It's a PC Christmas!!!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-20-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

And Joseph went up from Galilee to Bethlehem with Mary, his espoused wife, who was great with child. And she brought forth a son and wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the inn. And the angel of the Lord spoke to the shepherds and said, "I bring you tidings of great joy. Unto you is born a Savior, which is Christ the Lord."

"There's a problem with the angel, "said a Pharisee who happened to be strolling by. As he explained to Joseph, angels are widely regarded as religious symbols, and the stable was on public property where such symbols were not allowed to land or even hover. "And I have to tell you, this whole thing looks to me very much like a Nativity scene," he said sadly. "That's a no-no, too." Joseph had a bright idea. "What if I put a couple of reindeer over there near the ox and ass?" he said, eager to avoid sectarian strife. "That would definitely help," said the Pharisee, who knew as well as anyone that whenever a savior appeared, judges usually liked to be on the safe side and surround it with deer or woodland creatures of some sort. "Just to clinch it, throw in a candy cane and a couple of elves and snowmen, too," he said. "No court can resist that." Mary asked, "What does my son's birth have to do with snowmen?"

"Snowpersons," cried a young woman, changing the subject before it veered dangerously toward religion. Off to the side of the crowd, a Philistine was painting the Nativity scene. Mary complained that she and Joseph looked too tattered and worn in the picture. "Artistic license," he said. "I've got to show the plight of the haggard homeless in a greedy, uncaring society in winter," he quipped. "We're not haggard or homeless. The inn was just full," said Mary. "Whatever," said the painter.

Two women began to argue fiercely. One said she objected to Jesus' birth "because it privileged motherhood." The other scoffed at virgin births, but said that if they encouraged more attention to diversity in family forms and the rights of single mothers, well, then, she was all for them. "I'm not a single mother," Mary started to say, but she was cut off by a third woman who insisted that swaddling clothes are a form of child abuse, since they restrict the natural movement of babies.

With the arrival of 10 child advocates, all trained to spot infant abuse and manger rash, Mary and Joseph were pushed to the edge of the crowd, where arguments were breaking out over how many reindeer (or what mix of reindeer and seasonal sprites) had to be installed to compensate for the infant's unfortunate religious character. An older man bustled up, bowling over two merchants, who had been busy debating whether an elf is the same as a fairy and whether the elf/fairy should be shaking hands with Jesus in the crib or merely standing to the side, jumping around like a sports mascot. "I'd hold off on the reindeer," the man said, explaining that the use of asses and oxen as picturesque backdrops for Nativity scenes carries the subliminal message of human dominance. He passed out two leaflets, one denouncing manger births as invasions of animal space, the other arguing that stables are "penned environments" where animals are incarcerated against their will. He had no opinion about elves or candy canes.

Signs declaring "Free the Bethlehem 2" began to appear, referring to the obviously exploited ass and ox. Someone said the halo on Jesus' head was elitist. Mary was exasperated. "And what about you, old mother?" she said sharply to an elderly woman. "Are you here to attack the shepherds as prison guards for excluded species, maybe to complain that singing in Latin identifies us with our Roman oppressors, or just to say that I should have skipped patriarchal religiosity and joined some dumb new-age goddess religion?" "None of the above," said the woman, "I just wanted to tell you that the Magi are here."

Sure enough, the three wise men rode up. The crowd gasped, "They're all male!" And "Not very multicultural!" "Balthasar here is black," said one of the Magi. "Yes, but how many of you are gay or disabled?" someone shouted. A committee was quickly formed to find an impoverished lesbian wise-person among the halt and lame of Bethlehem. A calm voice said, "Be of good cheer, Mary, you have done well and your son will change the world." At last, a sane person, Mary thought. She turned to see a radiant and confident female face. The woman spoke again: "There is one thing, though. Religious holidays are important, but can't we learn to celebrate them in ways that unite, not divide? For instance, instead of all this business about 'Gloria in excelsis Deo,' why not just 'Season's Greetings'?" Mary said, "You mean my son has entered human history to deliver the message, 'Hello, it's winter'?" "That's harsh, Mary," said the woman. "Remember, your son could make it big in midwinter festivals, if he doesn't push the religion thing too far. Centuries from now, in nations yet unborn, people will give each other pricey gifts and have big office parties on his birthday. That's not chopped liver." "Let me get back to you," Mary said.

