Ustwo

True, the Green, Commies, and Luddites are angry too

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

2wolves

Also the psycho right is a bit miffed.

http://cbs11tv.com/investigations/lo...330180036.html

2Wolves

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Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

kandayin

Politics gets very sad when every move is considered a move toward the election.
If you need to say what the 40% want to hear to get elected, I think it's definitely not worth it.

Sparhawk

89% approval rating in March
52% approval rating in November

Pretty self-explanatory...

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

lurkette

Approval ratings are tricky to interpret (lies, damned lies, and statistics).

One, it depends on who's asking the question. Various polls use different questions, different wordings, different methodologies, have different samples (registered voters vs. adults nationwide), etc.

Two, "presidential approval" usually falls into two categories: your approval of the president as a person, and the approval of the president's job performance. I think, regardless of the absolute numbers, it's pretty clear that the president's JOB approval ratings are falling, although they seem to be holding steady somewhere on average in the mid-50s over the past few weeks (pollingreport.com moved this info - can anybody find a similar poll tracking site with this info?). His personal approval ratings have traditionally been slightly higher than his job approval ratings.

Three, it's not just his approval ratings that are important, but also his DISapproval ratings, which have been climbing steadily. You have fewer and fewer people who are "uncommitted," and more of them are falling into the "disapprove" category than the approve category.

Four, as someone pointed out, absolute numbers are less important than trends, and he seems to be trending down or holding steady, though things can change in a matter of weeks depending on circumstances.

Five, right now, regardless of approval ratings, Gallup's predicting an even race in 2004 with an as-yet-unnamed democrat. Doesn't matter if you approve or not if you don't go vote.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

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Ustwo

Just to update the figures....

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Sparhawk

Gallup polls are fun:

<a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/stateNation/">Gallop's State of the Nation</a>

George W. Bush Approval Rating

50% Approve
47% Disapprove

2003 Nov 14-16

"State of the Country" Satisfaction Rating

44% Satisfied
54% Dissatisfied

2003 Nov 3-5

Economic Confidence Ratings

30% Excellent/Good
70% Only fair/Poor

2003 Nov 3-5

We're due for another one from gallup in the next several days...

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Tman144

Hooray for propaganda! Anyone who doesn't agree with the president must actually hate America. They're all Communists, Hippies, Terrorists, Islamofactists, or whatever other group the Republicians try and use to demonize anyone who disagrees with them.

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"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

Ustwo

Thats just for the leftist elites who seem to hate Bush and for them, it appliles.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Tman144

Nobody in American politics hates America. Thats the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You make it sound like there a bunch of liberals plotting a way to "bring down" America.

Elite Leftist #1 - "Our plan to destroy America is going as planed!"
Elite Leftist #2 - "Yes, then all of our money and status will be completly useless! Ha Ha Ha!"

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"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

irateplatypus

tman144, i don't think that is necessarily true in all respects. there are plenty of people (extreme left elitists as well as right-wing extremists) who won't admit to hating America, but they do admit to undermining values that the United States have stood/fought for during our history. So, no... they don't hate America's name, or her wealth... but they sometimes do hate what she can represent or stand for. But yes, there are people who deeply hate America if you define America by what she historically holds as her values.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

onetime2

Yep. That's the trend I was talking about. Throw in that when he's put against the Dem candidates he is by far the choice of those polled.

Not long ago there was a thread which showed that it was around 50/50 that people would choose "anyone" over Bush for reelection. Apparently it was "anyone" except the Dem candidates.

While I am not a big fan of polls to draw specific conclusions, they can be useful when combined with other observations for general trends.

Anyone who thinks that Bush has been slipping in his approval in the last couple of weeks hasn't been paying attention. The prescription plan, his trip to Iraq, an improving economy, even his revocation of steel tariffs have made him look Presidential. His Democratic rivals have had most of their strategies gutted by the economic strength and it's leaving them with only Iraq and Afghanistan to talk about. Unfortunately for the Dems, that is not enough to oust Bush.

Like him or not, Bush has not let the Iraq/Afghanistan situations be the sole focus of his administration. This also takes away the Dems ability to say "he's neglecting domestic policy".

