A Frenchwoman, a Libertarian, and Joan of Arc walk into a bar.. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 11-16-2003, 06:02 PM

It's not a joke!

LINKY LINKY

Quote:

The Washington Times

Youth leads French libertarians
By Delphine Soulas
Published November 16, 2003

Some conservatives liken Sabine Herold, a 22-year-old student, to Joan of Arc, and others nickname her "Mademoiselle Thatcher" after she took on France's left-wing labor unions this summer.

Many in France see her as a symbol of a growing revulsion among young French libertarians against a ruling class that punishes excellence and rewards mediocrity.

"A generation of reformers, who can't bear the blocking of the [French] society anymore, is emerging. There will be soon an electoral power of people who really want to change the status quo," said Miss Herold.

In March 2001, she co-founded the group Liberté, J'Ecris Ton Nom, or "Liberty, I Write Your Name," which now has about 2,000 adherents.

"We are in favor of the freedom of business, but we consider that the market is not an end in itself," Miss Herold told The Washington Times. "It is a means in the duty of individual liberty."

She first came to public attention in May during a nationwide strike that had paralyzed her hometown in France's Champagne region, Reims.

In the shadow of the Notre Dame Cathedral — where Joan of Arc once crowned a king — Miss Herold began denouncing the bus drivers, schoolteachers and other union members who were striking for pension reform.

The French newspapers reported that about 2,000 people cheered and applauded as she spoke. Within a month, she stood before an estimated 80,000 cheering Frenchmen in Paris with the same message.

She castigated the trade unions as "terrorists of the social action" and "strongholds of egoist conservatism."

"In France, we are unable to have negotiations before strikes," she said. "The principle of preventive strikes prevails. The contract proposal is still not written, and there are already union members in the streets."

When the British news media found out, they crowned Miss Herold the new symbol of the free-market conservatives in Europe. The London Daily Telegraph called her "the new Joan of Arc on a crusade to stop French unions' causing misery to millions." The Sunday Times hailed her as "Mademoiselle Thatcher."

Asked in a telephone interview about the latter comparison, she praised former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher for taking on militant trade unions, which Miss Herold called "the real mafias."

"The aim is not to break trade unionism in general but the excesses," she said, defending reformist trade unions, "who are conscious of realities."

Last June, the London Telegraph invited her to the other side of the Channel, where she met politicians, including the now retired Mrs. Thatcher.

"I love Britain. I love Margaret Thatcher. I love the way you have overcome the unions and are not afraid to privatize. I love the way you work so hard. In France, we have become lazy and staid. ... We need a dose of Thatcherism," she said then.

"I don't think it would be impossible to establish [this] in France. It's sure that it would require a lot of education, but it would mainly require political courage of a government who would decide not to give up in front of trade unions," she said.

A few months earlier, during numerous demonstrations in France against the coming war on Iraq, she led pro-war demonstrations in front of the American Embassy in Paris.

By opposing the war, she said "France denied its values and supported a tyrant."

It was a very contemptuous attitude towards Iraqis, whom we then considered as settled for servitude, Miss Herold said.

She earned her bachelor's degree in public administration last July at the prestigious Institut d'Etudes Politiques in Paris and is a student at HCE France, an internationally renowned school of business finance and management.

Born into a family of teachers in a small village near the northern Champagne-producing city of Reims, she said she was not interested in politics until only two years ago. Lots of reading, including works of Alexis de Tocqueville and her favorite, the Nobel economics prize-winner Friedrich Hayek, inspired her political ideas.

"Libertarianism is not anarchy. It implies liberty and responsibility" she said.

Earlier this month, she took up a new and again not-so-popular cause, supporting research on genetically modified foods.

"Behind the fight against [genetically modified] food are concealed the reactionary ideas of a French far left that have nothing in its list of honors except the defense of all the bad causes of the 20th century, from Pol Pot to [Fidel] Castro and Mao [Tse-tung]," she said.

She does not hesitate to describe communists as "disgusting" or to call the French far-right leader, Jean-Marie Le Pen, the best speaker, even if what he says "is so dreadful."

She said she has no intention of ever leaving France to live in a foreign country, but that she looks at British and American societies with admiration. In Great Britain, and even more in the United States, there is a culture of success, she said.

"If somebody succeeds by working, he will be admired. ... In France, it's as if we need to excuse for earning money," she said.

She also denounced the French educational system.

