One of these days Alice! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 12-03-2003, 11:30 AM

I really really hope this is true.

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0312030858.asp

Quote:

When President Bush delivers a speech recognizing the centenary of heavier-than-air-powered flight December 17, it is expected that he will proffer a bold vision of renewed space flight, with at its center a return to the moon, perhaps even establishment of a permanent presence there. If he does, it will mean that he has decided the United States should once again become a space-faring nation. For more than 30 years America's manned space program has limited itself to low Earth orbit; indeed, everyone under the age of 31 — more than 125 million Americans — was born since an American last set foot on the moon.

I really hope this is true, and its not because its GW doing it, I'd have applauded Clinton or even Carter in a heartbeat for the same type of action. Space exploration is where the future of mankind lies, the long term benefits can not be denied, and every dollar is a well spent investment in our survival as a species.

Superbelt · 12-03-2003, 11:41 AM

Agreed.
We have realized many benefits from the space program.
I want to see a national objective of landing humans on mars by 2010.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-03-2003, 11:48 AM

I want to vacation on Mars. I'm excited for this.
I'm glad he's pushing the importance of Space exploration.

pyraxis · 12-03-2003, 11:53 AM

I'm all for the commercialization of the space program. It's not really going to explode until people can make a profit on it. Billboards on spaceships may be ugly, but if it gets us to Mars first, it's worth it.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-03-2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pyraxis
I'm all for the commercialization of the space program. It's not really going to explode until people can make a profit on it. Billboards on spaceships may be ugly, but if it gets us to Mars first, it's worth it.

I think there is already a StarBucks on Mars.

2wolves · 12-03-2003, 12:14 PM

"Mars Needs Conservatives!"

Ok, time to see the vision thing. I hope its for manned flights and not robots. Will wait until the speech is up before praise or fault is offered.

2Wolves

filtherton · 12-03-2003, 01:40 PM

If it is true than i am excited. Maybe one day i'll be able to see the earth from the outside.

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
Agreed.
We have realized many benefits from the space program.

Name one.

And I retain the right to discount things like NASA's "upside down writing pen" as examples.

Would the billions of dollars not be better spent on helping the poor, researching a cure for AIDS or cancer, improving education etc?

Mr Mephisto (playing Devil's Advocate)

2wolves · 12-03-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Name one.

And I retain the right to discount things like NASA's "upside down writing pen" as examples.

Would the billions of dollars not be better spent on helping the poor, researching a cure for AIDS or cancer, improving education etc?

Mr Mephisto (playing Devil's Advocate)

How about two dozen +/- ?

http://vesuvius.jsc.nasa.gov/er/seh/spinoff.html

I'd really like to howl at an earth rise for a change.

2Wolves

Superbelt · 12-03-2003, 03:38 PM

Wow, that is the best list of advancements we achieved through the space program I have ever seen.

It makes the links I have for it look pathetic.

That just earned a spot in my bookmarks for the next time someone asks me that question.

VELCRO!

Liquor Dealer · 12-03-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Name one.

And I retain the right to discount things like NASA's "upside down writing pen" as examples.

Would the billions of dollars not be better spent on helping the poor, researching a cure for AIDS or cancer, improving education etc?

Mr Mephisto (playing Devil's Advocate)

If we ever do anything right I sure hope you let us know.

Phaenx · 12-03-2003, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Name one.

And I retain the right to discount things like NASA's "upside down writing pen" as examples.

Would the billions of dollars not be better spent on helping the poor, researching a cure for AIDS or cancer, improving education etc?

Mr Mephisto (playing Devil's Advocate)

No.

We've apparently already stuck it to Einsteins speed limit, I think their's more potential in exploring other local planets then there is in curing AID's or cancer. Also, screw the poor.

2wolves · 12-03-2003, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
Wow, that is the best list of advancements we achieved through the space program I have ever seen.

It makes the links I have for it look pathetic.

That just earned a spot in my bookmarks for the next time someone asks me that question.

VELCRO!

Been quite mad for space since reading
R. A. Heinlien's juv novels. I even have a friend who is a "rocket scientist." Ultra-violet level of cool.

