

If you had read my post, "Mr Carafano", you would have seen where I am basing the charge of revisionist history. You do bring up one interesting point, and that is what percentage of the attacks are from al-queda cells that came in after the occupation, and what percentage are Iraqi rebels. But the fact is, I don't know, and you don't either.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Strange Famous

It is not a case of making people clones, it is a case of SOLVING the big problems. There is a huge degree of political argument today because capitalism is a flawed economic and social system that creates many problems for people - exploitation, domination, racism, sexism, classism, nationalism, pollution, religious intolerance...

Nearly all of the things we argue about politically are things caused by the fact that capitalism is not working.

We will abolish nations, and nationalism.

All forms of mass prejudice (ie prejudice against social or ethnic groups) will be abolished.

exploitation, opression, dictatorship and the brutality of the state (especially the police) will be abolished.

In communism, the big issues have all been solved, the only debates are matters of organisation. We will have debates about how resources are organised, about how they are allocated, to which project, to which research...

These will be healthy debates, and all the more healthy because each person has equal access to the floor, to the power to make the decision...

In communism your wife and you might argue about whether the social organisation should build build a park or a road in this or that place, or about whether more money should be invested in conquering space or abolishing disease, and so on and so on... these debates may well be passionate and lively... but they are not confrontational - because we have solved the real problems, we have all agreed that communism has given us the solution to the problems of managing the government and the economy of this plannet

Those who do not agree with communism will be forced BY THE SUCCESS OF COMMUNISM IN EVERY ASPECT OF SOCIAL AND MATERIAL LIFE to commit themselves to the cause. Not by brute force, but by education and example, only the insane could wish to go back to the capitalist system.

You and your wife will not be arguing about the fact you have too much democracry, that the means of production have been placed under too much democratic contol, that communism has created incredible advances in techology... you will not be arguing against the revolution that all sane men and women will love and cherish.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

And somehow, maybe using some 'magic' people will all be willing to work their hardest, and no one will try to take advantage of his fellows.

Let me tell you, I worked my ASS off for where I got to today, and I did it making almost no money, getting myself into debt, and losing most of my earlier friends since I didn't have time for them. The golden apple at the end of this was I would have a respected position and make a better then average living. I didn't just have to go to school and pass, I had to maintain a GPA that put me in the top 5% of an already select group as well as doing independent research.

Without the motivation of being able to provide for my family better there is NO way I would have put myself through 7 extra years of very hard work (past college).

Luckily communism has fallen into such disrepute that even communists like the greens are afraid to come right out and call themselves communists.

I still have to wonder if its a poor education, lack of intelligence, naiveté, or some sort of sickness which makes people advocate such a horrendous system.(or maybe just jealousy and laziness)

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

madp

I would guess that it's a misguided ambition to "fix" the imperfect human condition? I believe that Strange Famous means well. I also think that he <i>really really</i> believes what he's saying.

I give him an "F" for his judgment and reasoning skills, but an "A" for embodying youthful optimism and a caring heart.

__________________
why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

Peetster

Like who gets to be in charge of the world. Why bother the people with those details.

madp

LOL!

Exactly. Also, who are the counter-revolutionaries who need to be liquidated and dumped in an unmarked hole in the ground.

__________________
why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

Strange Famous

The enemies of the revolution are not murdered, and only would ever be killed in self defence. Enemies of the revolution should not be seen as vicious or savage, but as children, who must be educated. We do not beat the counter revolutionary with the gun, we beat them by showing them that communism CAN work and that this IS a better world.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

debaser

So, "re-education" rather than a bullet, how kind.


This is sounding more and more like the USSR all the time...

__________________

Strange Famous

education means education, people read euphanisms were none are intended. I mean that if someone does not approve of the revolution but accepts it is the democratic will of the people, but they argue against it, they have the freedom to do so. I suspect the vast majority of people will see them as a fool and laugh at them, but it will be their right to believe and argue for whatever they want - as long as it is not hate crime.

If someone opposes the revolution, and attempts to sabotage it by criminal activity, then they must be re-educated, as you say. They must be placed in a classroom and taught their lessons, this is a criminal individual we are talking about and every society must attempt to rehabilitate the criminal

In both cases, the goal is for them to be convinced of the revolution and that is good by practical example.

If a person, because they are pathologically insane, wishes to attack society, through criminal acts, and cannot be educated to cease this anti social behaviour, they must be locked up.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

debaser

Well, hell, you've convinced me. If you can guarantee that the weather will always be a balmy 72 degrees then go ahead and sign me up...

__________________

Endymon32

I like how "racism and prejudice will be abolised" was tossed out in one sentence without any details or information as to how it will be done. Golly, thats enough for me!!! JEEPERS!

Strange Famous

Racism is not a natural human emotion, it is a function of living in a divided society. Because the working class is forced to compete, both against itself in every country and against other countries, this creates unatural social divides between people.

The capitalist superstructure encourages this... for example, when there are job losses, the people do not say "this is because of exploitation, this is because capitalism is failing" they say "this is because of illigal Mexican labour which is competing against us" - and of course the media and state and so on have an interest in encouraged certain types of prejudice, so long as they do not create lynch mobs.

When people are not exploited, forced to compete, shunted around like cattle by Capital, then the motivation for false prejudice dissapears, and then we are left only with the human motivation, which does not exist - the things we all have in common are far greater than our differences.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

rogue49

You've got that in San Diego
Believe me...you pay a price for it in many different ways.
It's all an illusion.

Besides...it's boring.

I think you are missing the concept of real freedom.
The freedom to win or lose.
The freedom to change
The freedom of choice

These are lost in the society you describe.

Strange Famous

Communists do not want to limit freedom of choice or change.

You are quite right that we wish to abolish the freedom to lose, and to abolish the freedom to win at someone else's expense.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Endymon32

Totally wrong. There has always been the group mentality. From Cavemen to the American INdians to now, there has always been an "us vs them" thing going on. It IS human nature, and the only way to defeat it is communication and education. There has been US VS THEM in what you call the only true communist times in human history, and in fact problably MORE so then. So once again, you are incorrect.

Endymon32

Unless your choice is to own a weapon, that choice is eradicated. Also the choice to own a better home, that choice is eradicated. The choice to speak against the state, that choice is eradicated. The choice to pick your own religion, that choice is rradicated.

Utopia? Sounds like Big Brother is watching.

Peetster

Good. Then I choose against communism and elect to change my government if communist.

OF COURSE Communists want to limit freedom of choice or change! Otherwise people break free. Can't have your comrads running off to live in the only freedom of sewers or back woods. I'll gladly give up some creature comforts to live away from a totalitarian government. Hopefully before being 'reeducated'.

Don't come looking for me; I'll be armed.