Foot in mouth award for Rumseld - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mephisto2 · 12-01-2003, 04:23 PM

Quote:

December 2, 2003 - 10:48AM

US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumseld has won this year's Foot in Mouth award with a spectacular piece of gobbledegook.

His dubious achievement is courtesy of the Plain English Campaign, a British pressure group that lobbies for government, consumer and other public information to be presented in clear, straightforward language.

Judges felt Rumsfeld was speaking as clear as mud when he uttered the following at a press briefing:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."

Rumsfeld faced tough competition for his Foot in Mouth, including actor-turned-California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who said: "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman."

The Foot in Mouth award is to be presented at a ceremony in London tomorrow, along with seven Golden Bulls for corporate gobbledygook and laurels for good use of English by government, civil servants and the media.

AFP

Heh... He really does talk nonesense.

Mr Mephisto

lordjeebus · 12-01-2003, 05:26 PM

For more in this vein, check out The Poetry of D.H. Rumsfeld, which includes the award-winning "The Unknown"

For instance:

Quote:

Clarity

I think what you'll find,
I think what you'll find is,
Whatever it is we do substantively,
There will be near-perfect clarity
As to what it is.

And it will be known,
And it will be known to the Congress,
And it will be known to you,
Probably before we decide it,
But it will be known.

—Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing

Sparhawk · 12-01-2003, 05:38 PM

That quote from Herr Gropenfuhrer is HILARIOUS.

gabshu · 12-01-2003, 06:07 PM

ROFL, he's my neighbour too. Oh I sooo wanna give a copy of this to the secret service guys in front of his house.

The_Dude · 12-01-2003, 06:50 PM

also shows the intelligence of arnold!

Macheath · 12-01-2003, 07:35 PM

I love that one. One of my favourites is the Rumsfeld "moon" doctrine:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2...2_t0820sd.html

Quote:

And the construct I would suggest would be what are the benefits -- what are the advantages and disadvantages of not acting? And of course, the advantage of not acting against the moon would be that no one could say that you acted; they would say, "Isn't that good, you didn't do anything against the moon." The other side of the coin, of not acting against the moon in the event that the moon posed a serious threat, would be that you'd then suffered a serious loss and you're sorry after that's over.

Rumsfeld is quite a character. Damn those tidal forces, damn them to hell!

james t kirk · 12-01-2003, 08:51 PM

Well, check out this link to some doozies our Prime Minister has come up with. Granted, English is not his first language, but he does speak it (english) pretty good.

Some of these are priceless, especially the "proof is a proof" one

http://www.bayrak.ca/politics/chretienquotes.htm

guthmund · 12-01-2003, 09:43 PM

Quote:

And the construct I would suggest would be what are the benefits -- what are the advantages and disadvantages of not acting? And of course, the advantage of not acting against the moon would be that no one could say that you acted; they would say, "Isn't that good, you didn't do anything against the moon." The other side of the coin, of not acting against the moon in the event that the moon posed a serious threat, would be that you'd then suffered a serious loss and you're sorry after that's over.

I think it's obvious that the moon is the next real threat. I mean what better place to harbor terrorists and stockpile weapons of mass destruction. We haven't been there in a while so who knows what could be going on up there.

I think the United States should declare a pre-emptive war on the moon. We'll call it Operation Moonraker (Cause James Bond is sooooo cool) and we'll obliterate that smug rock and free the peoples of coastal nations and states from the opression and tyranny of the moon's tides.

Peryn · 12-01-2003, 11:28 PM

Wow, Rummy pleases me. I think that is hilarious. It sounds confusing ( the known/unknown one), but if you read it through, it makes perfect sense. I think it is more of a brain-twister for the less intelligent, than it is nonsense. While context isn't there, it seems kinda dumb.... if you disect it line by line...it works, and its logical. I like his ability to use and/or abuse the language to make other feel stupid...or better yet when they are so confused they think HE is talking nonsense.