2Wolves

lurkette · 12-03-2003, 07:08 PM

Meh. We can't even take care of one rock in space, why should we go despoiling more? I say solve the problems on one planet before we go starting problems on another planet. (Or a moon.)

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
How about two dozen +/- ?

http://vesuvius.jsc.nasa.gov/er/seh/spinoff.html

I'd really like to howl at an earth rise for a change.

2Wolves

So what we have here are technological advancements, most probably developed originally by NASA, that find everyday use.

Fine.

But that wasn't my point. These are technological advancements that would most likely occur anyway. Also, these are not benefits that have accrued to mankind because of the exploration of space. Rather, they are a result of the billions spent on R&D. It's a fine distinction. Even the name of the page speaks volumes to me. "Spinoff". In otherwords, there are no direct benefits of space exploration to humanity. The sun is still going to explode and fry everything in the solar systems in x millions(billions?) of years. The speed of light is still a fundamental barrier to extra-solar system exploration.

The military spins off more benefits to the general public than anything else. Does that mean we should promote war?

By all means, spend money on research. Just don't fool yourself that we're anywhere close to some SciFi StarTrek or StarWars nonesense.

:-)

Mr Mephisto (Devil's Advocate)

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
No.

We've apparently already stuck it to Einsteins speed limit, I think their's more potential in exploring other local planets then there is in curing AID's or cancer. Also, screw the poor.

If you're aware of the speed of light being broken, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

I'm quite sure there are probably a few men in dark glasses who work for the Government who would also like to "talk" to you in private...

Also, what added "potential" is there in exploring other planets? Potential for what? More Challenger disasters?

Your consideration for the poor and sick is heart warming. But not in a good dude. Not in a good way.

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
If we ever do anything right I sure hope you let us know.

This, I just don't understand.

Are you being sarcastic? Perhaps a little bitter?

If so, I think you've missed my point entirely. Do you know what "Devil's Advocate" means?

Mr Mephisto

Sparhawk · 12-03-2003, 08:08 PM

I'm a sucker for west wing quotes, but this is how I feel:

Quote:

Sam: There are a lot of hungry people in the world, Mal, and none of them are hungry 'cause we went to the moon. None of them are colder, and certainly none of them are dumber 'cause we went to the moon.

Mallory: And we went to the moon. Do we really have to go to Mars?

Sam: Yes.

Mallory: Why?

Sam: Cause it's next. 'Cause we came out of the cave. And we looked over the hill, and we saw fire. And we crossed the ocean, and we pioneered the West, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration, and this is what's next.

Phaenx · 12-03-2003, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
If you're aware of the speed of light being broken, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

I'm quite sure there are probably a few men in dark glasses who work for the Government who would also like to "talk" to you in private...

Also, what added "potential" is there in exploring other planets? Potential for what? More Challenger disasters?

Your consideration for the poor and sick is heart warming. But not in a good dude. Not in a good way.

Mr Mephisto

Sure, electric signals can be transmitted 4 times the speed of light, thus proving e=mc^2. Where e = OWNED.

http://www.lauralee.com/news/lightspeedbroken.htm

Maybe there's a cure for cancer on one of these moons around here. If not, we can surely look around for resources to mine. There's all sorts of things to discover. There's possibly things around here that will help us travel outside the solar system.

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 08:54 PM

Quote:

While the peak moves faster than light speed, the total energy of the pulse does not. This means Einstein's relativity is preserved, so do not expect super-fast starships or time machines anytime soon.

An interesting read nonetheless.

I would like to see more references, though, beyond "Laura Lee News"

Mr Mephisto

Phaenx · 12-03-2003, 09:05 PM

They referenced this artice from newscientist: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992796

Also take a look here: http://www.howstuffworks.com/news-item6.htm

Electronic signals, but they broke the speed of light nonetheless.

Liquor Dealer · 12-04-2003, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
This, I just don't understand.

Are you being sarcastic? Perhaps a little bitter?

If so, I think you've missed my point entirely. Do you know what "Devil's Advocate" means?

Mr Mephisto

Yeah, I know exactly what Devil's Advocate is - and, if in your view, we ever do anything right, I hope you let us know!