I'm posting after watching the O' Reilly Factor last night. Now if I remember correctly, not many of you care for him here, but to the point...

Bill was interviewing a former New York City mayoral and they were discussing how in public schools its ok to publically display manora (jews), the crescent flag of Islam for Ramadan, they acknowledge the MADE UP holiday of quanza, but it is against regulation to put up a nativity scene. I mean the gaul, to put up a nativity scene for a NATIONAL/ FEDERAL holiday.

Here is the transcript from the interview...
http://www.oreillyfactor.com/story/0...103650,00.html

Quote:

BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the Unresolved Problems segment tonight, the secular assault on Christmas continues all over the USA. Tomorrow night, we'll tell you about how the ACLU (search) is attacking Christmas in Colorado.

But tonight, the New York City school system is involved in a court case. Under current city policy, Jewish menorahs are allowed to be displayed for Hanukkah (search) and the Islamic star and crescent can be shown during Ramadan (search).

But the nativity scene (search) cannot be shown during the Christmas season. Now as you may know, Christmas is a federal holiday signed into law by President U.S. Grant (search). The day honors the philosophy of Jesus. With us now is Mark Green, former New York city public advocate who did run for mayor, maybe mayor some day here in the city.

All right, now look, the Thomas Moore Center (search) is suing the city. The city will not provide any spokespeople, including Mayor Bloomberg (search). They're all frightened to death, because they know they were on the wrong side of this issue.

MARK GREEN, FMR. NYC PUBLIC ADVOCATE: Glad to speak for Mayor Bloomberg in this one...

O'REILLY: All right. You got a menorah, you got the star and crescent, but you can't have a nativity scene on a federal holiday named Christmas. It's insane, right?

GREEN: The opposite of insane. They're not attacking Christianity, they're supporting the First Amendment. Bill, there's a time and a place for everything. And I happen to have friends who celebrate Christmas. What a holiday.

They have family dinners. The next morning under the tree, our presents. I don't remember that...

O'REILLY: All right.

GREEN: And so, if you're spending public money on public education, somebody has to draw a line, difficult as it is. So they decided -- they could be wrong -- let's have a...

O'REILLY: They could be wrong.

GREEN: ... let's have Christmas trees and Santas in schools because they're slightly religious but largely secular.

O'REILLY: Yes. Is it -- is it Santamas? Is it Christmas tree? What -- what's the name of the holiday, Mr. Green?

GREEN: Santa Goldberg.

O'REILLY: No. What's the name of holiday?

GREEN: Well...

O'REILLY: What's the name of the federal holiday, sir?

GREEN: Well, it's called Christmas.

O'REILLY: OK, thank you. That's where we want to start. And it's based upon the philosophy of Jesus Christ, correct? Am I wrong here? That's what the holiday celebrates, the birth of Jesus Christ.

GREEN: We should all celebrate all the holidays.

O'REILLY: No. Let's just walk through this. You just admitted the federal holiday was named Christmas. How could you not? It's based upon the birth of Jesus Christ, correct?

GREEN: Yes.

O'REILLY: So you cannot depict that birth, which a federal holiday is based on. That is insane, sir.

GREEN: Now would you consider it insane if you went to a public school that was 2 percent Jewish and 98 percent Christian and only Jewish symbols were shown, in effect proselytizing, you'd say, excuse me, wait a second. I don't want to be proselytized by another religion. And so there's a time and a place for everything, Bill.

O'REILLY: That's not what's happening here.

GREEN: Let me just finish. One second. One second.

O'REILLY: You have the Menorah...

GREEN: Adults...

O'REILLY: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going way off the point. You have a Menorah...

GREEN: Adults are different than children.

O'REILLY: No, no. You have a Menorah for Hanukkah.

GREEN: Right, right.

O'REILLY: I'm fine with it. You have a crescent and star, OK, for Ramadan. I'm fine with it.

GREEN: Right.

O'REILLY: You don't have the nativity scene which the Christmas holiday is based on and everybody gets off on the public school system. That is prejudiced against Christians, insane, and insulting to Christians, and every Christian should be outraged about it.

GREEN: Our country is 95 percent Christian.

O'REILLY: Yes.

GREEN: I was a city official, and I got a hundred thousand complaints over 10 years about all kinds of city services. Not one person said, you know, one of the biggest problems in New York is those Jews like Mayor Bloomberg and Joe Klein trying to trick 95 percent majority Christians into converting to Judaism. Bill, get a life. This is absolutely ludi -- I understand we have to have an interesting topic to talk about.

