silent_jay

is it right that the Americans are blackmailing countries to contribute to the "coalition" in Iraq. If they want to bid on the billions of dollars avaliable in reconstruction projects they must contribute something.

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Mojo_PeiPei

They aren't blackmailing anybody. All they are saying is if you haven't been part of the solution thus far, or if you aren't willing to contribute to further the situation, you can piss off. They are perfectly justified in doing so.

To make a bad sports analogy...
It's like when your playing basketball and your crash the boards. You always have those two or three pussies that just wait out at the 3 point line hoping to get lucky and play clean up, while you're stuck in the paint banging around fighting for the board. I HATE those people.

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silent_jay

The US should be looking at turning Iraq into a productive country and not using it as a barginning chip. what contribution does a country have to make in order to bid on these contracts, do the have to contribute troops to Iraq because that is what it seems like. Canada sent troops to Afghanistan twice and has contributed over 300 million dollars to the reconstruction process is this not enough of a contribution. (apparently not because they never made the list of countries that could bid)

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Mojo_PeiPei

I'll agree that Canada is getting an unfair speel. But as far as goons like France, Germany, and Russia go, they can eat a dick and die for all the obvious reasons that have ever been stated on this board.

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silent_jay

i honestly don't believe that any of these countries should be penalized for not taking part in the coalition. Russia has enough trouble with Checnya and France and Germany just used their right to choose their battles, if this invasion was sanctioned by the UN all the above countries would have been ther with the US but people couldn't wait for UN approval.................. Thanks for aggreeing with me on Canada we are definitley getting the shaft on this one but we come to expect it from the US.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Your view of the situation seems rather offbase, where were you throughout the whole fiasco? I'm sure that it comes down to perspective, but lets look at it objectively.

-France and Germany were a bunch a goons... why?
Lucrative oil contracts
ILLEGAL military contracts

France didn't want to loose its business with Saddam. So while we here in the States were just being wild west cowboys and saber rattling, what were the french doing to help the situation? They promised to veto any resolution that authorized the use of force, which would take Saddam out of power. They seemed to conviently overlook the fact at all the resolution Saddam had willing disobeyed, all 16 of them. Does negative reinforcement mean anything? They just wanted to perpetuate the status quo til they could cash in. While they were being a bunch of punk bitch cowards with no stones, we got fed up with all the bullshit and did what should've happened back in 1991, we took out the trash.

And please don't give me "Russia has enough trouble..." the US has actively contributed peacekeepers and money to just about every major peacekeeping reconstruction effort of the 20th century. People get down on America for being in Iraq, well what the fuck is Russia still doing in Chechnya?

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Ustwo

And this is bad why?

I'd be upset if we let those who wanted to profit from Saddams blood money and prevent liberation to try to profit from the reconstruction.

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Dragonlich

As I see it: it's American money and the US government can spend it where they want; if they want to spend the cash to buy things from their friends instead of those that insulted her, who can blame them. There's no law (be it national or international) that states the US government *has* to buy stuff from anyone, now is there?

I find it a bit hypocritical of some countries that they first oppose the liberation of Iraq and label the US as evil, and then demand the right to rebuild Iraq *using US money*. If it were *their* money, it'd be another thing altogether, of course.

tokaok

hmm sorry but to a point all goverments (even Can, US, Uk, etc) are goons to a degree in the view of others. If they werent they arent doing their job.

the job of the goverment is to do the best for themselves.

the problem here is that the US is really hurting itself in the mid future for gains in the immediate present.

yes it looks bad on paper if you seem like you are basically giving money to other nations people who opposed you.

but its even worse when later on the you lose it all because you didnt take the effort to seek out and gain the help of others.

a good current example is the Dean campaing in the US, Dean got alot of attention for getting endorsements of two big unions and just recently Al gore.

in all 3 case they stated that dean was the only one who actively seeked out their help and did what they wanted to prove that he could indeed represent their interest.

world politics aint highschool, no one is gonna come to your birthday party and give you gifts just because your the pretty and popular one. in the real world you need friendship and that is only grown of actions showing you care.

