Liquor Dealer

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85528,00.html

RAMALLAH, West Bank — International diplomatic officials handed a long-awaited Mideast peace plan to region leaders Wednesday, just hours after Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (search) was sworn in and a homicide bomber killed three bystanders and injured 50 more at a Tel Aviv bar.

The U.S.-backed "road map" - a peace plan for the region - was drafted by the United States, European Union, United Nations and Russia.

It calls for an immediate cease-fire, a crackdown on Palestinian militias, an Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian towns and the dismantling of Jewish settlements erected since 2001. A Palestinian state with provisional borders could be established by year's end, with full statehood possible within three years, according to the timetable............


The article basically went on to say that both parties are in agreement that it is a workable plan -

Their only concerns seem to be Arafat - It seems that he is the basic block to anything constructive ever happening to bring about a lasting peace . Maybe he needs to go somewhere on a long vacation.......and not come back.

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Grothendieck

Well I hope the bad sides of Arafat will be contained by Abbas' new cabinet. I don't where the idea that Arafat is the block to everything in the Middle East comes from though, and don't believe in it.

I read a longish article on this topic. The "road map" used to contain the following idea: That both sides should start making positive changes *simultaneously*. I do believe that a majority of the population wants peace, but that both sides are scared of making the first step. This is one of the basic problems: Being afraid of making a step and then getting no step from the other side. I haven't read about the now proposed "map" though. From what I understood of that article, it seemed that the steps the Israelis were supposed to make have been made smaller.

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JoeyB

I'm happy to see that the U.S. has the foresight to see that the problem doesn't end in Iraq, or even Syria. Although I don't want to see more wars and more deaths, once we started, it would be foolish to stop at this one dramatic step.

Arafat is--and always has been--a problem. He has shown that he will not negotiate, or if he sits down to the table--he rarely ever sticks with the agreed upon conditions.

Someone will have to make a bold move in that area. It seems to be similar to the Iraqi backing of Hussein as long as they thought he was still a threat to hurt them. Once his power appeared to be dwindling, the masses felt comfortable enough to turn against him. What will make the peace-loving members of the middle east have the courage to do the same?

As always, I hope for peace and fear the toll.

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stan the man

it will work

it wont work in three years like they say but it will work

there is to much external persure this time

my question is when they do achive peace what will all the brain washed suicide bombers do you dont just drop out of the program

think of the kids who are only four years in to the training where will they apply thier trade

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james t kirk

Never in a million years.

james t kirk

Arrafat isn't stupid.

He knows if he ever compromised with the Israelis, he'd find himself on the short end of a 9mm bullet.

Did you ever see Micheal Collins???

The_Dude

both sides need to make concessions if they want any peace.

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gibber71

It would be civilized if peace could be had but I'm skeptical since the hatred directed toward each other's cultures runs so deep.Even people on both sides of the equation who advocate peace are seen by many as radicals.Maybe the U.S should threaten the Isreali's with cutting off the 3 billion in financial aid it receives yearly and threaten the Palestinian's that they will never have a country or be recognized as a people.Perhaps then,knowing that both their existences are at stake,they might start learning the value of life.

drewg

Gibber71 made a point, but I think it's hard to threaten the palestinians in any new way that would have a huge inpact on them. In that case it would have to be the other arab nations who where to put preasure on them.

But i don't know. It seems to me the militant palestinias feel like they don't have much to lose, and would rather die fighting the occupiers than bargin for the land that they have left. They're likely to ignore the palestinian government, since they think negotiating is useless. And when the militans won't stop fighting the Isrealies won't stop fighting either. Both of them blaming each other for ruining the peace process.

A reform in the palestinian authories is a good idea, but the problem is that the group willing to negotiate has little or no influence over the militants who are fighting.

*sigh* It would just have been so much easier if the jews had chosen another part of their world for their jewish state.

JoeyB

I understand what you're saying and I would never classify a man who could survive such a turbulent area for so long as a stupid individual. He's obviously very smart and very crafty.

However, I stand by what I said. I don't think a lasting peace and Arafat will ever be associated with each other. I wish it could, but I don't see how it's possible.

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drewg

It's horrible to see how similar these two conflicts are.

Liquor Dealer

Both sides appear to be at a point where they are more than willing to make concessions - The problem is the third side is unwilling to concede what day it is. Arafat and his insane fanatical followers - wait - perhaps that wasn't exactly what it should have been - those extremely radical groups that appear to, and claim to support Arafat, are never going to concede anything to Israel. Israel knows how to deal with this type of problem. Israel has proven on many occasions that they know how to deal with this type of problem - The question is, are we willing to let them deal with the problem? Are we willing to turn them loose and let them eliminate the radical faction from Palestine. If the truth were known, the majority of the people of Palestine would probably approve of such an action up to a point - Many of the people in Palestine probably want peace as badly as anyone. Condiitons could not get much worse than they are right now.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Phat Bank

It won't work. The Bush Administration won't be able to muster the cajones to put the proper amount of pressue on Israel to make the "painful concessions" Sharon talks about.

Dilbert1234567

i realy dont think there can ever be peace over there, both claim the land as a holy site, and further the palistinians were moved to make room for the isrealies which of course makes matters worse, to much blood has been spilled for there to ever be peace unless drastic measured are taken:

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Easytiger

Sure, the plan will work. And on that day, Satan will go to work in a sleigh.