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Bookman

I dont hate anyone but I can see why one would hate GW.
I deal with facts and little speculation.

1. NO real proof of his victory in the election and no real investigation into the theft.

2. No real proof of 9-11 and no real investigation into the allegation.

3. NO real proof of WMD and no real investigation into their existence.

4. A whole lot of proclomation and finger pointing being validated by the above unverified points.

5. He uses the word freedom a lot, when the climate here in the US is like antifreedom...you cant get your point across when/where it matters. (But this has been the same for all presidents).

6. People may hate him because Clinton was up for impeachment for a sexual act while the military is busy fighting in the Middle East for UNVERIFIED reasons.

onetime2

Boy, you are misinformed.

1. He received the most electoral college votes. With the exception of one counting of the votes in Florida Bush won every recount done by certified firms AND countless newspapers. You think they wouldn't have loved to come up with the story that said he actually lost?

2. 9/11 happened and every major intelligence agency and country in the world agrees that it was an Al Qaeda attack. Links between the attackers and Bin Laden have been proven.

3. No proof that they currently exist is absolutely true. The fact that they existed in the past is simple fact. They could not have been used in the Iran/Iraq war if they didn't exist. No investigation into their existence is absolute bull. Teams have been searching for them throughout the conflict.

4. Huh? Details please.

5. What are you not free to do? You're not free to make a point? Feel free, I give you permission, make your points here. Is it that your points can't get across or is it that a majority of people don't agree with them?

6. Clinton was not up for impeachment for a sexual act, he was up because he LIED under oath. Get over the sexual aspect of it. You are denegrating Bush because he allegedly lied about WMDs and yet fully disregard that Clinton blatantly lied?

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Bookman

1. Prove it.

2. Prove it.

3. Well there needs to be proof to invade no?!?!?

4. Read again, GW has blamed and accused on info which has not been proven.

5. Really?? Google the terms "Ellen Mariani"

6. Pure semantics, the point is "LIE". Lie about a blowjob or a war.

The point is things are not adding up and we are headed into dangerous territory in the world. A lot of people believe without PROOF!

archer2371

I tend to agree with Conclamo Ludus on this one. Hate will not get Bush out of office, it will only drive those swing voters away. If a Democratic candidate wants to win the elections they need to take lessons from Clinton. Economic Conservative-people like their tax cuts and generally, most are economic conservatives. Social liberal-everyone is a social liberal to some degree, and a Republican Congress was able to keep Clinton's laws pretty much middle of the road (tho I disagree with Don't Ask Don't Tell and the Marriage Tax). So far, there isn't really a candidate that exemplifies what a good politician Clinton was. Back in '92 the GHWB Camp tried to portray Clinton as a dumb ol' boy from Arkansas, that backfired big time. '96, Dole's camp tried to do some more, criticizing the person. Not to mention Perot helped to suck some votes away from the two candidates (Clinton never got 50% of the vote if I may remind the people on this board). Also, the Dems are using a shotgun approach to politics, they're going wholesale instead of retail (lots and lots of people compared to good service to an individual in a line). Bush is taking lessons from Reagan on this one, he has a 6,000,000 name e-mail list in which to run a part of his campaign. Clinton won because he focused on issues, not people, if the Dems do that again, Bush is gone. But it's not happening, none of the Dems seem to have the ability to retail their product to the American people, and Bush does.

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"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

Ustwo

I've decided not to be mean, though it was very, very, hard for me. I think I'm growing as a person, that or I'm just sick of being warned

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Bookman

Everytime, it is perpetual...seriously, one can't have dialogue about this issue without meeting people who will begin by trying to prove or illustrate how stupid/crazy my questions sound.

Where is the proof? Are we to believe whatever we are told?

If it has been proven, why have the people's investigation been blocked?

