Food Eater Lad

Thats fair, and you are welcome to your opinion. Just realise that when immigration is concerend, by far, outsiders choose the nation with the big fish, the USA over Norway by a VAST majority. I wonder why if your nation is so much better?

eple

double post

smooth

Ah yes, you are right that Japanese women are hot.

Given your disdain for collectivist societies and the fact that Japan is the only fully industrialized society that has developed without Western cultural traditions, however, I find it odd that you would hold them up as a paragon of the antithesis of what I was joking about.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

eple

...well...I guess that might have something to do with the US relying itself on immigration to fill up the low-paid jobs on the bottom of the food chain, and the fact that Norway have bigger regulations on our immigration. We deal with our own poverty before we import massive amounts. Might be egoistic, but our unemployment rate has risen in the last 10 years of breaking down our welfare society, and it's not the best time to get a massive increase in immigration.

Food Eater Lad

Those wimmen is still hot no matter what their traditions.

Food Eater Lad

So the fact that you wont let people into your nation to better themselves is your proof? "Let poor third worlders starve, we are too busy feeding ourselves" Lets hear it for Norway! the voice of compassion.

Ps, the world need ditch diggers too, and the US is more than happy to let anyone from any nation come and make a better life while improving the quality of life for their children. But you are right, no one can come to Norway unless everyone is fat and pampered first.

eple

All I see is a society importing people to be a lower class. They are imported to do the dirty work. It's not glorious in any way. It is a good thing to share the wealth, but importing people to wash your tilets while bombing other countries and destroying global enviromental treaties (kyoto) isn't helping people. It's basing wealth on other's poverty. Just because people are let within the borders, doesen't seem to mean that they get any benefits.

I am in favour of less restrictions on immigration myself, the restraints have mainly been on the right-wingers account. I do believe we need to let people in, but not just to serve as the one getting all the shit jobs. If we are to let more people in, we need ot be able to include them in our welfare.

Besides, Norway got lucky, found oil and got ritch. That is nice, but it doesen't mean that we share a responsibility for every poor peron on the globe. The fact that we have achieved a high standard of living for a majority of our citizens, doesen't mean we need to import poverty here. There are only so many jobs to maintain in a frozen country mostly consisting of mountains.

Food Eater Lad

So again, nice rice Norway doesnt need dirty third worlders fleeing some dictator or natural disaster coming in to their nation to make their lives better. And what jobs should uneducated people get? Lets let uneducated third worlders in to America and make them pilots, doctors and lawyers?
The fact is, they come here to make a better life for themselves, something America clearly offers. We could be isolationist like Norway and let the undesirables to their own misfortune, as you say Norway does.
What is better, scrubbing toilets in America, living a longer healthier life while your children get educated and rise on the social ladder, or living in poverty with a shorter life span while your children have no hope of a better existance than your own?


How can you even claim to hold the moral high ground on this? Your anti Americanism is showing.

My grandparents came to America from Italy and Romania, one fleeing the facists, the others fleeing the nazis. I guess if they chose Norway I would be a lampshade now.
Both sets worked in a factory and lived in a cold water flat. Their sons all got educated and became craftsmen, and their children became proffesionals. Not bad for poor, uneducated toilet scrubbers.

eple

Hmm...calling me anti-american is kind of weak, try to debate without labeling people. I am not anti-American, but I do have opinions on American policy, it affects me too, see.

I don't expect you to know much about Norway (I don't think that is required, we're pretty insignificant), but I could mention that Norway was a poor fishing nation until the late 70's, and that your grandparents wouldn't have moved here anyway, as we sucked.

I do see the appeal in a society where anyone can work their way up, but I don't think that is the reality in the US today. There is a significant border between the classes of American society. To get power and money,you need high education, and to get that, you need money and power. The immigration fills up the slots in the lowest classes, maintaining a steady supply of cheap employment.

As I said, I belive that welfare for a majority is better than full "freedom" to the vast minority. Freedom is more than the freedom to pursue money and power on everyone elses expense, in fact, I don't think of that as freedom at all. A famous Norwegian politician (Einar Gerdhardsen, leader of the Norwegian Labour, prime minister for a long period after WWII) once gave a word of advice: Do your duty, demand your right. First, you do what is required of you as citizen, then you demand your rights (as I write it down, I recognize how it matches Kennedy's "ask not what your country should do for you..."-quote a few years later). Anyways, it's pointless to compare Norway to the US, USA have always been a naiton of immigrants, and have based it's growth on it. Norway is just a former poor country, recently gaining independence and with a generally poor amount of resources and industry (we have 3% fertile landscape usable for farming, and most of our landmass are too rough, cold or high to support any industry). There are only so many oil rig workers needed, and the rest of us can't all work as artists and salesmen.

Hmm...here I go rambling on...I did at some point forget what we were debating, so....well hooray for a working social democracy anyway. Hope we can get one in Norway again some day.

Food Eater Lad

So if social bettering doesnt work, how did I get educated? I mean I am only third generation from uneducated toilet scrubbers? Of four Grandparents, not one was born in America. All fled horrors of Europe, and not one could read. I guess you are right, people can not make it in America unless socialists tuck them in at night.

eple

I didn't say social bettering never worked, it worked all right, but it has been weakened, to the point where I belive immigrants are being imported simply as cheap labour. Anyways, I don't care wether or not people are able to fight their way to the top, I support a society where everybody gets some basic needs filled. Education, healthcare, safety is not something you should fight for, it should be a basic benefit from your country.

I am sorry, English is my second language (as you might have percieved :P), and I didn't understand what you meant in that last centence :


Could you explain for teh english impaired?

