Official War Stance

[KillerYoda]

I looked, but couldn't find one, so I was curious as to what everyone's official stance is. Kind of a way to know how people will react to certain comments ahead of time so you can have a conversation and not a flamewar.

Here's mine:
I'm against the war, but support the troops. None of the bullshit "they're babykillers" that you'd here in the 60's. The Saddam problem should have been dealt 12 years ago when he was actually a threat. Now we just look like a bunch of assholes in the world view for jumping the gun on the situation. It just seems like a waste of American lives to rush into war with a country that's sat on their ass for a decade.

What's your official stance?

[boatin]

The war is over, and I hope that we do a good job cleaning up and getting the hell out.

I thought we jumped the gun on the war, didn't believe the so-called evidence that there were WMD, don't believe the war makes us "safer" from terrorists.

Do believe the the people of Iraq are glad Saddam is gone, and would be happy if the US removed more dictators around the world. Not just the ones where we have ulterior motives for removing.

Unhappy that America is perceived world wide as imperialist dickheads, know that foreign policy matters, and that the president can affect that perception.

Frustrated that our President throws us into a war that we can't afford, while proposing tax cuts for the rich. Pissed off that a good patriotic, feel good war does such a great job of distracting the American public from domestic morass.

Unhappy that dissent = unpatriotic.

Frustrated that we didn't realize that once we removed Saddam people would think (justifably so) that we would need to run Iraq immediately. Public order, fixing sewage/power/water plants, setting up a police/fire authority, etc. are all things that could have happen more quickly than they have. Where was the planning? Oh yeah, planning is hard to do when we are rushing to war...

Whew. Is that what you mean?

[smooth]

Almost a moot point but I'll bite anyway :

I think the shifting motives from our administration caused world opinion to question our ulterior motives and undermined our legitimacy. Our relegation of civilian casualties to "collateral damage" has taught soon-to-be terrorists that civilian casualties in the U.S. is an unfortunate but necessary side effect to military action--whether the fighting force is seen as legitimate by others or not. Our actions transgressed our historical standpoint of being ruled by laws and not men and calls into question whether a government can truly be administered detached from idealogies.

In short, our current actions will cause blowback. We unfortunately aren't likely to recognize the historical context once that blowback occurs and will lash out once again in the distant future instead of reexamining how we implement foreign policies.

btw, I am currently hoping the Iraqi people will elect officials before the U.S. administration gets its puppet government set up since that would both provide a self-directed government (one of the stated reasons for our actions) and expose our administration's ulterior motives if they keep undermining such attempts. Right now it appears that upstarts are occurring but there hasn't been public criticism towards our government for arresting those people. It's a hard call for me personally as to whether the upstarts are actually popular uprisings so I'm keeping those arguments to myself.

[KillerYoda]

Originally posted by boatin
Whew. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, pretty much. And I do admit the war in Iraq is over, but I'm sure the mideast conflict altogether isn't. I probably should have made it more clear that I meant "how do you feel about the situation?"

[Phaenx]

I don't like the phrase pro-war. I don't think anyone here wants to go to war, given the choice between war and peace I'd take peace, unfortunately sometimes you have to secure peace with war. You can't be afraid to fight, or think that fighting is wrong, because not everyone agrees with you and they'll come fight you whether you want to or not.

[Daval]

I'm for the 'liberation' of Iraq.

I think it should have been done 12 years ago and the US did the people of Iraq a great disservice by not following through back then.

I support the US and Canadian and British troops and hope they all make it home safely.

I support the UN and wish a UN solution could have been found.

I also wish the Mr. Bush would have slowed down the rush to war by about 2 or 3 weeks and tried one last ditch UN approach. I believe if he had done that he would have had quite a few other countries on his side.

[Memalvada]

Im against all wars, specially one fought over oil. Open you eyes. Just look at how the military was eager to secure oil fields, but did nothing to try and stop looting until a few while back.

Free the Iraqui people? Yeah right...

