spectre

I can't let this one go without comment. Sammy's stats with the Rangers:
AVG
.238

G
25

AB
84

R
8

H
20

2B
3

3B
0

HR
1

RBI
3

BB
0

K's
20

SLG
.310

And don't forget, he wasn't doing all that great in his couple of years with the White Sox, so it's a really weak point arguing that the Sammy trade was bad, because Sammy wasn't hitting 50+ HR's annually.

(stats taken from here)

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No goddamn slave
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The_Dude

i'm not saying that you cant do anything.
your mind, your decision, but i'm saying that you're primarily basing your judgement on his personal life, not his professional life

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sixate

Do you think that's the only reason I never liked Clinton? Clinton is way to the left and I'm wasy on the right.... Or did you forget that? It's no different than me and you and look how much we disagree on things. I'm sure you can understand that.

The_Dude

seemed very much that it's cuz of the incident w/ lewinsky.

i saw that in this thread and the hillary thread, where you expressed your disgust w/ the fact that she didnt leave him.

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sixate

Did you even read my last comment?

<center>Clinton = left
sixate = right</center>

Now from that I can say that I have almost never agreed with a thing the man says politically. He is the exact opposite from me, just as you are. I'd say that it would be pretty damn hard to find a statement that came from the former president that I could agree with. Are you begining to ubderstand yet?

Easytiger

Damn, I love the Politics board. I could site here and read you guys flaming each other all day! (And I do.)
It's good to see some people with opinions.

boatin

You know, there has been lots of posting where people say "you could make a list like this for anyone, therefore it's not that valid".

Hell, I said that myself. And that's all very nice, and non-judgmental. And not like us at all. But, for EasyTiger's sake, let's take a different tact.

Here is a small subset of the above list. In a perfect world, I would like to see the source of each statement. But lacking that, I will say that these don't seem like a stretch to me.

I would suggest that each of these is completely inexcusable, for anyone of any party. Some, of course are a matter of degree. I'm not suggesting that taking vacation is bad. Taking all of these together makes them all worse.

MSD

I don't see any blatant flaming. I see heated discussion during which the participants are being civil and avoiding flames from erupting.

That said, let me play Devil's Advocate.
Even so, I have to argue against some of these.

-Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.

What's your point? Reagan was an actor. Should he get more credit because he was on the big screen and known more widely? (Don't like him much, either.)

-First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

I don't agree with the death penalty, but if anyone deserved it, it was the guy who got it.

-First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

It's just that he was the only one to get caught. Plenty of other presidents did illegal stuff, including my favorite, Bill "I didn't inhale" Clinton.

-Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

They brought that on themselves. Kofi Annan's personal bodyguards carry illegal weapons and Annan himself had some personal ties to Saddam. Doesn't provide a good basis for relevancy.

-Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

I stood up and applauded when I saw this. It's another step toward world government, which is not a good thing. Our buddy Bill applauded this decision, so it's not exactly a good thing to hold against Bush

-Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

Could go either way. He's trying to find out what people want him to do. As much as I don't like it, he didn't go to war until he had over 50% support.

-First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

It's been around since the middle of the cold war. he was the one who acknowledged its existence.

-First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

Uh, that's not what I hear from someone I know who moved here from S. Korea last year and sitill has family there.

-Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

Sorry guys, he's got another year-and-a-half before his first chance is over. It's not exactly an easy thing to do.

-Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

I'd like to see any of you do any better.

-Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

This is not entirely Bush's fault, it is not entirely Clinton's fault. It's part of a much larger trend that transcends presidential terms. The original Bush did some good stuff, Clinton continued it. What Bush II did wouldn't have crashed the economy alone, these scandals would have happened with any president, and the Terrorist attacks would have happened no matter who was in office.


These points have been dissected and rebutted by a Liberal who would like nothing more than to see Bush voted out by an honest election. I think that's a good argument to discount those. I did this becasue I think that if I rebut the weak opinions of those who agree with me, it will focus our efforts on the strong ones and strengthen our argument overall.

boatin

I agree with your intent, and will follow to a point. That point is where we (not necessarily you and I) discuss the fine print and lose site of the biggies.