Mephisto2 · 12-02-2003, 12:56 AM

You've got to be kidding Peryn, right?

It doesn't make sense. It's bad English, full of tautological pleonasms.

I honestly worry about you if you think that nonesense "makes perfect sense."

Mr Mephisto

lordjeebus · 12-02-2003, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
You've got to be kidding Peryn, right?

It doesn't make sense. It's bad English, full of tautological pleonisms.

I honestly worry about you if you think that nonesense "makes perfect sense."

Mr Mephisto

It's grammatically odd, and easy to make fun of, but I think I understand what he's trying to say.

A known known: We know that North Korea is in Asia.

A known unknown: We do not know the extent of North Korea's nuclear program.

An unknown unknown: If North Korea had some sort of evil weapon beyond our comprehension, not only do we not know it, we do not even speculate about the fact that we do not know about their weapon.

I think he's trying to say, "we know about some things, don't know about other things, and don't have enough knowledge to even seek to know about yet other things." There's no way I can think of to express this concept without being obtuse.

Mephisto2 · 12-02-2003, 01:48 AM

It's not grammatically odd, it's grammatically incorrect.

It's tautological. It's full of pleonasms. It could even be considered contradictory.

And the fact that you have to try to decipher it to "try to understand" what he's saying is the reason it won the prize.

Bad English, political mumbo-jumbo and the type of nonesense we accept too readily from all our politicians.

Mr Mephisto

onetime2 · 12-02-2003, 05:02 AM

As others have pointed out, it's logical and it can be followed. Not the phrasing I would have used, but to each his own. I always get a kick out of people who criticize others as if they are perfect. There are relatively few people in the world who speak as often to such a large audience on such varied topics.

filtherton · 12-02-2003, 08:49 AM

While the statement does make sense, it also seems overly complicated for something the american public is supposed to understand. Whether he was just trying to be clever or not, why would you go out of your way to over complicate your message thereby turning of the average listener, when allegedly it is to the average listener whom you speak?

Lebell · 12-02-2003, 09:03 AM

Poor phrasing, but very understandable.

It looks like Rumsfield haters are just looking for nits to pick, IMO.

apechild · 12-02-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
full of tautological pleonisms

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
It's tautological. It's full of pleonasms.

Am I the only one who sees the humor in these quotes?

I think Rumsfeld may have some stiff competition from Mr. Mephisto in next year's foot-in-mouth competition.

kel · 12-02-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
You've got to be kidding Peryn, right?

It doesn't make sense. It's bad English, full of tautological pleonasms.

I honestly worry about you if you think that nonesense "makes perfect sense."

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto isn't it something like:

Known Knowns - I know I remembered to take the pill this morning

Known Unknowns - I know I forgot to take the pill this morning.

Unknown Unknowns - I forgot to take the pill this morning, but didn't remember that I forgot, did it with my b/f and got pregnant.

Or maybe I'm just plain crazy like he is.

Peryn · 12-02-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

It's not grammatically odd, it's grammatically incorrect.

It's tautological. It's full of pleonasms.

Why is it gramatically incorrect? Both those long words you used basically mean it repetitive, redundant, and used the same words too many times. I am by no means an english major, but as far as i know, it is not incorrect grammer to be redundant. It is not necessary, and tends to be frowned upon, but i dont think its actually incorrect. Maybe i am wrong, but i think it is odd, but not incorrect. I think it takes a bit of intelligence to be able to string together a logical argument in a way that confuses most people, without using any words that a 5th grader doesn't know, and still makes perfect sense once you analyze it. Of course how else could you explain what he is talking about without sounding dumb?

Also Mephisto, there is a bit of irony in your using "tautological" and "pleonasms" together to describe his writing

splck · 12-02-2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Poor phrasing, but very understandable.

It looks like Rumsfield haters are just looking for nits to pick, IMO.

I don't think it's so much as Rumsfield haters finding a nit to pick but english speakers trying to understand what the hell he's saying.