O'REILLY: They're going to lose this lawsuit.

GREEN: Well, one second. Would you agree that no -- nothing touching religious symbols should be -- so it should be equal. So...

O'REILLY: Look...

GREEN: One second. The...

O'REILLY: ... you don't have to believe -- no, no, no, no. No one second.

GREEN: Do you agree -- no Menorah, no nativity scene, no Christmas tree?

O'REILLY: If the federal holiday -- if the federal holiday is repealed, all right, then I'll say fine. It's the federal holiday of Christmas based on the birth of Christ. You can't show that birth. That's insane.

And you know what really bothers me about this?

GREEN: What, Bill?

O'REILLY: The Menorah is up. The crescent and star is up. And the nativity scene can be up because you can admire Jesus the philosopher without believing that he's God as millions of Americans do. It's insulting.

I'll give you the last word.

GREEN: Kids in school can pray. Kids in school can pray silently. They can pray any time they want. Except during classroom hours, they're supposed to learn history. You want to practice your religion, do it on your time in your own church, synagogue, or mosque.

O'REILLY: All right. Difference between a philosopher and a religious person.

GREEN: The ayatollahs of the Republican Party support your point of view...

O'REILLY: Oh, come on. He'll lose...

GREEN: ... and I support the Bill of Rights.

O'REILLY: All right. Mr. Green, thanks very much.

So does anyone besides me think that this is just insane? Or if you agree with the status quo could you enlighten me? As most of you know I am religious. I do however feel that it is not my business to try and convert anyone who believes differently. I do however not like it when people of the same faith as me get dicked because some PC secular christophobes start making stinks over some of the most ridiculous shit. If you aren't going to celebrate Christmas in public schools then should not the same be expected of Jews, Muslims, and phantom African's (in regard to Qwanza) beliefs?

Lebell · 11-20-2003, 06:10 PM

Asinine.

Hypocritical.

Stupid.

These are a few of the words that came to mind when reading that it is ok to display a Menorah during Hanukkah (religious) and a Star and Crescent during Ramadan (religious) but not a nativity during Christmas.

It is as eggregious religious bigotry as all the other bigotry we say we are against, yet very few voices seemed raised in protest.

Why is that?

Can anyone tell me?

2wolves · 11-20-2003, 06:17 PM

January 1, 2004 - New Year's Day

January 19, 2004 - Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday (observed)

February 16, 2004 - President's Day

May 31, 2004 - Memorial Day (observed)

June 14, 2004 - Flag Day

July 4, 2004 - Independence Day

September 1, 2004 - Labor Day

November 11, 2003 - Veteran's Day

November 27, 2003 - Thanksgiving

December 25, 2003 - Christmas

One of these is not like the others. Can you pick the U.S national holiday that has nothing to do with honoring the country and predates the invasion of North America by Europeans.

Egregious? All depends on your perspective.

2Wolves

Lebell · 11-20-2003, 06:39 PM

If the rules were evenly applied, I would not complain, but they are not.

If there is a problem, then remove Christmas from the Federal holiday list and either a) allow it's trappings to be displayed in schools during it's holiday like other religions or b) do not display ANY religious symbols.

You can't have it both ways.

Macheath · 11-20-2003, 07:32 PM

There's no info in the O' Reilly thing about size and I think size could be an issue here, though nobody talks about it in tilted sexuality.

Are we talking a nativity scene postcard versus a big iron star and crescent? Or are we (perhpas more likely) talking about an expensive outdoors nativity scene with a lifesize fibreglass baby jesus and flashing lights versus a cardbard cutout menorah posted on a noticeboard.

Just keep it modest, make everything the same approximate scale and monetary value, leave room for all the other religions and stop moaning about it.

If you REALLY need a truck and five workers to put up the Christmas display, you better be ready to dedicate those exact same resources when Chinese New Year rolls round or someone wants a big flashy interactive 'life of Muhammad' display because I think everyone's got that right to equal representation.

Either that or don't bother with any of it.

Phaenx · 11-20-2003, 08:37 PM

The ACLU: How the Grinches Stole Christmas.

I don't like these guys, they're too good at being destructive. Bill-O's probably got it right as well, the problem seems to be the loony judges they exploit.

Bill O'Rights · 11-21-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
If the rules were evenly applied, I would not complain, but they are not. You can't have it both ways.