[Liquor Dealer]

Originally posted by Memalvada
Im against all wars, specially one fought over oil. Open you eyes. Just look at how the military was eager to secure oil fields, but did nothing to try and stop looting until a few while back.

Free the Iraqui people? Yeah right...

"It's the oil stoopid?" This a moot point - this has been beaten to death on the old board and even those most against the war fianlly, at least to a point, agreed that this is not about oil. There was tons of material to substantiate this. There are two reasons we tried to protect their oil fields:

1. To try and prevent an ecological disaster

2. It is their oil, their countries wealth - wealth that has been enoyed by a priviledged few while the majority lived in poverty or worse.

Looting, while distasteful always occurs after a dictator of oppressed people is overthrown - It was expected and would have been impossible to stop. Granted, it is a shame that sites such as the museum were looted but it now appears this was an inside job and much of it took place earlier than when the mass looting by the populace took place. Law and order will be restored. The Iraqi people are intelligent enough to take care of their own problems as soon as influence from the past disappears.

[BoCo]

I'm for the War on Iraq because of the freedom it's bringing to an oppressed people. Also, we're finding more and more proof of Saddam's sponsoring of terrorist groups, which is really what the war was all about in the first place. It's not even close to being all about oil.

[KillerYoda]

Originally posted by Daval
I think it should have been done 12 years ago and the US did the people of Iraq a great disservice by not following through back then.

Exactly.

[smooth]

Originally posted by BastardStepChild
"It's the oil stoopid?" This a moot point - this has been beaten to death on the old board and even those most against the war fianlly, at least to a point, agreed that this is not about oil.

Engaging in a little revisionism there. Those of us most opposed to the war did *not* concede the war was not motivated by concerns regarding oil. The closest to what you claim was when a *war supporter* finally conceded that the *flow* of oil was of concern to U.S. interest rather than simple greed--and we left it at that.

[reconmike]

A Daval quote
I think it should have been done 12 years ago and the US did the people of Iraq a great disservice by not following through back then.

If history is correct the great UN TOLD the US to stop where we did because the resoultion was to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait,
not remove Hussien from power.


Memalvada, Have you ever heard of the FLMN, because of who is your country the way it is today, is it because of those wonderful sandinistas? Are you still against all wars? I was in your country in 1985 helping the government of the time, you are right the US is a Bad, Bad country.

Listen up people freedom does not happen with talking, never has never will, you must fight to remain free.

[magic_hat]

Originally posted by Phaenx
I don't like the phrase pro-war. I don't think anyone here wants to go to war, given the choice between war and peace I'd take peace, unfortunately sometimes you have to secure peace with war. You can't be afraid to fight, or think that fighting is wrong, because not everyone agrees with you and they'll come fight you whether you want to or not.

i feel that this is the root of the problem. The fact that millions of people seem to think that there is nothing wrong with fighting a war.

when you look back in history you can see that war has plagued the human race almost constantly. Remind yourself of all the gigantic empires that have been in power, ruled for hundreds of years...then have been defeated. I see a pattern. I refuse to become a part of that trend. I am disgusted by war and all the baggage that comes with it. As people we see and hear so many amazing things, peaceful things..... i cannot enjoy such things while in the background and off in a distant land there are people being killed, for what? go ahead and describe all the excuses and matters which justify the killing of others....its been done for thousands and thousands of years....we are deff. getting good at it.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by magic_hat
i feel that this is the root of the problem. The fact that millions of people seem to think that there is nothing wrong with fighting a war.

when you look back in history you can see that war has plagued the human race almost constantly. Remind yourself of all the gigantic empires that have been in power, ruled for hundreds of years...then have been defeated. I see a pattern. I refuse to become a part of that trend. I am disgusted by war and all the baggage that comes with it. As people we see and hear so many amazing things, peaceful things..... i cannot enjoy such things while in the background and off in a distant land there are people being killed, for what? go ahead and describe all the excuses and matters which justify the killing of others....its been done for thousands and thousands of years....we are deff. getting good at it.