Locobot

Yah doode we rode our surfboards right in there, an' fuckin' speared Saddam in tha nutz, an' Frenchie biatches were all like 'HUUGHHUUGHHUUGH we laugh like the frog,' so we killt them dead too.

The Iraq fiasco is a hostile outgrowth of the U.S. business community. We have absorbed all Iraqi assets, let's face it--it was always part of the deal. Iraq's resources have long been a glowing ripe fruit ready for the plucking by Bush admin. officials, dollar signs glazed over their eyes. Those dollar signs now glaze the eyes of many Americans throughout the country.

Why are we unwilling to accept Iraqi-contract bids from other non-coalition nations despite our pledge to install democracy and a free market economy? It's because many of these contracts will go without any bidding process, even within America, to those companies with men on the inside. That's right, ding ding ding, Halliburton, Bechtel, and Big$Oil.

That said I actually AGREE that this practice is kosher, for now. The region just isn't stable enough to allow this kind of input from nations far and wide, yet. A debt is owed to the American people, right or wrong, who funded the junta with money and lives [defecit spending causes inflation, I shit you not, your money is worth less, Merry Christmas]. Unfortunately it seems this debt will be repaid with black crude from the ground and dirty-tough jobs in terrorism prone areas. Like it or not, this is the hole we've dug. This debt will continue to be paid the entire length of the occupation, probably about ten years.

When the contracts will be open to international bidding depends on way too many factors to name here. Some of them include: extent of exploitation of the Iraqi people (it's inevitable), perceived benefit for the average American (not just gas prices staying the same for 5 more years), and the ability of Bush admin. officials and their respective companies to release their grasp on the contracts (not much hope here, did you know Condoleeza Rice has an oil tanker named after her?).

silent_jay

all the US seems to be interested in is itself not an unusual thing i come to expect it from a country who seems to think that it is the policeman of the world. good point that governments are supposed to be "goons" (could we not find a better word) because if they weren't they aren't doing thier jobs."


" becYah doode we rode our surfboards right in there, an' fuckin' speared Saddam in tha nutz, an' Frenchie biatches were all like 'HUUGHHUUGHHUUGH we laugh like the frog,' so we killt them dead too.
Locobot how do you figure that this statement makes any sense at all? nothing has been accomplished in Iraq, granted Saddam is gone but are the Iraqi people free?no. has thier quality of life increased?no. I know that CNN seems to make things out like thier has been some kind of grand change, but please these contracts should be open to the people who can best do the job, and Iraq should not be sold out because people didn't support the war. What would happen if all these countries "blackballed" pulled money out of Iraq that they have contributed? I thought that this was part of "the war against terror"? If thats the case then some of these countries have contributed (quite a few with the lives of thier soldiers)

Trust me Mojo i wasn't living under a rock for the past two years i knew and most of the world knew that Sept. 11 was just an excuse to invade Iraq. After Afghanistan is that word Afghanistan still in the American vocabulary or did they forget it already? seriously though i believe that it is all perspective.

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onetime2

Absolutely. I love how the EU is now "investigating" whether the policy is legal. Basically, they're trying to say that the international community should be the ones to determine how America can spend its money.

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Dragonlich

First, the US isn't the only country looking out for themselves. Did you truly believe France, Germany and Russia were against the war because they were thinking of the poor Iraqi people? Hell no! They were simply thinking of the lucrative oil contracts they were about to lose.

Second, if these countries want to help the Iraqi people, they can spend their OWN money to pay for their OWN companies to help. They should not demand the US to give them money, as if they're somehow entitled to it. They're not.

Third, the Iraqis are indeed better off now than they were in the past, because the former regime is gone. It is my firm conviction that the present state of affairs is temporary - Iraq will rise from the ashes, and the people will have a better future than they would ever have had with Saddam still in power. I'd invite everyone to look beyond the bad news you see on TV every day - that is not the full story, just like the murders in the US media aren't the full story either.