*Jumps up, points and shouts at Lebell* EXACTLY!!!

None of it belongs in a public school. Not crosses, menorahs, crescets nor pentagrams. I'm most definately an equal opportunity scrooge. I'll shout every bit as loud for the removal of the religious trappings of Judaism, Islam, Wicca, or any other religion, as I did/do for those of the Christian faith. Articles of any religious faith have no place in public buildings, that all faiths have equal access and right to.

This is probably not the direction that you wanted to go, Lebell. And I do apologize for borrowing your soapbox for my own agenda, but the point had to be made.

Charlatan · 11-21-2003, 07:49 AM

Religion has no place in the public school system.

That said, what do you do with the secular celebration of Christmas? Regardless of what Christmas is to Christians it has become a winter celebration where we exchange presents, typically under a tree...

Ramadan and Hanukkah are fundamentally religious in nature and therefore different in my mind.

On top of this, part of what I see school should be teaching is an understanding of other cultures. Teaching kids what other cultures do to celebrate is an interesting study...

Being politically correct can be messy can't it?

Conclamo Ludus · 11-21-2003, 07:55 AM

Its all or nothing. Either anyone should be able to display whatever they declare is a symbol of their religion or philosophy, or no one should at all. The line has to be drawn. I lean more towards letting people display something, in an organized manner. Religion is a part of people's culture and a part of their identity. There should be some outlet for that in schools so that they can share with on another what their lives are about. If we take out religion, soon we'll take out culture, music, different interests, individualism, and education altogether. Let people display something, but have an organized method of getting each one an equal amount of display space. Maybe have a room or a display case, that each holiday can fill. Equal space. Equal time. That's how I would deal with it.

2wolves · 11-21-2003, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlatan
Religion has no place in the public school system.

That said, what do you do with the secular celebration of Christmas? Regardless of what Christmas is to Christians it has become a winter celebration where we exchange presents, typically under a tree...

Originally it was a winter solstice celebration. Just as Easter falls on a pre-christian, a.k.a. pagan, holiday schedule so does Christmas. Which prompts the question; why can't these folk get their own holidays? (a bit tongue in cheek)

2Wolves

Peetster · 11-21-2003, 08:08 AM

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

I'm not sure how we got from there to the current popular interpretation of "seperation of church and state". The goal was to avoid a state sponsored religion: an Official United States Recognized Religion. So no mention of Christianity. Instead, kids today get to hear about the traditions and rich 37 year old heritage surrounding Kwanza.

OFKU0 · 11-21-2003, 08:59 AM

See what happens when the unfounded repeated shouts of discrimination and racism by minorities go unchecked because of political correctness.

Next fucking thing will be the intolerant message Easter sends to those of other religions. Better stop selling chocolate bunnies for fear of offending.

Conclamo Ludus · 11-21-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OFKU0
See what happens when the unfounded repeated shouts of discrimination and racism by minorities go unchecked because of political correctness.

Next fucking thing will be the intolerant message Easter sends to those of other religions. Better stop selling chocolate bunnies for fear of offending.

There's this horrible pendulum that swings back and forth. I think that the extreme PC phase that we are going through will eventually find some sort of balance. At least I hope so. The burden of toleration is that you have to tolerate the intolerants to stay true to your word.

Bill O'Rights · 11-21-2003, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus

The burden of toleration is that you have to tolerate the intolerants to stay true to your word.

I like that!

*rumages through desk drawer to find a scrap of paper to write Conclamo Ludus's quote on*

Conclamo Ludus · 11-21-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
I like that!

*rumages through desk drawer to find a scrap of paper to write Conclamo Ludus's quote on*

Thanks, maybe I'll throw that in my sig one of these days. I think its something that we often forget when the PC sword comes swinging. When you attempt to change an idea that is intolerant, it unfortunately can give it too much credibility than it is worth, and this will end up fueling it. If intolerant ideas are left alone they seem to eventually burn themselves out without any opposition to fuel their ideas.

guthmund · 11-21-2003, 01:36 PM

That was clever Conclamo Ludis. I will have to remember that for future discussions.

I like how it's described as "an assualt on Christmas" like there is some great secular army devoted to destroying the trappings of Christianity nationwide and they will stop at nothing.

give me a break....

I think it has more to do with the extremes of political correctness than with systematically destroying Christian philosophy.