KillerYoda

Maybe we can bomb it into working, that is our style.

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Easytiger

Ha! Good one, KillerYoda!

james t kirk

I agree, and as a generous Canadian, I offer Northern Quebec.

And the lord said,

"Come forward my chosen people, and get you to Northern Quebec. There you will find many wonderful things such as maple syrup and poutine"

crumbbum

I don't think Israel is the block to peace at this point... after all it was arafat that walked away from the Taba talks when he was offered almost anything they asked for. Also, I don't it's "recognition" or statehood that they pack bombs with screws, bolts and rat poison for and blow up grandmothers, or shoot kids in their beds. It seems more like "insane fucking bloodlust" to me. Maybe a product of the controlled press, schools, media, etc.? The PA is a thugocracy. The US is right to demand reforms. Only problem is that Abbas isn't much different than Arafat- fatah veteran, he's a holocaust denier, just thinks palestian goals will be better achieved through non-violence. Let's remember that the PLO was formed in 1964, before Israel controlled gaza or the west bank- the whole area was once known as Palestine. The "liberation of Palestine" means the destruction of Israel. I agree with what was said above, maybe if Israel wiped out the crazies, some of them would want peace. But they execute anyone suspected of "collaborating with Israel", and as long as the current hierarchy exists (oh, and Abbas gave the education portfolio to hamas in the new government), there is no chance of peace. Any new concessions from Israel will be for nothing. better to wait until peace can actually be made. You can't force peace on people who don't want it.

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Liquor Dealer

This is that part of Canada that wants to be French! Right? Damned generous of you trying to give away something that wants to leave in the first place.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Mael

am i the only one that thinks that the term "homicide-bomber" is fucking gay?

SLM3

I think you should go and take a closer look at the "concessions" Israel was willing to make. Arafat would have been crazy to accept it.


SLM3

MSD

Not only is Abbas a Holocaust denialist, he was the financier for the 1972 attacks at the Munich Olympics.

I think it's a sutpid attempt to be politically correct about something that doesn't deserve it. no matter what you call it, they're still a bunch of fanatics blowing up themselves and others.

gibber71

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
[B]Not only is Abbas a Holocaust denialist, he was the financier for the 1972 attacks at the Munich Olympics.


And Ariel Sharon was the Defence Minister who over saw the massacre at Sabra and Shatila in 1982 and did nothing about it. Does that make them even?

popo

I think you have it mistaken. While Camp David wasn't feasable, Arafat should've at least stayed and negotiated. Instead, he walked away and launched a war thinking it'd get him more concessions.

It did. The violence got him the Taba offer as it forced Barak to make one last all-out attempt. Taba was a great offer for him and he still didn't accept.

SLM3

Stayed and negotiated what? Camp David was a joke and an insult. Look at the maps put forth (hard to find in the US, conveniently enough). They exist, and if you look at one you'll see what I mean.

You think Arafat alone launched this latest Intifada? You don't think Sharon played any part in provoking the tired, desperate, and angry people? You remember Sharon's armed visit to the Temple Mount in September, 2000?

Nothing official was ever offered at Taba, it was a series of informal talks that were broken off by the Israelis. If anything, Arafat should have gone public with some of the things they talked about in an attempt to give his people some hope.

SLM3

ARTelevision

I do hope it will.
I also believe we have sufficient leverage now to exert influence in both spheres.

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crumbbum

The intifada was planned long before Sharon visited the Temple mount. It happens to be the holiest site in the world to jews, and the arab waqf, which controls it, has been doing "renovations" and destroying lots of priceless artifacts. Sharon was checking things out. That is about as controversial as an Italian politican walking through the vatican. The intifada was planned before that, they found evidence in PA documents. Don't be so naive. And about Sabra and Chatila, if it was so obvious there was going to be a massacre, why didn't anyone else say anything? It was carried out by the President of Lebanon's troops, in their own country. Remember in Afghanistan when the Northern Alliance was executing taliban prisoners? No one said anything, and that was happening over some time and publicized! The sabra and chatila thing happened in one afternoon. Sharon wasn't directly responsible, and frankly, I doubt even if he had known he would have let his own troops be killed to keep one group of arabs from killing some other arabs. Do you know how many inter-Arab massacres there have been? There is no moral equivalence between Sharon and Abbas. Why do you guys defend such bloodthirsty people?

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Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

popo

Sorry, but everyone knows that this war was launched purposely by Arafat, and was not some spontaneous uprising. His PA and Fatah men have long admitted this.

As far as maps negotiated in Camp David and Taba, I've seen them many times. It's not tough to find, contrary to your conspiracy theories.

If you want to see a map of Israel's proposal in Taba, go here (a Palestinian source:

http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact.../taba2001.html

The Taba talks ended with both sides putting out a joint statement saying: "The sides declare that they have never been closer to reaching an agreement and it is thus our shared belief that the remaining gaps could be bridged with the resumption of negotiations following the Israeli elections."

Then, Barak had heard what Arafat had said just 2 days earlier at the Workd Economic Forum: "The current Government of Israel is waging, for the last four months, a savage and barbaric war, as well as, a blatant and fascist military aggression against our Palestinian people. In this aggression it is using internationally prohibited weapons and ammunitions that include in their construction depleted uranium"

http://palestineaffairscouncil.org/arafat_economic.htm (A Palestinian source)

Then Barak officially broke off Taba and I for one don't blane him one bit.