"We try to tell ourselves that we have the best educational system because it's free. Whatever it is, there is more social mobility in the United States than in France," she said.

As for the attitude of many French people toward the United States, she said that anti-Americanism has become a kind of reflex in French society. Because of schools and the news media, people are immersed in this climate, she said. "We don't understand very well this unconditional rejection of a country so close to our society."

As a libertarian, Miss Herold is distant from many views held by conservatives in the United States. She supports the legalization of marijuana and homosexual "marriages."

"Actually, we neither belong to the left-wing nor to the right-wing," she said.

Her notoriety has increased in Britain and the United States, perhaps more so than in France, thanks to publicity generated by numerous libertarian Web sites.

"If libertarians need a icon, it doesn't disturb me," she said.

In France, left-wing newspapers note the element of provocation in the name of her organization, Liberté, J'Ecris Ton Nom. It is the name of a poem by Paul Eluard, a World War II-era communist and resistance leader.

The left-wing French newspaper Liberation has called her "the new hero of the private sector."

Alain Ruscio, historian and essayist, writing in the communist daily L'Humanite, dismissed Miss Sabine's organization as a "gathering of young upper-class people."

"I love my country and I am confident about my ideas," she said.

This was an interesting read, to me. I never really gave much thought to Libertarian-like movements in Europe before, assuming that they simply did not exist. Viva Le Revolucion!

edit: for clarity and easier reading

rogue49 · 11-16-2003, 08:01 PM

Hmm...I wonder if she'll actually make a mark
or will she be "burnt" like Joan of Arc?

I hope she can add some balance to their philosophies over there.

Personally, we need some of our own Libertarianism on this side,
the whole system now caters excessively to business & pork.
There needs to be some clean up.
A balanced action.

Sparhawk · 11-17-2003, 05:48 AM

...and then they fall over, rubbing their heads!

God I crack myself up. Seriously though, it's good to hear some French having a new perspective of personal responsibility.

apechild · 11-17-2003, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue49
Personally, we need some of our own Libertarianism on this side,
the whole system now caters excessively to business & pork.
There needs to be some clean up.

Libertarian politicians have had some notable successes in certain localities. In many local races, after all, votes tend to be issue-driven more than anything else. Libertarians have had a lot of success in espousing ideas and policies that resonate with a disillusioned electorate who want to change the status quo.

Ultimately, this is the key to success of any "third party" in this political system. Those libertarians who are elected gain recognition for their policies and their ideas. Momentum could carry their cause to much larger political offices, such as congressmen, senators, and governors.

(LP website)

Quote:

The Libertarian Party ran more than 1430 candidates in the 2000 elections, more than twice as many as all other third parties combined. We fielded candidates for 255 of the 435 seats in the U.S House as well as 25 of the 33 Senate seats up for election -- the first time in eighty years that any third party has contested a majority of the seats in Congress. Our slate of U.S. House candidates received 1.7 million votes, the first time any third party has received over a million votes for U.S. House.

We are building a new political party from the grassroots up, and the vast majority of our candidates are running for local office. Currently, over 300 Libertarians hold elective office, more than twice as many as all other third parties combined.

auswegian · 11-17-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Alain Ruscio, historian and essayist, writing in the communist daily L'Humanite, dismissed Miss Sabine's organization as a "gathering of young upper-class people."

I agree with this dude. I agree with a lot of what she says, particularly some social issues, but her economic and political views I find somewhat odious. She has some very good points, and I hope she gets the message out that their needs to be change. I just wouldn't vote for her, if I was French.

nirol · 11-17-2003, 08:48 PM

I doubt she has much of a chance of changing the entrenched attitudes of the French. I think they have more distance to decline, and then I doubt her proscriptions for improvement will be heeded. I believe they will go off the deep end, regretfully.

irateplatypus · 11-17-2003, 10:03 PM

libertarians on the other side of the pond? no freakin way...

seriously, i wish this girl success. i'm concerned about the level of socialism among democracies in the world, including my own (US).

kandayin · 11-18-2003, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
"If libertarians need a icon, it doesn't disturb me," she said.