Case in point: Polls and focus groups. I might have been piling on to add that to the list of egregious issues. But it does offend me that Bush is packaged as "a man of moral convictions, who does what's right, and to hell with the naysayers". That statistic tells me otherwise. I let my ire get the best of me on that one. And I would still love to see sources.

But removing that one, I stand by my sub-list as horrific and unconscionable. Lowering health care for veterans? That's 'supporting the troops'? Please.

semperwill

I would like to see some of your resume. He is an awesome President...

boatin

Are you suggesting that the things I list are defensible? If so, please defend them. If you think they are as ridiculous as I do, then an agreement would be appropriate.

Excusing someone's poor decisions because you think they are "awesome" is no way to improve anything. I'm with Sixate on this one (call the press!): everyone does good and bad things. No one should get a free ride.

The place I differ from Sixate (well, this one at least) is that I don't think wartime gives anyone a free ride. Pressure players do better when there is pressure.

PS: my resume isn't relevant. I'm not president of the freakin' United States of America.

aciddrummer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeyB
[B]Someone could pick and choose enough negatives to fill a "resume for the last 5 presidents. (I think someone would find it very difficult to do it for Gerald Ford!!!!)

Go ahead and show us then. Cause I don't believe it.

Phaenx

Something I found on the internet.

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mastertakana

well, i'm drunk now. i think GB should not be blamed cause he is more or less a front man for the hamsters that actually run on the wheels. Also, don't hate us for using 9-11 as an excuse to go get us some texas tea(oil,hulie,aceite) for our country, baby.

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mastertakana

oh yeah, manzanar. why didn't they tell us about that in high school?

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Need alot of trees up in my head

MrSmashy

hilarious

sixate

Good job Phaenx!

Now what to do all the liberal Dems have to say?




That is the best part of the post. Great if true, but I don't know for sure.

mirevolver

The United Nations made themselves irrelevent by passing resolutions and then refusing to enforce them.

Personally I think the best thing the United States can do is withdrawl from the UN and kick them out of New York. As said before, they are irrelevent and if we kicked them out of New York that real-estate on the east river would become gold for companies. Not to mention all the parking spaces New York would suddenly have if all the diplomats left.

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XenuHubbard

Well, don't worry guys, Bush Jr. will only be in power for the next 5 years. And then it's Jeb Bush for 8 more years. So that's only 13 more years of Bush. That will give the USA a Bush-break for about 15 years, since the twins will be about the right age then.

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rogue49

Didn't like GWB, didn't vote for him.
Still don't like him.

Even though I did like his decision to attack Iraq & follow through quickly.
And the attack on Afganistan.
Probably the best thing in the world to stablize those regions.
And his administrations decisions on Miltary have been decent,
but I give more credit to Rumsfield for that.

But his overall foreign diplomacy is heavy-handed.
And his domestic policy is lacking and seems detached.

But he's got one & a half years to change my mind.

I'm a die-hard middle of the roader,
I calls them, as I sees them, at the time it counts.

BTW, even though it's really no-ones business,
I give my voting record, and my brief opinion.

Voted - Opinion (after the fact)
Reagan - turned out I hated his domestic policies
Bush - even though I like the Gulf war, he hid too much, detached.
Clinton - liked his way of playing, but the fucker ruined his shit with his dick
Gore (why? Not GWB, seemed lesser of 2 evils)
I didn't like GWB's detachment. and even thought his VP is incredibly intelligent,
I didn't like the power play he pulled getting in.
(looked all around for a good VP, found one, it's myself
oh no, he's not out for himself)

Even though value wise I believe some conservative, some liberal
I judge according to the situation, and how much the person is going to do for ME and my environment and my nation.
And if the person seems detached, then that's a HUGE mark against them.

