Presidential Policy and China - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Astrocloud · 11-04-2003, 11:13 PM

This is truly a nonpartisan post. Every single president since Bush Sr. has been amazingly soft on China.

Some may say that we've come along way since the cold war. But lets face it. China gets a supurb deal from the US; ever since Bush Sr. gave China "Most Favored Status" and kept it even after Tiananmen. Clinton kept dating the Chinese even though he criticized Bush Sr. for it. Now the same policy has moved to Bush Jr...

What is it about China that has our Presidents kowtowing to them? Why do we as a nation consistently deal with one of the last vestiges of old school Communism? (As pathetically "old school" as this sounds: Traditional Communist regimes have the absolute worst record on human rights. -And so consistently does China. Furthermore, we absolutely slapped Tawain in the face with our Chinese relations).

What does the president know that we don't? Is this just another approach to a cold war scenario? What does the fate of the world hold for both the US and China?

Discuss.

eple · 11-05-2003, 12:22 AM

Maybe the presidents wants to take it easy with 1/5 of the worlds population and their supposed future growth into the world's most powerful nation?

You know what they say: keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

onetime2 · 11-05-2003, 05:32 AM

China's ability to produce goods at ridiculously low prices makes it a difficult country to avoid dealing with. Even if we could develop relationships/facilities with other countries to supply cheap labor, China will be able to undercut them. Their population can absorb a lot of manufacturing while requiring very little pay.

Technological advances going on in China are skyrocketing (pun intended) and that can only serve to increase their economic and political power. They are trying to change their image from one of a low tech/low cost manufacturer to one of both low and high tech manufacturing.

I have little doubt that the preferences we show to them now will not be taken into consideration when they have the power (whether it be business dealings, international affairs, or whatever) so I doubt we are building much if any good will. Perhaps it's just a strategy to decrease bad will by not pissing them off now. I could certainly see our shunning of them being held against us in the future.

XenuHubbard · 11-05-2003, 06:53 AM

Business is business.

Besides, China is very far from being a communist country. I would say it's getting closer to being the most capitalist country in the world.

Taiwan became a democracy because the US cut the Taiwanese government some slack, and helped the country improve its economy. China isn't very far away from where Taiwan was 30 years ago.

The US has been quite careful in its dealings with China since the 60's, when the CIA got busted peddling guns to Tibetans.

I would say that the current position is a good one for the US.

1. China is moving forward.
2. China cares a great deal about the stability in the region.
3. That market is growing yummier by the minute.
4. Taiwan is not a country. By keeping Taiwan as R.O.C., the US can get juicy deals from both the Taiwanese and the Chinese. Right now North Korea is a more urgent issue, but usually Taiwan is very high up on the topic list during meetings between the two countries. It gives the US a great leverage when dealing with either China or Taiwan.

j8ear · 11-05-2003, 07:21 AM

I think this political cartoon sums it up best....

Not sure why the image doesn't work so here is the link:
http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/...ziger1813.html

When big business is up against human rights...human rights looses. The 'human rights' lobby is a mere fly to be shooed aside by the various industry lobbies.

-bear

*edit*~fixed why image didn't work~

Ustwo · 11-05-2003, 07:50 AM

One of the more amusing shopping moments I had was on the 4th of July 2002. There was of course a lot of patriotic merchandise for obvious reasons, far more then last years 4th. All of it was made in China, well almost all. One tag did read 'hecho en Mexico'.

Astrocloud · 11-05-2003, 10:00 AM

Sure, labor in China is cheap. Indiana Republican Dan Burton told a House of Representatives panel that there are "10 million people in slave labor camps" in China. I guess I take issue with that. Imagine my American flag (which was the only weatherproof one I could find) made in China by slave labor... it's sickening.

Here is a relevant article which should interest some

Quote:

US lawmakers press for tougher action on China trade

Posted: 22 October 2003

WASHINGTON, : US lawmakers pressed President George W. Bush's administration Tuesday to use stiffer measures, including possible import tariffs, to close a widening trade gap with China.

The trade deficit with China expanded to a monthly of record 11.7 billion dollars in August. Last year, the shortfall with China grew to a staggering 103 billion dollars, nearly a quarter of the total US deficit.
"It is intolerable that we would have a trade deficit of the magnitude that we have with China," Indiana Republican Dan Burton told a House of Representatives panel.

"I realize that there are risks in putting the hammer to the Chinese but something has to be done," Burton told the House of Representatives commitee on international relations.

"It has to be done and has to be done relatively quickly otherwise we are going to suffer the consequences," he warned.

"One of the emerging huge powers in this world is China and if we are not careful we are going to be ending up subservient to them in 20 or 25 years because we are not dealing with these problems as we should right now."

It was "extremely important" for Washington to start using a sterner hand in dealing with Beijing, he said.

"If it involves import tariffs on some of their products to send a message then, by golly, we ought to consider that."

China's unfair labor practices also should be addressed, he said.

"When we talk about fair trade we are talking about making sure that the labor (cost) in places like China is not artificially held to such a level that we cannot compete," Burton said.

