silent_jay

PM Martin has decided to replace the decrepit Sea King helicopter. 2 companies have been short listed for the project to provide the CF with 28 new helicopters, is this the militaries most dire need or are there others?Any thoughts?

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HugAPug

Who got the contract? Do you know? The trouble with our military is everything needs attention so it's difficult to know what to start with. One person could say we need desert uniforms so we don't have another Afghanistan-type embaressment. Another could say we need transport planes so we don't need to catch rides with American ones. Another could bring up the Sea Kings. I'm very glad to see Mr. Martin is putting more funding into the military. I might have to think about my opinion of him a little more now.

rideough

Sure new equipment is good as I wouldn't even stand close to a Sea king if it were running, but what we really want is more bullets for training. I'm really serious about this... I get 30 blanks for a week long exercise and heaven forbid I'm on enemy force then i have to scrounge to fill my 4 mags. It's bullshit and I know almost everyone in the military feels the same.

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james t kirk

According to the boys in the military, they don't want dessert uniforms. I saw it on the news that they like their green uniforms because it distinguishes them from the Americans. The locals also know that they are Canadians and tend not to shoot as much as them as they would if they thought they were americans.



We need all 28 helicopters absolutely, and they should buy the best ones available period. Under Chretien, they were told to buy the cheapest ones that would get the job done. Supposedly things have recently changed under Martin for them to buy the best ones on the market.

We could also use probably 10 or so transport planes. They currently have three (3) hurcules planes that are a complete joke since usually they aren't even in working order.

Chretien spent 100 million on two bombardier jets for his own use. That money could have been better spent on transport planes and chretien could have taken air canada for christ's sake.



I don't know if he is putting more money in or not. I think he intends to, but i don't think he has made any promises.

Don't forget, he was the finance minister under chretien who cut the shit out of their budget in the first place. Maybe Chretien was ordering him to do it, i don't know. Martin went to DND headquarters last week to deliver a speech to the military boys. Chretien never set foot in that buiding in the entire 10 years he was prime minister and Martin was in there the first week he was on the job. That's promising.

Our military needs it's budget to be doubled.

The americans spend 350 some odd billion on their annual military budget (absurdly high). Since our population is roughly a tenth, we should be spending in the order of 20 billion, to maybe 25 billion. Currently, i think the canadian military budget is around 10 billion or so. Shameful.

Here's a very interesting link with some pretty graphs

http://www.ploughshares.ca/CONTENT/W...PERS/wp031.pdf

kandayin

The french military budget is around 40 billions for 60 millions people.
And I think it's quite balanced if not already too high.

Ustwo

Based on the effectiveness of the French forces, I'd say you are wrong.

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Liquor Dealer

Any money spent by the French on military is a total waste - a lot like a solitary monk buying birth control pills. One might ask how much of the money spent by France was for its own use or is it money spent on militray goods that are sold - legally or illegally to other nations. If you really look into most militray budgets you'll probably find that a lot of what appears actually end up in the military of some other nation.

It appears that any change in Canadian government is for the better. Not in any way trying or attempting to bash Canada but from what I've seen on these boards most of you were not happy with what you had.

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Nad Adam

Or a lot like buying a fireextinguisher is wasted money unless you have a fire. I know this might seem strange but some countries actualy use their military as an assurance for peace.

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OFKU0

I think new helicopters are a good start. Will these be the same helicopters that the Mulroney government promised to buy only to have the Chretien government cancel the project costing 100's of millions of dollars.

We may have to pay double with all the costs factored in as to what they are worth but then our soldiers don't have to worry so much as to if they will die each time it lifts off with like that of the Sea Kings .

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james t kirk

We also need some new fighter planes. We haven't bought any fighter planes since Trudeau was in office in the early 80's. The F-18's we do have apparently have the computer systems equivalent to a commadore Vic 20 (remember those).

We need just about everything, not the least of which is more men and women. And they could probably use a decent raise too.

LD is right, it is good that Chretien is gone. I think Chretien had a real hate on for anything to do with the military. I thought it was totally hypocritical of him to attend the memorial service for the guys killed in Afghanistan by the land mine given that they were using such inferior equipment.

Economically, Canada did very well under Chretien, but ironically, this is all due to Paul Martin who was the then finance minister extraordinaire.

I look forward to seeing what Paul Martin can do. I like the way he speaks, and I like the things he has done so far in his first week in office.

Now he has to get rid of a pile of pork that Chretien was responsible for. He, Martin started by getting rid of those idiots who spent 100 million a year on advertising / stealing in Quebec.

The good thing about Martin is that he knows where the waste is and I like his new finance minister - Goodale. Fiscally careful, doesn't believe in deficit spending. Thank God.

silent_jay

one of them is an updated version of the ones mulroney wanted to buy i'll try to find the companies who have been shortlisted tonight, i should of had them before i started this thread.

Let's not start bashing the french again i want this thread to be a civil discussion of the issues. thank you

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HugAPug

Interesting. I guess you do learn something every day. Thanks for telling me this.

Peetster

I have many fond memories of the Sikorski Sea King, as well as thousands of hours of stick time. It almost pains me to hear them described as "decrepit". But of course they are.

silent_jay

yes they are.