Happyland

Humbra, pokemon is a slave trader and pikochu is a slave owner . . . lets keep this crazy train rolling

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someone else here must like Walton & Johnson too

onetime2

I guess the only way you will believe anything is if you see it yourself, or perhaps only if the results agree with your predetermined "truth". Unbelievable can be used to describe more than just the reporting you seem to doubt.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

onetime2

Agree with a fair number of your points but Bush has done a good job of eliminating the issues the Dems could use. The economy is gaining and people know it. Medicine for old people is good. National Debt doesn't get people out to vote.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

irateplatypus

i've got to say it...

some of the posters on the board have really crossed the line IMHO. why does every thread have to devolve into more Bush bashing? ok, you don't like bush... we get it. we ALLLLLLLL get it.

from stupid, to babykiller, to fascist, to moron, to a horseman in the apocalypse, to hick to warmongerer... it has all been said. we've all read it hundreds of times. do you get it? nothing is left. why say it over and over still?

there isn't a person alive who i would say those things about, yet some of you feel fully qualified in your presumably average lives to criticize the President of the United States in such familiar terms.

there is certainly room to disagree with the President. i'm a conservative and i do myself at times. i'm not advocating that he be given a pass... the President should be held to the highest level of intellectually honest scrutiny. the problem comes in when you do not afford the President the same level of respect the mods require you to display to other TFP posters.

if you're a poster who does this chronically (and there are many out there), please rethink what you're adding to the TFP community. if you decide to keep on doing this, at least don't be pretentious enough to complain about the mudslinging in politics. don't martyr yourself, you are part of the problem.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Lebell

Irate,

I'll simply point out that you've ressurected a thread that was essentially dead.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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queedo

it's human nature to dislike somebody who doesn't share your views. I really disliked the arch criminal Bill Clinton and I can understand but I don't agree with people who hate Bush

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If you think you can or you can't, you are right!

tecoyah

Ok....Mr. Bush is not my boss....he works for me, therefor I am HIS boss. Still I would not resort to calling one of my employees names. I would however evaluate performance issues and attempt to correct deficiencies. Also Mr. Bush is not family, and I have no idea why I would consider the President as a member of my family in the first place. I would however, be honest and forward with my brother if I felt he was in trouble, as Bush clearly is.
My biggest problem with this administration (and thus Bush) is the poor relations they have with a little place called "the rest of the world". I am embarassed for the bully atmosphere my beloved country has portrayed to the rest of the world.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

onetime2

Civility is civility no matter who you're talking about. Calling people morons, stupid, etc should not be acceptable. Disagree with a policy? Make points about the policy not the person implementing it.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

tecoyah

There is a difference between name calling, and repeating a political statement. While I do agree my post was somewhat borderline, and I suppose an apology would be indicated(sorry), this was meant as a statement about the ability of a politician to articulate, and think on his feet.
I was also trying to set a point, which is:
If a diplomat from another country , feels compelled to risk retribution to express disatisfaction with the intellect of "the leader of the free world", and very few dipute the accuracy of such a statement, there may be some truth to it.
I will be completely honest with you. I do question the capabilities of GWB when it comes to setting the direction of my country, as this is a relatively important priority for the president. My interpretation of Mr. Bushs' intellect was not intended as a personal attack, but as a statement of concern.

I would hope, that the man who is leading this country, is at the very least smarter than myself. And I do believe most Americans would hope for this as well. Again if my post came off as an attack on the president, this was not my main intent (although in reflection, you are correct it was an insult an regratable) But, watching him address the nation was embarassing for me, and that pissed me off.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

onetime2

Someone's ability to handle a press briefing doesn't factor into my calculation about their intellect. I agree that his performance last night in the beginning was pretty bad. IMO, there were points where his intellect and his conviction shone through however.

That forum was one that he's not been heavily exposed to and one that he should be. Towards the end when he got away from trying to stick to the talking points and spoke from his heart and off the cuff he did remarkably better.

While not artfully articulated I enjoyed his story about the conversation with the Japanese leader about North Korea and how he one day hopes a similar conversation could take place with a freely elected Iraqi leader.

I have yet to meet a stupid or moronic military pilot and those types of comments put me (and a lot of others) off as far as further discussions go. You can make some very insightful and interesting comments but, I think, when you throw in the "typical" diatribes about Bush personally it really tarnishes the rest of your points.

