Now *this* is rehab. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 11-04-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Californians Owe Homes, Lives to Inmates
Mon Nov 3, 4:26 AM ET

By DON THOMPSON and ALEXANDRIA SAGE, Associated Press Writers

LAKE ARROWHEAD, Calif. - They've dug fire lines and cut trees. They've hustled families to safety and wielded garden hoses in hopes of saving homes.

They're the unsung heroes in fighting Southern California's wildfires — and they're convicted felons.

"We save million-dollar homes for a dollar an hour," said Ricky Frank, 33, doing a 10-year stretch for theft. "You get to help people. It's better doing this than being locked up."

More than half of the state's 3,800 full-time wildland firefighters are prison inmates earning $1 an hour as they work off sentences for nonviolent crimes such as theft and drug possession. About 2,150 offenders — either minimum security wards of the California Youth Authority or adults sentenced to the California Department of Corrections — have been out battling the flames.

"We wouldn't be half the fire department we are now without them," said Karen Terrill, forestry department spokeswoman. "I could tell you stories that would bring tears to your eyes."

The convicts usually are out of sight — as they were Sunday, laying more than a mile of hose, cutting fire lines and grubbing stubborn pockets of flame with shovels, rakes, pickaxes and hoes.

On the day the fire in San Bernadino County flared into a wind-whipped monster, however, residents there caught a rare glimpse of the prisoners in the unusual role of trying to protect houses.

The inmate crews are neither trained nor equipped for fighting house fires. But a 28-inmate strike team happened to be one of the first to arrive. They grabbed garden hoses and borrowed chain saws from homeowners. Burglars and thieves risked their lives to rescue prized possessions from doomed homes.

"The ceilings and light fixtures were coming down around us. You're wondering if you'll have to go out a window" to escape, said Greg Welch, 34, serving seven years for selling drugs. "It was chaos."

The homeowners didn't know that the firefighters dressed in bright orange were inmates.

One family asked crew members back for dinner — an invitation they had to decline. Another family spotted them leaving a restaurant days later and rushed to thank them.

Another night, "a guy and his wife just drove up and handed us about a hundred hamburgers. That was pretty cool," recalled convicted burglar David Townsend, 34. "They treated us just like another human, which is nice."

The state began using inmates to do roadwork in 1915, and opened its first temporary inmate fire camps during World War II. The program now has 4,100 inmates in 38 conservation camps: 33 operated by the forestry department, five by Los Angeles County. Three of the camps — two state and one county — are for women.

"There's nothing charitable going on here," Terrill said. "These guys get the same training, equipment and do the same work as a regular crew."

When they're not fighting fires for $1 an hour, they're earning as little as $1.40 a day cleaning up parks, rebuilding trails, or making or renovating children's toys. But every day they work, they get two days off their sentence.

"It knocks a year off my time. You can't beat it. It's better than sitting around prison," said Allen Preslar, 53, serving a seven-year drug sentence.

The inmates perform "lousy, backbreaking, very hard work," said John Peck, who manages the Corrections Department's conservation camp program.

Yet, often for the first time in their lives, they're forced to work together as a team, to respect and obey authority, and are rewarded with real, measurable accomplishment.

"We're trying to do something to save taxpayer money, we're trying to do good quality work, we're trying to get these guys to see how good it feels when you're not on the street corner selling drugs," Peck said.

Violent criminals, sex offenders and escape risks aren't eligible. Those selected for the program generally have short sentences remaining, so there's an incentive not to flee or cause trouble, which could earn a longer term or a transfer back behind bars.

Peck and Terrill tell the story of a convict crew that was ready to pull back from a dangerously explosive 1993 fire in Malibu when they spotted a family trapped atop a steep ridge.

"These inmates, making a buck-an-hour, formed a human chain to get these people down the hill," recounts Terrill. Seconds after all were safe, the hillside erupted in flame.

____

Associated Press Writer Bernie Wilson contributed to this story from San Diego.

I think this is a great story, and hope that similar programs exist elsewhere. Having prisoners sit in their cells watching cable TV or lifting weights is not productive and teaches them nothing. Giving them (non-violent inmates, of course) the opportunity to help others and see what happens when they make a positive impact on someone's life, is well worth $1/hr.

maximusveritas · 11-04-2003, 12:43 PM

I agree. These programs are good as long as they are completely voluntary.

gabshu · 11-04-2003, 03:07 PM

I don't know 1$ an hour, sounds rather symbolic. I guess its good that they get 2 days off their sentence, but it kinda sounds like slave labor to me.