"In addition to that, they still have 10 million people in slave labor camps that are getting virtually nothing and are making products that we are buying here in America."

Tom Lantos, a California Democrat, said the administration's efforts so far were "dramatically insufficient."

"Given the devastating impact of the yawning Chinese trade deficit on our work force, the administration must develop a much more effective and forceful trade strategy vis a vis China," he said.

Grant Aldonas, Under Secretary of Commerce for the International Trade Administration, said the agreement bringing China into the World Trade Organization (WTO) had been a success "at least on paper" by knocking down barriers to entering the Chinese market.

But "we now need to actual enforcement of the laws and enforcement of the rules in other areas," he said.

China was cushioning its industry from market pressures, creating friction with its trading partners, Aldonas said.

He called for an office to be set up within the US Commerce Department to search for practices that provide such unfair support instead of waiting for US industry to complain.

"We in the Commerce Department should be acting on a proactive basis, identifying the problems and sorting these things out with our trading partners, and only if we fail at that should we have to resort to something like imposing prohibitive tariffs on commodities coming into the United States," Aldonas said.

Committee chairman Henry Hyde, an Illinois Republican, said China's currency, the yuan, was believed to be undervalued by between 15 and 40 percent, unfairly tipping trade in its favor and contributing to the US deficit.

Washington and Beijing "must develop a plan to ensure that market forces more fully dictate the relative value of our currencies," he said.

China should take immediate steps to meet its WTO commitments, Hyde told the panel.

"Failure to implement its commitments could not only jeapordize our bilateral relationship but could also affect our future support for the global trading body as a whole," he warned.

- AFP

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../53500/1/.html

Sorry if this quote is so long... with all the talk about context being important -I thought the whole article would better than just a little snipet

11-04-2003, 11:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	Presidential Policy and China This is truly a nonpartisan post. Every single president since Bush Sr. has been amazingly soft on China. Some may say that we've come along way since the cold war. But lets face it. China gets a supurb deal from the US; ever since Bush Sr. gave China "Most Favored Status" and kept it even after Tiananmen. Clinton kept dating the Chinese even though he criticized Bush Sr. for it. Now the same policy has moved to Bush Jr... What is it about China that has our Presidents kowtowing to them? Why do we as a nation consistently deal with one of the last vestiges of old school Communism? (As pathetically "old school" as this sounds: Traditional Communist regimes have the absolute worst record on human rights. -And so consistently does China. Furthermore, we absolutely slapped Tawain in the face with our Chinese relations). What does the president know that we don't? Is this just another approach to a cold war scenario? What does the fate of the world hold for both the US and China? Discuss.

11-05-2003, 05:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	China's ability to produce goods at ridiculously low prices makes it a difficult country to avoid dealing with. Even if we could develop relationships/facilities with other countries to supply cheap labor, China will be able to undercut them. Their population can absorb a lot of manufacturing while requiring very little pay. Technological advances going on in China are skyrocketing (pun intended) and that can only serve to increase their economic and political power. They are trying to change their image from one of a low tech/low cost manufacturer to one of both low and high tech manufacturing. I have little doubt that the preferences we show to them now will not be taken into consideration when they have the power (whether it be business dealings, international affairs, or whatever) so I doubt we are building much if any good will. Perhaps it's just a strategy to decrease bad will by not pissing them off now. I could certainly see our shunning of them being held against us in the future. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

11-05-2003, 06:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	Business is business. Besides, China is very far from being a communist country. I would say it's getting closer to being the most capitalist country in the world. Taiwan became a democracy because the US cut the Taiwanese government some slack, and helped the country improve its economy. China isn't very far away from where Taiwan was 30 years ago. The US has been quite careful in its dealings with China since the 60's, when the CIA got busted peddling guns to Tibetans. I would say that the current position is a good one for the US. 1. China is moving forward. 2. China cares a great deal about the stability in the region. 3. That market is growing yummier by the minute. 4. Taiwan is not a country. By keeping Taiwan as R.O.C., the US can get juicy deals from both the Taiwanese and the Chinese. Right now North Korea is a more urgent issue, but usually Taiwan is very high up on the topic list during meetings between the two countries. It gives the US a great leverage when dealing with either China or Taiwan. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

11-05-2003, 07:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	I think this political cartoon sums it up best.... Not sure why the image doesn't work so here is the link: http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/...ziger1813.html When big business is up against human rights...human rights looses. The 'human rights' lobby is a mere fly to be shooed aside by the various industry lobbies. -bear edit~fixed why image didn't work~ __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission. Last edited by j8ear; 11-05-2003 at 06:51 PM..

11-05-2003, 07:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	One of the more amusing shopping moments I had was on the 4th of July 2002. There was of course a lot of patriotic merchandise for obvious reasons, far more then last years 4th. All of it was made in China, well almost all. One tag did read 'hecho en Mexico'. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-05-2003, 12:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	Maybe the presidents wants to take it easy with 1/5 of the worlds population and their supposed future growth into the world's most powerful nation? You know what they say: keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.