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Ustwo

You KNOW your military needs help when even the liberals in your country say so

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Superbelt

Yeah, just like those damned america liberals, who only won two world wars so far.

Ustwo

SO how many soldiers dead and innocent civilians killed? Perhaps Americas greatness is such that we can win a world war we get forced into despite our liberals

On the other hand Canada was a great alley and asset in those wars, something they could not be at this time. I am glad that is seems that Canadian citizens are aware of their deficiencies as well.

Personally I'd think Canada would be best served with a stronger navy and special forces, but its not like I know their pressing needs.

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james t kirk

We have our elite forces as well, don't kid yourself. JTF2 is right up there with the seals, and delta force. These guys are the best and you wouldn't want to meet one in a bar and insult their unit.

They were deployed in Afghanistan and performed very well.

Apparently when Canada was mulling joining any armed front into Iraq, Powell was very interested in them (and not much else).

And although the Canadian forces have long suffered under Chretien and it is my true hope that this will be turned around under Martin, I do not doubt the commitment and skill of the troops that we do have. By all accounts, they do a great deal with a whole lot of very little.

james t kirk

According to military records, for every one (1) hour of flying time, the Sea Kings require forty (40) hours of maintanence.

That is decrepit my friend.

These things are 40 years old now. Basically, these guys are driving around in 64 Pontiacs to put it in perspective. Wait, the 64 Pontiac wasn't a bad car. Ok, they are driving around in 1973 Ford Custom 500's. That's more acurate.

Ustwo

I'm not saying Canadian special forces are lacking, but thinking more from a practical, 'how do we enforce our will' kind of way. I can't see Canada returning to WWII levels, nor do I see Canada becoming the worlds police man, thats the US's job it seems, so the next best thing would be a very strong navy with special ops.

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hobo

Its about time the Canadian military gets some help. Really, it has degraded way too much over the last 60 years. The Sea Kings have become the symbol of the Canadian Forces, outdated and useless. I bet that this is the primary reason for Martin choosing to replace these first. He is a smart guy, I think I'll like him better then Chretien.

OFKU0

Canada has superior expertise in the elite field. If more money were used to specialize certain areas, Canada could become a leader on the world stage for intelligence,spec-ops,etc. To build an army is not the way to go. Special units for all occasions. That's what I would do if I were the PM.

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silent_jay

Special Forces are great but if you have "special units for all occasions" then the secrecy goes out the window. where i live JTF2 secrecy is non-existent they can't be in town without people knowing they are there.

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silent_jay

from what i found these are the companies going after the contract to replace the Sea King, sorry for the delay in finding this.



PM gives go-ahead to replace Sea Kings Posted Laconfiron Wednesday, December 17 @ 14:50:04 PST

The federal government will formally call for bids this week on its $3-billion contract to replace Canada's aging fleet of Sea King helicopters, ending a decade-long saga marked by allegations of political meddling, CanWest News Service has learned.

The controversial Sea King replacement -- something Jean Chretien spent a decade avoiding -- has received the go-ahead from Prime Minister Paul Martin and will be turned over to the defence and public works departments so a formal request for proposals can be sent out to bidders this week, say political and aerospace industry sources.


"I believe they're going to announce everything this week," Rod Skotty, vice-president of business development and government relations for Lockheed Martin Canada, said in an interview Tuesday. "That's on the record. I'm confident it's going to happen this week."

Lockheed Martin Canada, the Canadian subsidiary of the largest American defence contractor, is a member of one of the three international consortiums that is expected to bid on the single biggest contract to be awarded by the Martin Liberals: $3 billion to deliver 28 new maritime helicopters to replace the fleet of 1960s-era Sea Kings.
Another source, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the documents for the formal request for proposals were already drawn up by the defence department for incoming Defence Minister David Pratt, who was appointed Friday.
"They're telling Pratt: Simply sign them," said another source.
The Sea King replacement process has been mired in the Ottawa bureaucracy for more than a decade, as critics accused Chretien of playing politics with the lives of helicopter air crews.
Chretien's first act after being sworn in as prime minister in 1993 was to cancel the $5.8-billion EH-101 helicopter contract of the previous Conservative government to fulfil a campaign promise to reduce wasteful spending. Critics accused him of rigging and delaying the process for his full decade in power rather than see Team Cormorant, the consortium behind the EH-101, win again.
Meanwhile, the Sea Kings have become a costly national embarrassment, requiring 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the air, while frequently breaking down. Several months ago, the entire fleet had to be grounded while a technical malfunction was being investigated.
Cormorant, an Anglo-Italian consortium, is expected to enter the competition, as is the U.S. Sikorsky Aircraft Corp., and a consortium made up of Franco-German NH Industries and Lockheed Martin.
Sources say Martin gave the Sea King replacement his stamp of approval last Wednesday, two days before being sworn in as prime minister.
The decision comes as Martin announced Tuesday a freeze on all major capital projects in order find enough money to cover the government's promise to give the provinces $2 billion for health care.
Pratt was quick to point out that the Sea King replacement would be exempt from the freeze.

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