Uh-huh, well lets just take your approach next time a Hitler comes around and fall over on our backs and put our legs up towards them in some sort of makeshift defense. They should have a good laugh before they shoot us.

Wouldn't it be great if you were right and everyone had an epiphony and stopped fighting with each other? There's no doubt that everyone would enjoy that long lasting peace. Unfortunately, back in reality, that's not going to happen. Remember how TV used to tell you everyone is different, and it's a beautiful thing? Well, some people want you dead, you're going to have to do something about it other then talk.

Don't fight, try it. Someone is going to come along and pop you in the face sooner or later, history has already proven that correct.

[crewsor]

War is hell. I hate it. But if it comes down to them or us, freedom or tyranny, I say, lets kick some ass. You cannot allow the fear of war to give your enemys the idea that you don't have the heart to fight for your way of life, your countrys security, and your freedom. To show weakness in this world of hate and aggression is a big mistake.

[magic_hat]

Originally posted by Phaenx
Uh-huh, well lets just take your approach next time a Hitler comes around and fall over on our backs and put our legs up towards them in some sort of makeshift defense. They should have a good laugh before they shoot us.

Wouldn't it be great if you were right and everyone had an epiphony and stopped fighting with each other? There's no doubt that everyone would enjoy that long lasting peace. Unfortunately, back in reality, that's not going to happen. Remember how TV used to tell you everyone is different, and it's a beautiful thing? Well, some people want you dead, you're going to have to do something about it other then talk.

Don't fight, try it. Someone is going to come along and pop you in the face sooner or later, history has already proven that correct.

right there. that is my point excactly, more than enough people have this mentality. More than enough people have had that mentality in the past, which is why war has not ceased to exist.

i think we can learn much from the past, but lets not buy into such ideals as the ones you think cannot be altered. I mentioned a pattern in my last post, and with that being said i ask a question....what is the fate of the U.S.A, how long does do you think it will last?

[The_Dude]

against the war, but support the troops.

but it's over now

[drewg]

Before the war started, I was against it, because I don't like the way the US feel it's up to them who should rule a country or not. I don't like the way they wanted to rush to war with very much a "Our way, or the highway" attitude, that caused many rifts to open between countries in the EU. When my country (Norway) wanted to stay neutral in the conflict (or rather, with whatever the UN decided), the US ambasador in Oslo said that relationships between US and Norway could be damaged if Norway did not support the US. And the attempt to bribe (or pay for lost income, whatever) the Turkey government to go against their own people (over 90% of the Turkish population where against the war as far as I can remember) was just sickening. Think about what you would feel if your own goverment went against it's own people like that, just because another country was willing to pay them for it. I was really supprised when Turkey said no, but I'm glad that some countries have the guts to have their own oppinion about things.

I don't buy the idea that they would go to war for oil. And I don't buy the argument that they are there on some sort of humanitarian mission to free the Iraqis. There are loads other reasons why the US would want to go to war with Iraq, but I really don't believe in any of them alone. Anyway, I can only speculate what the reasons behind are. My guess is that there is probably a mix of many reasons, honorable and and not so honorable, both for the countries who are for and for those who oppose the war.

But now, when the fighting is over (atleast for some time). I hope that the US will be able to rebuild Iraq and that the can have their own government, elected by their own people, because they have suffered enough. Unfortunately, I'm not to optimistic about all after seeing what happened (is happening) in Afghanistan. But I think a rebuilt Iraq could be a benefit for the US (as opposed to Afghanistan) as long as the new Iraqi government stays somewhat pro-US, and that might inspire the US government to make a real effort to back the country back on it's feet. I also hope the US will not try to punish other countries for disagreeing with their policy, but it seems as if they are going to. This will increase the tension within Europe and will be a setback for the EU. I can't really put all the blame in the US for this, a good portion of it also goes to France who felt like bullying the soon to be EU countries when they did not share the French and German point of view. But I think the US are not to sorry to see that the European Union is not functioning all that well, and that they would not be too sorry if it continued to stay this way.