Mephisto2 · 12-02-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peryn

Also Mephisto, there is a bit of irony in your using "tautological" and "pleonasms" together to describe his writing

Hehe...

You're absolutely correct. Mea culpa. :-)

Some people have lost all persepective in this thread.

1) The award is for people who use language in such a way as to obfuscate or confuse their audience. It's an award for bad English, of which this is a good example.

2) Rumsfeld haters? Now why did I know some NeoCon political hack would step in and accuse someone of knocking or criticising the US?

3) For the record, British politicans and councils have won the prize more than those from the US.

Mr Mephisto

m0ntyblack · 12-02-2003, 01:23 PM

Okay, lets break this down :

Quote:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me,

Okay, so Rumsfeld finds reports that something hasn't happened (ala, we have not found WMDs in Iraq) interesting.

Quote:

because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.

Alright...in a space of 15 words, he uses the word "known" 5 times. Sorry, but in any paper or speech I did in high school, this would have earned an immediate "F." But lets see what he actually means by this: There are things we know.

Quote:

We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.

Okay, he restates himself using "do not know" instead of "unknowns" in the first phrasing. I think this can be summed up quite easily: There are things we don't know.

Quote:

But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."

In a very succint closing sentence, he seems to state: There could be life on other planets. Basically, this is an inherently repetitive statement, there are 2 types of things in the universe, known and unknown. You might know a peice of something, but the rest is unknown, so basically you can toss the final sentence.

So, when it all comes down to it, he would have been better saying, "There are things we know, and things that we don't know." However, how that relates to "reports that say that something hasn't happened" is still a mystery to me.

MB

ashap · 12-02-2003, 01:52 PM

It is all double speak to me. If it is an unknow nunknown, then what the hell is he talking about? If someone speaks but makes no sense, is something know or unknown?
It pretyy hilarious any way you look at it.

Ustwo · 12-02-2003, 02:26 PM

I don't think to many of you have ever read a legal deposition. People talk quite differently then they write, and often ones mouth gets behind ones brain. Its quite amusing to see how many times someone with a M.D. PhD can say 'um' and 'well you know'in a single sentence. We won't even get into how many times people repeat themselves. This whole issue is cute and funny, but meaningless.

Sparhawk · 12-02-2003, 02:45 PM

Great analysis, m0ntyblack.

Moskie · 12-02-2003, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
I don't think to many of you have ever read a legal deposition. People talk quite differently then they write, and often ones mouth gets behind ones brain. Its quite amusing to see how many times someone with a M.D. PhD can say 'um' and 'well you know'in a single sentence. We won't even get into how many times people repeat themselves. This whole issue is cute and funny, but meaningless.

So... what' s your point? Rummy isn't a lawyer, nor does he have a PhD. And I have no reason to think he's such a smart individual that his brain works too fast for his mouth. He said something blatantly stupid. Or at least unbelievably convuluted.

Pardon us for having some fun.

Ustwo · 12-02-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moskie
So... what' s your point? Rummy isn't a lawyer, nor does he have a PhD. And I have no reason to think he's such a smart individual that his brain works too fast for his mouth. He said something blatantly stupid. Or at least unbelievably convuluted.

Pardon us for having some fun.

I rather doubt that this man has a problem thinking faster then he talks.

Quote:

Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on academic and NROTC scholarships (A.B., 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Captain in 1989.

He came to Washington, DC in 1957, during the Eisenhower Administration, to serve as Administrative Assistant to a Congressman. After a stint with an investment banking firm, he was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives from Illinois in 1962, at the age of 30, and was re-elected in 1964, 1966, and 1968.

Mr. Rumsfeld resigned from Congress in 1969 during his fourth term to join the President's Cabinet. From 1969 to 1970, he served as Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity and Assistant to the President. From 1971 to 1972, he was Counsellor to the President and Director of the Economic Stabilization Program. In 1973, he left Washington, DC, to serve as U.S. Ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, Belgium (1973-1974).