2wolves · 12-04-2003, 05:58 AM

Benefits to mankind derived from space exploration: We dream larger dreams and aspire to greater deeds.

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” - Robert Browning

The 'law of unintended results' rules basic science R&D. All we are sure of is that basic R&D always pays off, not to spec, but always pays off.

2Wolves

Ustwo · 12-04-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Meh. We can't even take care of one rock in space, why should we go despoiling more? I say solve the problems on one planet before we go starting problems on another planet. (Or a moon.)

Since the moon is a lifeless rock, there won't be anything for environmentalists to whine about, though I'm sure they will try. If the criteria for exploration and expansion was solving all of the worlds problems, we would have never left the savanna.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-04-2003, 06:59 AM

I say terraform Mars, deplete its resources, terraform Earth, deplete resources, terraform Mars, deplete resources. Planetary ping-pong.

Deplete, rinse, repeat.

We'll be good until the sun blows up.

oldman2003 · 12-04-2003, 08:48 AM

I'm all for going back to the moon...I hope they don't land on some "private property"...
http://www.lunarlandowner.com/property_info.htm

Averett · 12-04-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Meh. We can't even take care of one rock in space, why should we go despoiling more? I say solve the problems on one planet before we go starting problems on another planet. (Or a moon.)

I agree.

Can't the money be better served to solve problems we have here?

This is all a competition.... China is lookin ready to go to the moon, so we have to do it first? Or again? I mean, did we even get there in the first place? That's another argument though, of course.

Lebell · 12-04-2003, 09:41 AM

Taking care of our problems here is a great idea and the first thing we need to do is SURVIVE as a species.

Unfortunately, all our eggs are in one basket here on mother Earth.

We need to get out into space!!!

Averett · 12-04-2003, 09:53 AM

Yeah, but what if we put all of our eggs into the space basket, and end up crushing them?

Phaenx · 12-04-2003, 09:59 AM

Competition is good in some ways, we made a lot of cool stuff during the cold war.

There's no way you're going to solve our problems here by throwing money at it, we've tried that before and the problems worth solving never get solved.

Take money out of education I say. Give every kid a book and their parents a cudgel of some sort. That will motivate them to learn. I'll be busy brooding in my castle, on Mars.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-04-2003, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Averett
Yeah, but what if we put all of our eggs into the space basket, and end up crushing them?

We aren't putting all our eggs there, just a few here and a few there. We are diversifying, exploring, and expanding.

Phaenx · 12-04-2003, 10:08 AM

Eggs are overrated anyhow.

irateplatypus · 12-04-2003, 04:08 PM

man, i hope there is a new drive and purpose for NASA coming down the pipelines or even a signal of the commercialization of space exploration. i feel like with a bit of direction and an overarching goal we can get so much more progress and value for our dollar than we are getting from NASA these days.

2wolves · 12-04-2003, 07:06 PM

Commercial micro-gravity space uses:

Rollerball for the new century!

Survivor. Find your own damn air!

Cotton candy of the gods.

McJobs in McSpace.

2Wolves

Mephisto2 · 12-04-2003, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Yeah, I know exactly what Devil's Advocate is - and, if in your view, we ever do anything right, I hope you let us know!

I still have no idea what you're talking about mate...

By "we" do you mean America?

Does my playing Devil's Advocate offend you? Would you prefer if no one asked the hard questions or required people to justify their decisions? Should we all (globally) get down on bended knee and kiss George W Bush's foot?

You really did miss the point.

Your sarcasm here is misplaced and, quite frankly, fell flat on its face, so to speak.

But hey, thanks for participating! :-)

Mr Mephisto

Yakk · 12-04-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Meh. We can't even take care of one rock in space, why should we go despoiling more? I say solve the problems on one planet before we go starting problems on another planet. (Or a moon.)

Um, I don't care if a planet is ruined.

I care about people, and to a lesser extent ecologies.

You really value the comfort of rocks on the moon more than you do people?

MSD · 12-04-2003, 08:19 PM

Good to hear that we're expanding our horizons once again. I would love to see a man walk on the moon live (almost) on TV.