Then again the one guy was saying about how great it was to be outside and to be treated like a human being...

Food Eater Lad · 11-04-2003, 03:10 PM

I dont mean to be a sourpuss here, but people are working for slave laboir rates. I am glad they are doing good, but for the government to hire people for such a pittance, how ever good the reason, is a bad precedence.
I am sure there are non incarcerated people that would love to work, for a decent salary, and decent benifits. This too me is scab labor, even though the result was benificial.
Lets face it, there are plenty of people that i could get to work for a dollar a day if I looked hard enough, would you say I was using them or helping them?

phredgreen · 11-04-2003, 03:17 PM

a few things to consider.

a convicted criminal loses alot of his rights. think of him as an adopted child. he becomes a ward of the state, and must do the bidding of his state. if the state says he needs to fight a fire because it dosen't have the budget resources to pay professional teams to do so, the prisoner fights fires. if the state says he goes and cleans up the highway, the prisoner goes to clean up highways. they can't say no, they don't have the right. they lost that right when they comitted a crime against the state, and this is their pennance.

that said, it's remarkable that these guys worked like they did, i think it really does serve as a great program to allow them to do beneficial things, it might give them a glimpse of how useful a human being can be, when what they've previously known is pretty shallow.

Nad Adam · 11-04-2003, 03:48 PM

You can get 10years for theft or drug possession, damn that's hard.

Sparhawk · 11-04-2003, 05:06 PM

Great story, seretogis.

To expand this thread a little further: A lot of good judges hand down community service as part of the punishment for non-violent offenders, which I'm very much in favor of.

The problem is mandatory minimums for drug possession, which tie judges hands during sentencing. I think it would be pretty awesome if you had former crack users cleaning streets/parks/etc than sitting in jail.

Liquor Dealer · 11-04-2003, 05:43 PM

These public service arrangements are not mandatory - no one told them they had to go fight fires for $1 a day - they chose that in lieu of incarceration - the same goes for the offender doing public service - he has the choice of that or a cell - the choice is his and it is nothing akin to slave labor.

Food Eater Lad · 11-04-2003, 06:52 PM

Technically it is not slave labor, but then neither are sweat shops then, as the people CHOOSE to work there. The US government is setting a bad precedent by hiring 1 dollar a day workers.

And, no, prisoners are not stripped of their rights in such a way as Phred suggests. And further more, I say that no prisoner should be forced to do a job that any non prisoner could do for pay. Why take a job away from a person that did not commit a crime and have the government profit on incarcerated labor. Whats next, prisoners selling shoes? Paving the streets? How about $1 a day Postal Workers? I mean it is cheep, it will set a postive example for prisoners, but at the end of the day, it lowers salaries, and takes away work from people that are not arrested.
If prisoners want to feel positive and work for early release, they can dig holes half the day, and fill them the other half. This is something that takes away work from no one.

skier · 11-04-2003, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nad Adam
You can get 10years for theft or drug possession, damn that's hard.

you'll get the same or worse for vandalism. I've had more than a few good friends go to jail for 5-10 for graffitti. The sick thing is, about a year ago, a drunk driver ran over and killed NACE, and seriously injured KERN and NESM. He was released just last week.

Zeld2.0 · 11-04-2003, 08:39 PM

Yeah the entire driving stuff kinda gets to ya. Kid gets run over and the guy gets a slap on the wrist basically compared to a guy with spray cans and vandalism.

And yeah, I'm glad that some part of the CA penal system is actually doing something good for once lol

Mephisto2 · 11-04-2003, 08:53 PM

5 to 10 years for vandalism?!!

You've got to be kidding me?

Sometimes the US sounds like a Police State to me. Scary...

Mr Mephisto

dy156 · 11-05-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

And further more, I say that no prisoner should be forced to do a job that any non prisoner could do for pay. Why take a job away from a person that did not commit a crime and have the government profit on incarcerated labor. Whats next, prisoners selling shoes? Paving the streets? How about $1 a day Postal Workers? I mean it is cheep, it will set a postive example for prisoners, but at the end of the day, it lowers salaries, and takes away work from people that are not arrested.