In August 1974, he was called back to Washington, DC, to serve as Chairman of the transition to the Presidency of Gerald R. Ford. He then became Chief of Staff of the White House and a member of the President's Cabinet (1974-1975). He served as the 13th U.S. Secretary of Defense, the youngest in the country's history (1975-1977).

From 1977 to 1985 he served as Chief Executive Officer, President, and then Chairman of G.D. Searle & Co., a worldwide pharmaceutical company. The successful turnaround there earned him awards as the Outstanding Chief Executive Officer in the Pharmaceutical Industry from the Wall Street Transcript (1980) and Financial World (1981). From 1985 to 1990 he was in private business.

Mr. Rumsfeld served as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of General Instrument Corporation from 1990 to 1993. General Instrument Corporation was a leader in broadband transmission, distribution, and access control technologies. Until being sworn in as the 21st Secretary of Defense, Mr. Rumsfeld served as Chairman of the Board of Gilead Sciences, Inc., a pharmaceutical company.

Before returning for his second tour as Secretary of Defense, Mr. Rumsfeld chaired the bipartisan U.S. Ballistic Missile Threat Commission, in 1998, and the U.S. Commission to Assess National Security Space Management and Organization, in 2000.

During his business career, Mr. Rumsfeld continued his public service in a variety of Federal posts, including:

Member of the President's General Advisory Committee on Arms Control (1982 - 1986);
Special Presidential Envoy on the Law of the Sea Treaty (1982 - 1983);
Senior Advisor to the President's Panel on Strategic Systems (1983 - 1984);
Member of the U.S. Joint Advisory Commission on U.S./Japan Relations (1983 - 1984);
Special Presidential Envoy to the Middle East (1983 - 1984);
Member of the National Commission on Public Service (1987 - 1990);
Member of the National Economic Commission (1988 - 1989);
Member of the Board of Visitors of the National Defense University (1988 - 1992);
Member of the Commission on U.S./Japan Relations (1989 - 1991); and
Member of the U.S. Trade Deficit Review Commission (1999 - 2000).
While in the private sector, Mr. Rumsfeld's civic activities included service as a member of the National Academy of Public Administration and a member of the boards of trustees of the Gerald R. Ford Foundation, the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, and the National Park Foundation, and as Chairman of the Eisenhower Exchange Fellowships, Inc.

In 1977, Mr. Rumsfeld was awarded the nation's highest civilian award, the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

You can have your fun, but I'd like to see how your resume compares. I'd also like to thank you. I wasn't aware of just how impressive Rumsfeld is until I looked it up to reply to you.

Mephisto2 · 12-02-2003, 03:25 PM

Bloody hell...

You're all MISSING THE POINT.

This has nothing to do with Rumsfeld or American politics.

The "Foot in mouth" award is one of several awarded by the Plain English Society - http://www.plainenglish.co.uk

This award is for "a baffling quote by a public figure". See http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/footinmouth.html for specifics and a list of previous winners.

This is a list of all their awards.

Plain English (the open category)
Inside Write (for internal government documents)
Media (for radio, television and newspapers)
Golden Bulls (for gobbledygook); and
Foot in Mouth (for a baffling quote by a public figure)
The Plain English Web Award

You "Rumsfeld defenders" and "Rumsfeld haters" need to relax.

This years example is a perfect example of a baffling quote by a public figure. If you think otherwise you are being disingenuous.

Mr Mephisto

PS - and yes, I was being pleonastic in my earlier post. This is not the reason Rumsfeld won the award, but it's an example of how even finger pointers like me can mess up...

Lebell · 12-02-2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
... Now why did I know some NeoCon political hack would step in and accuse someone of knocking or criticising the US?...

Hmmm,

I've been called a Satan worshiper, I've been called a baby killer, but this is the first time I've been called a "Neocon political hack".

Mr. Mephisto, nothing could be farther from the truth. And I do not recall saying that anyone in this thread is a "Rumsfeld hater", but I DO believe that this latest is a result of the current trendy US bashing among the leftist intelligentsia.