Anyway, Either you have it all or you have none. There is no in between, there is no context, and there are no "special circumstances" If you're going to allow Islam, Judaism, Neo-Paganism, and so forth to have their foot in the door then you have to allow Christianity. It would be better to do away with all of this and avoid this nonsense altogether.

bonbonbox · 11-23-2003, 09:56 PM

When the government stops getting to decide what is and isn't a religion I will become interested in such matters like nativity scenes and the cop that wore a cross. Till then there are more important matters at hand like reclaiming simple freedoms.

MuadDib · 11-23-2003, 10:19 PM

I agree, its alright to teach *about* religion in schools but it isn't right to decorate for and celebrate any exclusively religious holiday. However, I am slightly confused as to why the first article is here. I understand that we all agree that there should be no menorahs or stars and crescents or nativity scenes. So are we not for a PC Christmas? At least in our schools?

Mephisto2 · 11-23-2003, 10:21 PM

What the hell is Kwanza?!

Mr Mephisto

MuadDib · 11-23-2003, 10:28 PM

Kwanza is not a religious holiday. It was established in America back in 1966 and is a day for African Americans to celebrate their heritage. I think its fine to celebrate in schools because it is about heritage, much like Columbus Day (also, technically, a made up holiday).

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-23-2003, 11:02 PM

I came across it while looking up some of the actions the ACLU has taken about Christmas festivities. I found it to be quite humourous.

Sledge · 11-23-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
If you aren't going to celebrate Christmas in public schools then should not the same be expected of Jews, Muslims, and phantom African's (in regard to Qwanza) beliefs?

What is a "phantom African"? It sounds scary.

123dsa · 11-24-2003, 06:46 AM

Just another blatant case of minority rule in the US. The vast majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, but we can't do it publically in fear of offending a boisterous minority.

lsd

redravin40 · 11-24-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 123dsa
Just another blatant case of minority rule in the US. The vast majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, but we can't do it publicly in fear of offending a boisterous minority.

lsd

Nobody is stopping you (or anyone else) from celebrating Christmas.
All that is being asked is that it not be an institutionalized religious holiday supported by the US government.
As so many people have pointed out here it should be all (Wiccan, Jewish, Satanist, Muslim, Hindu, etc. etc.) or nothing.
Since doing all is pretty certain to piss someone off (somehow I don't think the good Christians would feel comfortable with a twenty foot maypole or menorah next to their Christmas tree) then nothing seems like a reasonable alternative.

captain · 11-25-2003, 06:13 AM

Purely anti-Christian.

redravin40 · 11-25-2003, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captain
Purely anti-Christian.

Can we please have more then a one line shot?
You will make your point better if you explain your statement and perhaps prove that you had read the other posts to the thread.
There are times when a one line answer is all that is necessary but this is not one of them.

11-20-2003, 06:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Asinine. Hypocritical. Stupid. These are a few of the words that came to mind when reading that it is ok to display a Menorah during Hanukkah (religious) and a Star and Crescent during Ramadan (religious) but not a nativity during Christmas. It is as eggregious religious bigotry as all the other bigotry we say we are against, yet very few voices seemed raised in protest. Why is that? Can anyone tell me? __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-20-2003, 06:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	If the rules were evenly applied, I would not complain, but they are not. If there is a problem, then remove Christmas from the Federal holiday list and either a) allow it's trappings to be displayed in schools during it's holiday like other religions or b) do not display ANY religious symbols. You can't have it both ways. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-20-2003, 08:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	The ACLU: How the Grinches Stole Christmas. I don't like these guys, they're too good at being destructive. Bill-O's probably got it right as well, the problem seems to be the loony judges they exploit. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

11-21-2003, 07:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Religion has no place in the public school system. That said, what do you do with the secular celebration of Christmas? Regardless of what Christmas is to Christians it has become a winter celebration where we exchange presents, typically under a tree... Ramadan and Hanukkah are fundamentally religious in nature and therefore different in my mind. On top of this, part of what I see school should be teaching is an understanding of other cultures. Teaching kids what other cultures do to celebrate is an interesting study... Being politically correct can be messy can't it? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

11-21-2003, 07:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	Its all or nothing. Either anyone should be able to display whatever they declare is a symbol of their religion or philosophy, or no one should at all. The line has to be drawn. I lean more towards letting people display something, in an organized manner. Religion is a part of people's culture and a part of their identity. There should be some outlet for that in schools so that they can share with on another what their lives are about. If we take out religion, soon we'll take out culture, music, different interests, individualism, and education altogether. Let people display something, but have an organized method of getting each one an equal amount of display space. Maybe have a room or a display case, that each holiday can fill. Equal space. Equal time. That's how I would deal with it. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