I fail to see how a libertarian would want an Icon, I thought that what motivates a libertarian philosophy was the responsbility of oneself, therefore everyone is his own icon.
Choosing a leader for his ideas would be fine as long as this leader has no power whatsoever on other individuals but those who chose him.
In fact I consider myself a Libertarian (and I'm french) and I do not consider this Sabine Herold representative of what I think, simply because the root of the libertarian philosphy simply doesn't allow any room for consensus in my eyes, If i agree to 99% of what she says and disagree on 1%, I can't say she's representative of my thoughts.
And this simple fact disqualifies completely the whole "Libertarian Party" idea,a libertarian society cannot be democratic, cannot hold parties that fight eachother to get elected, in fact, noone gets elected to rule over a geographic part of the world in a Libertarian society, which brings us to the notion of "countries" that doesn't hold a penny in a libertarian society.
All in all I think her whole thinking process is flawed, how can one be a libertarian and at the same time, want people to do something specific. How is it possible to create a libertarian party even more...

Which makes me believe she's just another tool used by the extreme right nationalist party to grab the voices of the libertarian people (which are I think a vast majority in France as in any other country in the world).Next elections will tell anyway.

apechild · 11-18-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

a libertarian society cannot be democratic, cannot hold parties that fight eachother to get elected, in fact, noone gets elected to rule over a geographic part of the world in a Libertarian society, which brings us to the notion of "countries" that doesn't hold a penny in a libertarian society

Kandayin,
I think you might be confusing Libertarianism with anarchism

kandayin · 11-18-2003, 09:58 AM

No I think that Libertarianism is based on the fact that everyone is responsible for their acts and choices, that's the philosophy of liberty, therefore, other people's choices shouldn't affect my choices, the choices of the majority should not infrige on the choices of the minority.
And being born in a country is already a choice defining my background that I did not choose.Look at terminator, being born in Austria is not a choice for him, and that prevents him from being elected president. In a free choice society, you cannot be defined by the place you were born,you only are defined by the choices you take.
The whole concept of country is flawed in a society of liberty because it creates a non choice situation.

j8ear · 11-18-2003, 10:20 AM

I found it to be an interesting read too. I lived in the UK during Thatcher and I remember the time she had with Scargill and the coal minors union. It was out of control. Still is in a lot of ways, public sector employees and public sector unions are a disaster happening, everywhere, but especially in France these days. The unemployed go on strike in France. Every year. "Old Europe" indeed.

It's good to see that some are starting to realize and teaching others that change is needed.

I got a real good chuckle out of this snipet from the article. Especially after reading an Editorial from Zuckerman in this weeks US News on education. Link, too long and not mundane enough to post entire thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis, and presented in his quote:
She said she has no intention of ever leaving France to live in a foreign country, but that she looks at British and American societies with admiration. In Great Britain, and even more in the United States, there is a culture of success, she said.

I guess it's very true. Something happens to the American that makes them no where near the top of educational achievement and success yet without equal at the top of the wealth, standard of living, and productivity values. Not neccesarily all good things, but things (i.e. they can be measured) none the less.

over,

bear

11-17-2003, 05:48 AM	#3 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	...and then they fall over, rubbing their heads! God I crack myself up. Seriously though, it's good to hear some French having a new perspective of personal responsibility. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

11-17-2003, 08:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
nirol Crazy Location: South East US	I doubt she has much of a chance of changing the entrenched attitudes of the French. I think they have more distance to decline, and then I doubt her proscriptions for improvement will be heeded. I believe they will go off the deep end, regretfully. __________________ 'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)

11-17-2003, 10:03 PM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	libertarians on the other side of the pond? no freakin way... seriously, i wish this girl success. i'm concerned about the level of socialism among democracies in the world, including my own (US). __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-16-2003, 08:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	Hmm...I wonder if she'll actually make a mark or will she be "burnt" like Joan of Arc? I hope she can add some balance to their philosophies over there. Personally, we need some of our own Libertarianism on this side, the whole system now caters excessively to business & pork. There needs to be some clean up. A balanced action.

11-18-2003, 09:58 AM	#10 (permalink)
kandayin Upright	No I think that Libertarianism is based on the fact that everyone is responsible for their acts and choices, that's the philosophy of liberty, therefore, other people's choices shouldn't affect my choices, the choices of the majority should not infrige on the choices of the minority. And being born in a country is already a choice defining my background that I did not choose.Look at terminator, being born in Austria is not a choice for him, and that prevents him from being elected president. In a free choice society, you cannot be defined by the place you were born,you only are defined by the choices you take. The whole concept of country is flawed in a society of liberty because it creates a non choice situation.