Certainly it wasn't so hard to understand what Rumsfeld was saying in that quote that you posted that it deserved such an award.

Ironically, the only post that I had to pull out the dictionary for was yours.

Mephisto2 · 12-02-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell Mr. Mephisto, nothing could be farther from the truth. And I do not recall saying that anyone in this thread is a "Rumsfeld hater", but I DO believe that this latest is a result of the current trendy US bashing among the leftist intelligentsia.

You what?!

Did you even check the organisation's web page? Did you check the other awards they give?

Most of the "winners" are British.

This is a perfect example of the hyper-sensitivity of the current right-wing "intelligentsia" (if there's such a thing).

Once again, it's got NOTHING to do with trendy US bashing. It's got everything to do with promoting clearly written or spoken English.

Quote:

Ironically, the only post that I had to pull out the dictionary for was yours.

How is that ironic? The use of certain words is not in question here. Uttering "baffling" statements is. And this year, Rumsfeld won with the nonesense quoted above.

Last year it was actor Richard Gere. In 2001 it was the British artist Tracey Emin. In 2000 it was Alicia Silverstone. In 1999 it was Glen Hoddle, a manager for the UK football team.

Stop! I just realized something!! There's a trendy US actor/BritArt /Soccer bashing conspiracy afoot... All troops to the barricades!!!

Sheesh...

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 12-02-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Bloody hell...

You're all MISSING THE POINT.

This has nothing to do with Rumsfeld or American politics.

Actually I agree with you, and it IS a funny quote, though I think the runner up is a bit better.

2wolves · 12-03-2003, 08:57 AM

"Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me..."
-- Vincini

SLM3 · 12-03-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
"Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me..."
-- Vincini

Brilliant.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-03-2003, 11:45 AM

This is one of the most humorous threads I've read in a while.

I get what Rummy's saying, and I'm still glad it won the award. Its hilarious. I don't think its indicative of his intelligence at all.

Redlemon · 12-03-2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
This years example is a perfect example of a baffling quote by a public figure. If you think otherwise you are being disingenuous.

I still respectfully disagree. It makes complete sense, and I understood it the first time I heard it. I think that the organization picked a poor example just because they wanted to pick on the Bush administration and their policies.

And I say this as a Bush hater.

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redlemon
I think that the organization picked a poor example just because they wanted to pick on the Bush administration and their policies.

Then, my friend, you are the most paranoid, delusional and misguided poster in this thread.

I can see it now...

The Plain English Campaign, with over 3,500 registered supporters in over 70 countries, woke up one day and said "You know what, let's pick on the Americans. Let's pick a perfectly clear and understandable quote from Rumsfeld, because that's a perfect example of good English after all, and give him the award for it! We'll destablise their democracy! We'll show those Americans!!"

Despite the fact that almost everyone agrees that the quote was deserving of the Foot in Mouth Award, you consider it perfectly understandable. OK.

Nope, we're all wrong. You're right. It's a leftist, Euro, anti-US conspiracy...

If what you said above was not so worrying, it would be farcical.

Mr Mephisto

2wolves · 12-03-2003, 01:16 PM

Take all your overgrown infants away somewhere
And build them a home a little place of their own
The Fletcher Memorial
Home for incurable tyrants and kings
And they can appear to themselves every day
On closed circuit t.v.
To make sure they’re still real
It’s the only connection they feel
’ladies and gentlemen, please welcome reagan and haig
Mr. begin and friend mrs. thatcher and paisley
Mr. brezhnev and party
The ghost of mccarthy
The memories of nixon
And now adding colour a group of anonymous latin
American meat packing glitterati’
Did they expect us to treat them with any respect
They can polish their medals and sharpen their
Smiles, and amuse themselves playing games for a while
Boom boom, bang bang, lie down you’re dead
Safe in the permanent gaze of a cold glass eye
With their favourite toys
They’ll be good girls and boys
In the fletcher memorial home for colonial
Wasters of life and limb
Is everyone in?
Are you having a nice time?
Now the final solution can be applied

Conclamo Ludus · 12-03-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redlemon
I still respectfully disagree. It makes complete sense, and I understood it the first time I heard it. I think that the organization picked a poor example just because they wanted to pick on the Bush administration and their policies.