2wolves · 12-05-2003, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yakk
Um, I don't care if a planet is ruined.

I care about people, and to a lesser extent ecologies.

You really value the comfort of rocks on the moon more than you do people?

Ruined planet = no people

Humans can not exist without a viable biosphere.

2Wolves

12-03-2003, 11:48 AM	#3 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I want to vacation on Mars. I'm excited for this. I'm glad he's pushing the importance of Space exploration. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

12-03-2003, 11:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
pyraxis Tilted Location: Somewhere between Arborea and Bytopia	I'm all for the commercialization of the space program. It's not really going to explode until people can make a profit on it. Billboards on spaceships may be ugly, but if it gets us to Mars first, it's worth it. __________________ "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." -Emerson

12-03-2003, 12:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	"Mars Needs Conservatives!" Ok, time to see the vision thing. I hope its for manned flights and not robots. Will wait until the speech is up before praise or fault is offered. 2Wolves __________________ Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

12-03-2003, 07:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Meh. We can't even take care of one rock in space, why should we go despoiling more? I say solve the problems on one planet before we go starting problems on another planet. (Or a moon.) __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

12-03-2003, 09:05 PM	#21 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	They referenced this artice from newscientist: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992796 Also take a look here: http://www.howstuffworks.com/news-item6.htm Electronic signals, but they broke the speed of light nonetheless. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

12-03-2003, 11:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Agreed. We have realized many benefits from the space program. I want to see a national objective of landing humans on mars by 2010.

12-03-2003, 01:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	If it is true than i am excited. Maybe one day i'll be able to see the earth from the outside.

12-03-2003, 03:38 PM	#10 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Wow, that is the best list of advancements we achieved through the space program I have ever seen. It makes the links I have for it look pathetic. That just earned a spot in my bookmarks for the next time someone asks me that question. VELCRO!

12-04-2003, 05:58 AM	#23 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Benefits to mankind derived from space exploration: We dream larger dreams and aspire to greater deeds. "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” - Robert Browning The 'law of unintended results' rules basic science R&D. All we are sure of is that basic R&D always pays off, not to spec, but always pays off. 2Wolves __________________ Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

12-04-2003, 06:59 AM	#25 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I say terraform Mars, deplete its resources, terraform Earth, deplete resources, terraform Mars, deplete resources. Planetary ping-pong. Deplete, rinse, repeat. We'll be good until the sun blows up. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

12-04-2003, 08:48 AM	#26 (permalink)
oldman2003 Crazy Location: Over the Rainbow	I'm all for going back to the moon...I hope they don't land on some "private property"... http://www.lunarlandowner.com/property_info.htm

12-04-2003, 09:41 AM	#28 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Taking care of our problems here is a great idea and the first thing we need to do is SURVIVE as a species. Unfortunately, all our eggs are in one basket here on mother Earth. We need to get out into space!!! __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-04-2003, 09:53 AM	#29 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	Yeah, but what if we put all of our eggs into the space basket, and end up crushing them? __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

12-04-2003, 09:59 AM	#30 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Competition is good in some ways, we made a lot of cool stuff during the cold war. There's no way you're going to solve our problems here by throwing money at it, we've tried that before and the problems worth solving never get solved. Take money out of education I say. Give every kid a book and their parents a cudgel of some sort. That will motivate them to learn. I'll be busy brooding in my castle, on Mars. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

12-04-2003, 10:08 AM	#32 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Eggs are overrated anyhow. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

12-04-2003, 04:08 PM	#33 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	man, i hope there is a new drive and purpose for NASA coming down the pipelines or even a signal of the commercialization of space exploration. i feel like with a bit of direction and an overarching goal we can get so much more progress and value for our dollar than we are getting from NASA these days. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

12-04-2003, 07:06 PM	#34 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Commercial micro-gravity space uses: Rollerball for the new century! Survivor. Find your own damn air! Cotton candy of the gods. McJobs in McSpace. 2Wolves __________________ Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

12-04-2003, 08:19 PM	#37 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Good to hear that we're expanding our horizons once again. I would love to see a man walk on the moon live (almost) on TV.