I was all for it, but I hadn't thought of this argument.

I'm all for the market place determining things, but I doubt that the market place could/did/would respond fast enough to natural disasters, and that could be the difference between what these people did and a situation where they work for nothing and someone else loses a job. Also, it seems like alot of the tasks they have performed in the past, such as clearing park trails, are tasks that the government might decide were not worth the cost of hiring somebody to do them, anyway. America needs to do something about it's penal system, and I'm glad to hear that something like this is being done.

11-04-2003, 03:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
gabshu Psycho Location: The capital of the free world??	I don't know 1$ an hour, sounds rather symbolic. I guess its good that they get 2 days off their sentence, but it kinda sounds like slave labor to me. Then again the one guy was saying about how great it was to be outside and to be treated like a human being... __________________ Go Kool Aid. OH YEAAHH http://www.retrocrush.com/archive2003/koolaid/

11-04-2003, 03:17 PM	#5 (permalink)
phredgreen who? Location: the phoenix metro	a few things to consider. a convicted criminal loses alot of his rights. think of him as an adopted child. he becomes a ward of the state, and must do the bidding of his state. if the state says he needs to fight a fire because it dosen't have the budget resources to pay professional teams to do so, the prisoner fights fires. if the state says he goes and cleans up the highway, the prisoner goes to clean up highways. they can't say no, they don't have the right. they lost that right when they comitted a crime against the state, and this is their pennance. that said, it's remarkable that these guys worked like they did, i think it really does serve as a great program to allow them to do beneficial things, it might give them a glimpse of how useful a human being can be, when what they've previously known is pretty shallow. __________________ My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. - Thomas Paine

11-04-2003, 03:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	You can get 10years for theft or drug possession, damn that's hard. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

11-04-2003, 05:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	Great story, seretogis. To expand this thread a little further: A lot of good judges hand down community service as part of the punishment for non-violent offenders, which I'm very much in favor of. The problem is mandatory minimums for drug possession, which tie judges hands during sentencing. I think it would be pretty awesome if you had former crack users cleaning streets/parks/etc than sitting in jail. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

11-04-2003, 05:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	These public service arrangements are not mandatory - no one told them they had to go fight fires for $1 a day - they chose that in lieu of incarceration - the same goes for the offender doing public service - he has the choice of that or a cell - the choice is his and it is nothing akin to slave labor. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

11-04-2003, 12:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I agree. These programs are good as long as they are completely voluntary.

11-04-2003, 03:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	I dont mean to be a sourpuss here, but people are working for slave laboir rates. I am glad they are doing good, but for the government to hire people for such a pittance, how ever good the reason, is a bad precedence. I am sure there are non incarcerated people that would love to work, for a decent salary, and decent benifits. This too me is scab labor, even though the result was benificial. Lets face it, there are plenty of people that i could get to work for a dollar a day if I looked hard enough, would you say I was using them or helping them?

11-04-2003, 06:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Technically it is not slave labor, but then neither are sweat shops then, as the people CHOOSE to work there. The US government is setting a bad precedent by hiring 1 dollar a day workers. And, no, prisoners are not stripped of their rights in such a way as Phred suggests. And further more, I say that no prisoner should be forced to do a job that any non prisoner could do for pay. Why take a job away from a person that did not commit a crime and have the government profit on incarcerated labor. Whats next, prisoners selling shoes? Paving the streets? How about $1 a day Postal Workers? I mean it is cheep, it will set a postive example for prisoners, but at the end of the day, it lowers salaries, and takes away work from people that are not arrested. If prisoners want to feel positive and work for early release, they can dig holes half the day, and fill them the other half. This is something that takes away work from no one.

11-04-2003, 08:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Yeah the entire driving stuff kinda gets to ya. Kid gets run over and the guy gets a slap on the wrist basically compared to a guy with spray cans and vandalism. And yeah, I'm glad that some part of the CA penal system is actually doing something good for once lol

11-04-2003, 08:53 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	5 to 10 years for vandalism?!! You've got to be kidding me? Sometimes the US sounds like a Police State to me. Scary... Mr Mephisto