11-20-2003, 06:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	January 1, 2004 - New Year's Day January 19, 2004 - Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday (observed) February 16, 2004 - President's Day May 31, 2004 - Memorial Day (observed) June 14, 2004 - Flag Day July 4, 2004 - Independence Day September 1, 2004 - Labor Day November 11, 2003 - Veteran's Day November 27, 2003 - Thanksgiving December 25, 2003 - Christmas One of these is not like the others. Can you pick the U.S national holiday that has nothing to do with honoring the country and predates the invasion of North America by Europeans. Egregious? All depends on your perspective. 2Wolves

11-20-2003, 07:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	There's no info in the O' Reilly thing about size and I think size could be an issue here, though nobody talks about it in tilted sexuality. Are we talking a nativity scene postcard versus a big iron star and crescent? Or are we (perhpas more likely) talking about an expensive outdoors nativity scene with a lifesize fibreglass baby jesus and flashing lights versus a cardbard cutout menorah posted on a noticeboard. Just keep it modest, make everything the same approximate scale and monetary value, leave room for all the other religions and stop moaning about it. If you REALLY need a truck and five workers to put up the Christmas display, you better be ready to dedicate those exact same resources when Chinese New Year rolls round or someone wants a big flashy interactive 'life of Muhammad' display because I think everyone's got that right to equal representation. Either that or don't bother with any of it.

11-21-2003, 08:08 AM	#11 (permalink)
Peetster Right Now Location: Home	"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". I'm not sure how we got from there to the current popular interpretation of "seperation of church and state". The goal was to avoid a state sponsored religion: an Official United States Recognized Religion. So no mention of Christianity. Instead, kids today get to hear about the traditions and rich 37 year old heritage surrounding Kwanza.

11-21-2003, 08:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	See what happens when the unfounded repeated shouts of discrimination and racism by minorities go unchecked because of political correctness. Next fucking thing will be the intolerant message Easter sends to those of other religions. Better stop selling chocolate bunnies for fear of offending. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

11-21-2003, 01:36 PM	#16 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	That was clever Conclamo Ludis. I will have to remember that for future discussions. I like how it's described as "an assualt on Christmas" like there is some great secular army devoted to destroying the trappings of Christianity nationwide and they will stop at nothing. give me a break.... I think it has more to do with the extremes of political correctness than with systematically destroying Christian philosophy. Anyway, Either you have it all or you have none. There is no in between, there is no context, and there are no "special circumstances" If you're going to allow Islam, Judaism, Neo-Paganism, and so forth to have their foot in the door then you have to allow Christianity. It would be better to do away with all of this and avoid this nonsense altogether. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

11-23-2003, 09:56 PM	#17 (permalink)
bonbonbox Banned	When the government stops getting to decide what is and isn't a religion I will become interested in such matters like nativity scenes and the cop that wore a cross. Till then there are more important matters at hand like reclaiming simple freedoms.

11-23-2003, 10:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	I agree, its alright to teach about religion in schools but it isn't right to decorate for and celebrate any exclusively religious holiday. However, I am slightly confused as to why the first article is here. I understand that we all agree that there should be no menorahs or stars and crescents or nativity scenes. So are we not for a PC Christmas? At least in our schools? __________________ "The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

11-23-2003, 10:21 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	What the hell is Kwanza?! Mr Mephisto

11-23-2003, 10:28 PM	#20 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	Kwanza is not a religious holiday. It was established in America back in 1966 and is a day for African Americans to celebrate their heritage. I think its fine to celebrate in schools because it is about heritage, much like Columbus Day (also, technically, a made up holiday). __________________ "The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

11-23-2003, 11:02 PM	#21 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I came across it while looking up some of the actions the ACLU has taken about Christmas festivities. I found it to be quite humourous. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

11-24-2003, 06:46 AM	#23 (permalink)
123dsa Crazy Location: KY	Just another blatant case of minority rule in the US. The vast majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, but we can't do it publically in fear of offending a boisterous minority. lsd

11-25-2003, 06:13 AM	#25 (permalink)
captain Crazy	Purely anti-Christian. __________________ captain