And I say this as a Bush hater.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Then, my friend, you are the most paranoid, delusional and misguided poster in this thread.

I can see it now...

Note to self: Don't respectfully disagree.

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Then, my friend, you are the most paranoid, delusional and misguided poster in this thread.

---SNIP---

If what you said above was not so worrying, it would be farcical.

Mr Mephisto

I guess this didn't come across as the good-natured jibe I had intended. Hopefully this pre-emptive post will address any misunderstandings. I wasn't trying to be insulting.

Having said that, I'm kinda wishing I hadn't even started this thread now. Some people seem to be just waiting for reasons to get their backs up, accuse the world of America-bashing or US-hating or some such nonesense. It's no wonder there is a huge amount of antipathy and, in some circles, down-right animosity towards America. It's a shame really.

Oh well.

Mr mephisto

Redlemon · 12-03-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
I guess this didn't come across as the good-natured jibe I had intended. Hopefully this pre-emptive post will address any misunderstandings. I wasn't trying to be insulting.

Having said that, I'm kinda wishing I hadn't even started this thread now. Some people seem to be just waiting for reasons to get their backs up, accuse the world of America-bashing or US-hating or some such nonesense. It's no wonder there is a huge amount of antipathy and, in some circles, down-right animosity towards America. It's a shame really.

Oh well.

Mr mephisto

I'm cool. But, you did post this under Politics, and therefore the discussion will tend toward Politics. You could have posted it in Humor, or Knowledge, and the responses would have been different.

Mephisto2 · 12-03-2003, 05:10 PM

That's true redlemon.

Oh well. I thought it had a political slant, the current winner being a politican and all, but I didn't expect it to degenerate into the usual Liberal vs NeoCon or America vs Everyone slagging match.

I'm kinda tired of those.

Mr Mephisto

12-01-2003, 05:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	That quote from Herr Gropenfuhrer is HILARIOUS. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

12-01-2003, 06:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
gabshu Psycho Location: The capital of the free world??	ROFL, he's my neighbour too. Oh I sooo wanna give a copy of this to the secret service guys in front of his house. __________________ Go Kool Aid. OH YEAAHH http://www.retrocrush.com/archive2003/koolaid/

12-01-2003, 06:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	also shows the intelligence of arnold! __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

12-01-2003, 11:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	Wow, Rummy pleases me. I think that is hilarious. It sounds confusing ( the known/unknown one), but if you read it through, it makes perfect sense. I think it is more of a brain-twister for the less intelligent, than it is nonsense. While context isn't there, it seems kinda dumb.... if you disect it line by line...it works, and its logical. I like his ability to use and/or abuse the language to make other feel stupid...or better yet when they are so confused they think HE is talking nonsense. __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

12-02-2003, 12:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	You've got to be kidding Peryn, right? It doesn't make sense. It's bad English, full of tautological pleonasms. I honestly worry about you if you think that nonesense "makes perfect sense." Mr Mephisto Last edited by Mephisto2; 12-02-2003 at 01:43 AM..