And finally, just because you *think* the US government is evil, and is only interested in money, does not mean that is actually the case. I know it's hard to understand, but you might just be WRONG. Picking news that encourages your world-view is hardly a good way to stay informed. Nothing is ever totally black or totally white - it's always a murky gray at best.

Liquor Dealer

I didn't play in the Super Bowl! I didn't go to the game! Hell! I didn't even watch it on TV - but, by God I want me one of them fancy damned Super Bowl rings with all the diamonds on it!!! If you don't think I'm entitled to the ring don't cry on my shoulder about what the non-participants aren't getting in Iraq. Same damned difference.

onetime2

Yes, but you've heard about the superbowl, so you're entitled.

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Mael

if i'm not mistaken, the US even said before the invasion occured that it would not give out contracts to those who did not participate. and i totally agree with this.

XenuHubbard

It's simple. European reconstruction money is supposed to flow through American companies in Iraq, to the USA.

The correct thing would be to let anybody from a country donating to rebuild Iraq bid on the contracts. It would be the best thing for Iraq.

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silent_jay

that is what people should be thinking about is what is good for Iraq

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rogue49

I have another thread on this very subject
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=38654

However, here's one of the problems too.
Not are they only blocking the bids of certain nations,
but at the same time they are asking those nations to forgive debt from Iraq.

I'm sorry you can't have your cake & eat it too.
Pick one...hardline or supportive.

Not to say the least, this is another huge international "foot in the mouth"
no matter what is said or done now.

ARTelevision

Rather than simply type for the sake of typing, I'll say I agree with Dragonlich completely. Well said.

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Mojo_PeiPei

I believe the idea is if countries like Russia forgive debt (8 Billion in this case), then they would be able to bid for the contracts.

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Locobot

I didn't intend for it to make sense. I was attempting, apparently unsuccessfully, to mock Mojo_pipi's tone and content. Did you read the rest of my post? I think our positions are much closer than you might think. Bush and his admin. are not typical Americans, in fact they represent an extreme. Unfortunately typical Americans have been used and continue to pay the price of our invasion of Iraq. They only way to rehabilitate Iraq and repay the debt owed the average American is to restrict bidding, for now. In 2 years should French companies be able to bid? Yes. Right now? No.

sixate

Me too.

TequilaJr

here, here!

prosequence

Didn't bush just ask other countries (France, Germany etc...) to forgive the debt owed to them by Iraq ? Why would they especially now! Besides, isn't Iraq a "free" country now, why can't anybody develop their own contracts with Iraq. I wonder if they had a certain number of buildings and such to blow up before the contracts became lucrative. "Hey Saddam is downtown having a latte at this cafe.... BLOW IT UP!!!".
Anyways... regardless of what contracts Canada does or does not get, I'm pissed about all the money we spent into the war effort and now the 300 million we sending in to "rebuild" something we didn't blow up. Fuck damn.

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SLM3

I think only companies from the states that voted for Bush should be allowed to bid for contracts. It's only fair. Or maybe just the companies made up of citizens who voted for Bush. Ya, that would be the most fair.


SLM3

j8ear

I think this will be the big negotiating point. End result: Iraq=no foriegn debts; France, Russia, Germany=Lucrative Iraq recon contracts.

Sure the US will probably 'award' them with the sewer cleaning, river dredging, manure delivering contracts. All the shit details. Whiner's can't be beggars.

We'll see how it plays out.

I did hear that Cretian (outgoing Canadian PM) was assured by Bush on the phone that Canada WOULD NOT be excluded from bidding. Drudge had it linked y'day to here:
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/...%5Frecap%2Ehtm

Politcal posturing and negotiation tactics are all this is, imho.

-bear

smooth

Delicious

silent_jay

i se your point now loco and agree that are positions are not that far off. although i don't see why countries should havr to wait two years to bid.

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