IMHO, there seems to be a disconnect there,
Between his administration and the average citizen.

But I'm watching & waiting...

jamesbara

hey, everyone talking about clinton, I have one thing to say, don't be a player hater. just b/c he got some play, doesn't mean he is a bad guy. sure, there is that whole "lying" to the US citizens and such, but he clearly wanted the definition of "sexual relations" and when it was all spelled out, he quite honestly did tell the truth. sure, he was sneaky and underhanded about it, but it was well within reason for what they defined. and don't give me that you guys wouldn't try to weasel out of it either if they gave you such a good out that was "legit". the whole reason that people get mad @ clinton is b/c he beat the system with their own game about truth, and they got ultra pissed and then said he lied to them. sure, a lie of ommision is still a lie, but it's differnt than an outright lie.

so what do I have to say about gWb?

1. this country is losing it's civil rights left and right. about the terrorism act and homeland security act. yeah, they really need to be reading my email, but hey, now they can, and it's legal!

2. I didn't get laid off when clinton was in office. but it just so happens that when gW-jerk got into office, my hours were cut from 40 to 9 hours a week b/c they can't afford the people anymore due to new taxes and a lowered general economy. what can I say, when people are broke, that whole luxury dvd player is not as tempting anymore.

3. why the hell do we have the electoral college anymore anyways? it was a great idea when the telephone didn't exist, and when voting polls where a days mule ride away, but I voted on my pc last election, why the hell should some other guy have the final say in who my vote is for. last time I was taught, this was a democracy, but in all actuality, it's a republic. put that in your pipe and smoke it w.

4. if you were clinton, that that was your wife. you would cheat too. but hey, if I was the most powerful man in the world, I would have gotten a little bit better play.

5. ohh yeah, so lets see, I forgot, doesn't congress have to declare war? oohhh, don't give me that garbage about commander and chief, he should have no right to tell our troops what to do if he can't control himself and not drive drunk.

6. I wish my dad could get me into yale. so I have a 150 iq, but I didn't get into princeton, how in the hell did he get into yale!?

7. anyone else thing that W is more of a threat than some of the other so called potentially dangerous world leaders. ohh yeah, 71% of Europe. but they are so small, they don't count, at least to him.

8. so, withdrawing from the world court and civil rights committee? lets go ahead and hang all the koreans in this country, maybe we can spook NK into just giving up. wtf is wrong with him? ohh yeah, the US has over 20 years of unpaid UN bills, not like we care what they think anyways. I was in the UN building last time I was in NY, the carpet was running thin they had so little money, and the richest country in the world refuses to pay the bills.

9. I love knowing the richest country in the world has spiraled the largest debt in history! your tax dollars @ work.

10. The US will now be renamed, "mess with me, or ask about any of my previous shady legal encounters or business deals, and I will invade your country. sincerly, GW. "

11. umm, so I have to take a drug test to drive a truck, but our own president doesn't have to take one? How redicoulous is this.

12. I wish I could take a vacation for a month and still be paid $30000 a day.

13. it's sad when I have visited more countries than our president. no, mexico does not count, it's just like america, but with less money. the same amount of mexicans though. and tacos are cheaper. yes, there is still walmart in mexico. sam walton, you genius, if you were still around, I would vote for you as president.

14. hey, I have murdered 2 people, and robbed a bank. I can't get a loan for a car, but I can get a job in the gWb cabinet! thanks bush!


sorry for invading you guys forum with all this random complaints and nonsense, I just thought I would share my 2 cents with some random interjections of comedy when it made sense. no, I don't care if you don't like what I have to say, so go on and quote me and say how wrong I am, but until you live a day in someone's shoes (mine) under the rule of this dictator, I mean, president, don't knock it. I may not be able to respond to anywho who replies to me, due to the fact that the homeland security act ecompasses SSL encryption and they are allowed to open secure packets now and read them, so I bet with all this bad talk about our jerk, I might be put into the metal clink.

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