As far as the Canadian politician being compelled to risk retribution, I disagree. It wasn't a thought out planned statement but an instance of a politician being off their game and not understanding the implications or impacts of their words. While I don't expect politicians to be perfect, I expect them to be a little bit better at avoiding the blatant pitfalls that have ruined so many other political careers.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Dostoevsky

I don't understand how the average person on this board can call Bush unintelligent. How many of us can boast his educational background? How many of us were smart enough to get elected governor then president? Yes, his family background gave him a huge advantage but there are lots of other privileged children in our society who don't accomplish nearly as much.

I think the left hates Bush because he's a fantastic, charasmatic leader who's about to be re-elected without catering to every popular public opinion and poll.

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Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned.


It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Superbelt

So you are saying we hate him because we "know" he's a great, principled person. Did that even make sense to you as you wrote it?

analog

mattevil

little more than biased but some good points in there http://www.votebushout.biz/99reasons.asp

smooth

How can you not be angry at a time like this?

smooth

Can you please tell me why you think he's charasmatic?

If he was charismatic, I believe the polls would reflect his desires. That is, his charisma would encourage people to agree with him.

I don't like what Schwarzenegger is doing with my state. I don't like the policies he is enacting--but the majority of the voters are behind him. There's no doubt about the fact that polls reflect his agenda, he has popular public officials supporting his programs (and ex-governors, from both sides of the aisle), and his policies are voted into action in one of the more politically liberal states--now that's charisma.

shakran

Well in this case it should. We're talking about the President of the United States. A large part of his job is to project a solid and intelligent image of America to the world. If the man can't string 5 phrases together without stumbling or inventing new words, then he's not doing a very good job. There has not been one single elected president since the advent of radio and television broadcasts that was a terrible public speaker (Note, I said elected, so Ford does not count). Most of them have been pretty damn spectacular public speakers - we're talking FDR, Kennedy, Clinton, Reagan, hell even Nixon came off brilliantly in his "checkers" speech. Public speaking skills have been a big part of most of our presidents. There's a reason for that.

I couldn't stand Reagan myself, but one thing I always gave him credit for was his speaking ability and to make even the most asinine proposals sound pretty damn good to his audience.

Now we've got a guy who, whether he's intelligent or not, sounds like a bumbling fool every time he opens his mouth - especially when it's not scripted as in the Q/A session of the PC. What kind of image does that project of the administration, and of America itself to the rest of the world. When the leader makes an ass of himself, the troops get nervous, and the other side loses respect for you - not that we have much chance of having respect - we lost that pretty well with Bush's handling of post-9/11 foreign policy.

irateplatypus

I would not characterize Bush senior as a spectacular public speaker. He agreed with the joke that english was his second language.

and speaking from years of personal conversations and experience... the troops were much more nervous with the well-spoken Clinton at the helm than they are with the current President.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

shakran

Nor would I, which is why I included the modifier "most" in that part of the statement He was not a BAD public speaker though. W is a BAD public speaker.



when I said troops, that referred to the american public, not the soldiers. And I roundly disagree with you anyway.

Were I a soldier, now would be the time I'd be the most nervous because soldiers now are much more likely to die or get injured than under Clinton. War tends to have that effect.

OFKU0

Especially when the man calling the shots is playing cowboys and indians in Afganistan and good cop bad cop in Iraq.

Sorry, I really don't mean that. Just thought I'd make a funny.

But your point shakran is well taken.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Dostoevsky

Superbelt- Yes, I am saying something like that. Have you ever read 'Atlas Shrugged?' It would help with you understand my statement and your confusion.

Smooth- I will concede that Arnold is a better example of a charasmatic leader than Bush as defined by the 5th edition of 'Leadership in Organizations' by Gary Yukl.

__________________
Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned.


It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

onetime2

Sorry but it still doesn't. I've known fabulous public speakers who are buffoons and I've known incredible thinkers who couldn't talk their way out of a one word argument. Apparently Bush is doing okay in the "perception" category with those who matter since, despite his "stumbling or inventing new words" he's got about half the voters on his side.

As far as the rest of the world judging him on his public speaking, it doesn't matter. It's what goes on in private that influences policy most.

I suspect you would be hard pressed to find any evidence that the troops have (or will) lose respect for Bush based on his public speaking skill.

__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.