12-01-2003, 08:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	Well, check out this link to some doozies our Prime Minister has come up with. Granted, English is not his first language, but he does speak it (english) pretty good. Some of these are priceless, especially the "proof is a proof" one http://www.bayrak.ca/politics/chretienquotes.htm

12-02-2003, 01:48 AM	#12 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	It's not grammatically odd, it's grammatically incorrect. It's tautological. It's full of pleonasms. It could even be considered contradictory. And the fact that you have to try to decipher it to "try to understand" what he's saying is the reason it won the prize. Bad English, political mumbo-jumbo and the type of nonesense we accept too readily from all our politicians. Mr Mephisto

12-02-2003, 05:02 AM	#13 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	As others have pointed out, it's logical and it can be followed. Not the phrasing I would have used, but to each his own. I always get a kick out of people who criticize others as if they are perfect. There are relatively few people in the world who speak as often to such a large audience on such varied topics. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

12-02-2003, 08:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	While the statement does make sense, it also seems overly complicated for something the american public is supposed to understand. Whether he was just trying to be clever or not, why would you go out of your way to over complicate your message thereby turning of the average listener, when allegedly it is to the average listener whom you speak?

12-02-2003, 09:03 AM	#15 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Poor phrasing, but very understandable. It looks like Rumsfield haters are just looking for nits to pick, IMO. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-02-2003, 01:52 PM	#22 (permalink)
ashap Crazy Location: Great white north	It is all double speak to me. If it is an unknow nunknown, then what the hell is he talking about? If someone speaks but makes no sense, is something know or unknown? It pretyy hilarious any way you look at it.

12-02-2003, 02:26 PM	#23 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I don't think to many of you have ever read a legal deposition. People talk quite differently then they write, and often ones mouth gets behind ones brain. Its quite amusing to see how many times someone with a M.D. PhD can say 'um' and 'well you know'in a single sentence. We won't even get into how many times people repeat themselves. This whole issue is cute and funny, but meaningless. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-02-2003, 02:45 PM	#24 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	Great analysis, m0ntyblack. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

12-02-2003, 03:25 PM	#27 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Bloody hell... You're all MISSING THE POINT. This has nothing to do with Rumsfeld or American politics. The "Foot in mouth" award is one of several awarded by the Plain English Society - http://www.plainenglish.co.uk This award is for "a baffling quote by a public figure". See http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/footinmouth.html for specifics and a list of previous winners. This is a list of all their awards. Plain English (the open category) Inside Write (for internal government documents) Media (for radio, television and newspapers) Golden Bulls (for gobbledygook); and Foot in Mouth (for a baffling quote by a public figure) The Plain English Web Award You "Rumsfeld defenders" and "Rumsfeld haters" need to relax. This years example is a perfect example of a baffling quote by a public figure. If you think otherwise you are being disingenuous. Mr Mephisto PS - and yes, I was being pleonastic in my earlier post. This is not the reason Rumsfeld won the award, but it's an example of how even finger pointers like me can mess up...

12-03-2003, 08:57 AM	#31 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	"Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me..." -- Vincini __________________ Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

12-03-2003, 11:45 AM	#33 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	This is one of the most humorous threads I've read in a while. I get what Rummy's saying, and I'm still glad it won the award. Its hilarious. I don't think its indicative of his intelligence at all. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

12-03-2003, 01:16 PM	#36 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Take all your overgrown infants away somewhere And build them a home a little place of their own The Fletcher Memorial Home for incurable tyrants and kings And they can appear to themselves every day On closed circuit t.v. To make sure they’re still real It’s the only connection they feel ’ladies and gentlemen, please welcome reagan and haig Mr. begin and friend mrs. thatcher and paisley Mr. brezhnev and party The ghost of mccarthy The memories of nixon And now adding colour a group of anonymous latin American meat packing glitterati’ Did they expect us to treat them with any respect They can polish their medals and sharpen their Smiles, and amuse themselves playing games for a while Boom boom, bang bang, lie down you’re dead Safe in the permanent gaze of a cold glass eye With their favourite toys They’ll be good girls and boys In the fletcher memorial home for colonial Wasters of life and limb Is everyone in? Are you having a nice time? Now the final solution can be applied __________________ Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

12-03-2003, 05:10 PM	#40 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	That's true redlemon. Oh well. I thought it had a political slant, the current winner being a politican and all, but I didn't expect it to degenerate into the usual Liberal vs NeoCon or America vs Everyone slagging match. I'm kinda tired of those. Mr Mephisto