Interesting piece concerning Atheists in America - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

floonine · 10-30-2003, 07:04 AM

The following link is SFW, but I won't lie, I haven't had the time to figure out if it is true or not. It discusses President Bush's opinion on Atheists for starters...

http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/ha...er/page50.html

Again, please understand that I did not have the time to cross reference this information, but I though it was interesting enough to post.

Ustwo · 10-30-2003, 07:10 AM

Gotta love a site that tries to put Gator on your system.

eple · 10-30-2003, 07:19 AM

Wow, if that information is correct (I don't feel too sure about the source), it sounds pretty scary. I mean, there are many groups to discredit out there, but atheists? It's not like there are too many fanatic atheists out there....

Reminds me of that Futurama episode, the final showdown between good and neutrals.

Ustwo · 10-30-2003, 07:44 AM

This sounds like total Barbra Streisand.

But then again, even if its true, its from 1987 and involves Bushes father. I think this is a bit late

P.S. I could find no back up of this quote outside of the original report. No major news agencies seem to have this quote, but a lot of blogs and AOL chat groups do.

P.P.S. Also a lot of idiots are saying GWB said this, not getting the 1987 part.

Bill O'Rights · 10-30-2003, 07:45 AM

Quote:

ISSUE
"Can George Bush, with impunity, state that Atheists
should not be considered either citizens or patriots?"

The History of the Issue

Madalyn O'Hair

When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush.

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are Atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the Atheist community. Faith in god is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are Atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on Atheists.

On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane, cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a law-suit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade Atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States "one nation under God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place.

Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?

Murnane: It's bullshit.

Sherman: What is bullshit?

Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit.

Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue.

Murnane: You're welcome

This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not considered to be bullshit by the federal judge before whom it is pending. During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman's son, now age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school for refusing to pledge to a "nation under God."

After Bush's election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987 statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating that substantively Bush stood by his original statement.

"As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government."

American Atheists had not asked Bush to either "unnecessarily" or even "necessarily" encourage or support them. All they wanted was an apology for the insult. Many Atheists wrote to Bush over the issue and Nelson Lund, the associate counsel to the president, found it necessary to reply on April 7, 1989, directly to the American Atheist General Headquarters, Inc. This letter from the White House said that Mr. Gray was adhering to his statements in the February 21, 1989, letter. On May 4, 1989, Jon Murray, the president of

American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification of and an apology for his statement that Atheists "should not be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Bush ignored the letter, as did Gray and Lund. Mr. Murray also asked for an appointment so that a group of representatives of American Atheists could meet with Bush.

Mr. Joseph W. Hagin 11 responded on May 25, 1989, again on White House stationery. He stated that the president "appreciated your taking the time to write and your willingness to share your thoughts" but that "due to heavy commitments on his official calendar" the president could not meet with representatives of American Atheists. On January 9, 1990, George Bush, in signing a proclamation for the Martin Luther King holiday, had the gall to remark that "bigots" must be brought to justice. Again, American Atheists threw his words back in his face, asking what his designation of Atheists as being unworthy of citizenship was. On February 5, 1990, Mr. Nelson Lund replied again on White House stationery--stating

"We believe that our position has been adequately explained in previous correspondence."

floonine · 10-30-2003, 08:28 AM

Thank you Bill

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 10:12 AM

A president doenst have to abandon his personal views when taking office. He has to do his job. Mabye I am unaware, but I didnt see a purge of athiests during Bush 1's tenure as president.
Just like I dont expect the next Christian president to drop his religion, or that matter the first Jewish president.

I am an atheist, and I never felt threatened by Bush 1. Abraham Lincoln had some clearly racist views on blacks, but it didnt stop him from doing his job. Judges, Policemen, teachers, etc all have personal opinons that may come in conflict with the people they serve. Does this make them unfit for their job? Only if their ACTIONS are counterproductive to their performance.

Or is the poster here advocating a person loose his job based on how they think?

Astrocloud · 10-30-2003, 01:44 PM

Strange that I agree with Ustwo. This is about Bush senior as Madelyn Murray O'Hair was murdered circa 1995

Quote:

O'Hair founded the group American Atheists in 1963 and remained its leading spokesperson until 1995, when she and two of her adult children vanished after leaving a note saying they would be away temporarily. The trio appeared to have taken with them at least $500,000 in American Atheist funds; one private investigator concluded that they had fled to New Zealand. Eventually suspicion turned to David Roland Waters, an ex-convict who had worked at the American Atheist offices. Police concluded that he and accomplices had kidnapped the O'Hairs, forced them to withdraw the missing funds, and then murdered them. Waters eventually pled guilty to reduced charges and in January 2001 he led police to three bodies buried on a remote Texas ranch, which proved to be O'Hair and her children.

http://www.who2.com/madalynmurrayohair.html

10-30-2003, 07:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
floonine Insane Location: Silicon Valley, Utah	Interesting piece concerning Atheists in America The following link is SFW, but I won't lie, I haven't had the time to figure out if it is true or not. It discusses President Bush's opinion on Atheists for starters... http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/ha...er/page50.html Again, please understand that I did not have the time to cross reference this information, but I though it was interesting enough to post. __________________ Political arguments do not exist, after all, for people to believe in them, rather they serve as a common, agreed-upon excuse. Foolish people who take them in earnest sooner or later discover inconsistencies in them, begin to protest and finish finally and infamously as heretics.

10-30-2003, 07:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Gotta love a site that tries to put Gator on your system. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-30-2003, 07:44 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	This sounds like total Barbra Streisand. But then again, even if its true, its from 1987 and involves Bushes father. I think this is a bit late P.S. I could find no back up of this quote outside of the original report. No major news agencies seem to have this quote, but a lot of blogs and AOL chat groups do. P.P.S. Also a lot of idiots are saying GWB said this, not getting the 1987 part. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-30-2003, 08:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
floonine Insane Location: Silicon Valley, Utah	Thank you Bill __________________ Political arguments do not exist, after all, for people to believe in them, rather they serve as a common, agreed-upon excuse. Foolish people who take them in earnest sooner or later discover inconsistencies in them, begin to protest and finish finally and infamously as heretics.

10-30-2003, 07:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	Wow, if that information is correct (I don't feel too sure about the source), it sounds pretty scary. I mean, there are many groups to discredit out there, but atheists? It's not like there are too many fanatic atheists out there.... Reminds me of that Futurama episode, the final showdown between good and neutrals.

10-30-2003, 10:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	A president doenst have to abandon his personal views when taking office. He has to do his job. Mabye I am unaware, but I didnt see a purge of athiests during Bush 1's tenure as president. Just like I dont expect the next Christian president to drop his religion, or that matter the first Jewish president. I am an atheist, and I never felt threatened by Bush 1. Abraham Lincoln had some clearly racist views on blacks, but it didnt stop him from doing his job. Judges, Policemen, teachers, etc all have personal opinons that may come in conflict with the people they serve. Does this make them unfit for their job? Only if their ACTIONS are counterproductive to their performance. Or is the poster here advocating a person loose his job based on how they think?