Food Eater Lad

Your english is excellent. I never would have guessed it is a second language.

Immigrants are working cheap. That is a fact. Is there anything wrong with that? Nope. They are getting benifits like living in a well protected nation. They are getting free education for their children. They can better themselves, and their children. That is what America is about, it is not, and should not be, a place where people come to get a handout. Why do you think otherwise, you never explained it. You are aguing without any evidence.

My last sentence was sarcastic. If I have to explain it, then it lost its meaning.

eple

Heh, point taken, I guess I will have to miss out on that one...

You might be right, the differences between a huge federal republic like the US of A and a small (former) social democracy like Norway are beyond compare. This is also why I support smaller units of government, and why I oppose the megalomaniac idea of a united Europe (yes I am aware that I am responsible for a massive derail here).

To get back to somewhere within the original debate, I am opposed to the extreme marked-liberalism shown here, not from a moral view, but because I don't like theories with a minimal chanse of survival:
The whole model is basing itself on several factors which aren't reality. I don't believe consumers wants to play an active role in every bargain and service they aquire. Just take a look at the average Joe's involvement in their country's political scene. If they can't summon the initiative to vote, how could they ever summon the initiative to make all these decitions regarding their consumptions. Not only comparing prices, but also take enviromental and social issues into account. It won't happen!

In the new society, we are no longer citizens, but consumers, and as consumers, we all know what we want: easy products in the easiest way. To let people change their society through their wallets seems like a very bad approatch.

Food Eater Lad

So you propose to let politicians make decisions for people to apathetic to do a modicum of research? The same politicians ELECTED by those apathetic persons? Sounds like compounding the error.
I however, think that people will rise to the occasion. In current American soceity, people are too quick to say "thats the governments job to fix that, or let the politicians sort it out." This attitude breeds laziness and apathy. And the only people that benifit are the politicians.

eple

True enough, but I guess that is the curse of the representative democracy. We elect people to do all the decition not neccecarily because they are über-mench with superior judgement, but because the decitions are too many and too versatile for any citizen to care about. The society we have created are simply too complex for any citizen keep track of every detail, so we appoint people to work as professional decition-takers. It's not a very good system but it shure as hell beats living in caves.

If we really are to achieve this liberitarian model or any other "perfect" the perfect system, we would probably have to decentrealizethe power to such a degree that the current system of nations would be useless.

My belief is that big and powerful nations or federations will never be able to adopt systems which preserves democracy and freedom for all. If the goal really is democracy, then you would have to aim for smaller, more easily-manageable societies. If the goal, however, is purely progress without a cause (as I believe FEL endorsed when he claimed that the US is superior on basis of their scientific achievements), then larger, less democratic nations are useful. As far as democracy is conserned, I read somethign a while ago about humans and happiness. Some scientists had stated that humans were at their peak in the bronze-age, when it came to happiness. There were enough rescources, few wars (they had the rescourses, why fight?), and people lived in peaceful communities. Now I am not saying we should try to go back there, but It's not granted that progress will always be the soloution. So far it mostly gives us chanse to breed more humans, until new problems arise because of the growht.

Jesus, that was long. Hope anybody cares to read.
Tl;dr: that's what you get when you drink too much coffee, son.

Food Eater Lad

I read a lot about The Trojan War, The Assyrian Atrocities, The Babylonian Wars, which all happened in the Bronze Age, so I very much doubt your theory.

Second, I believe in democracy for a large nation like the USA. I believe that people can make the right choices when they have to. Just they dont have to cause liberals dont think that the masses are capable of doing anything with out them to show them the correct way.

And the US has more than just science over Norway, MUCH more.

eple

Like what? Remember that we are debating within a social/democratic perspective

Food Eater Lad

You telling me that American movies arent popular all over the world? Are Norweigan? What about American music? American clothes? The American Dollar? American food? American buisness...etc

eple

*sigh*

As i said, in a social/democratical perspective. American culture is of course bigger, as well as American business. I am talking about living standards and freedom. Norway is of course not a great contributor to global culture, nor a big factor in the global economy (exept for the rucus we make together with OPEC now and then). What we were discussing (before the derail I probably created), was personal freedom etc with regards to govermental system. I don't expect you to have great knowledge of Norwegian standards (not many non-Norwegians have), but I will be surprised if you can find any rights or benefits given to Americans which Norwegians lack.

Food Eater Lad

And I am sure that what ever rights and freedoms you have, We as Americans also enjoy, plus all the 0ther stuff on top.

HarmlessRabbit

I have been to Norway, and I think the culture there is great. The only right that I think Norway lacks is the right to relatively free immigration into Norway. Norway seems a bit Xenophobic to me, with the reluctance to join the EU and the very generous incentive to women to have children in order to keep Norway from having the immigrant problems that Germany and France have.

Not that Norway's policy is better or worse than the USA, but it is an area in which the USA and Norway differ. In almost every other way (other than perhaps weather) I found Norway to be much better run than the USA.

Also, Oslo is absolutely beautiful.

eple

The reason why Norway have restrictions on immigration are mainly because of strong unions and xenophobic right-wingers. The fact is that Norway isn't able to support that many jobs (our unemployment rates are increasing heavily nowadays), and the last thing the powerful unions want, is a massive import on foreign workers who can live on lower wages and remove jobs from Norwegians. It's not too nice, but it's not easy to say what is worst.

We can import a lot of poverty and unemployment to burden our welfare system, thus reducing our common welfare, or we can stick to admitting political refugees and other forms of "charity-immigration". Unions are massive in Norway, and they have a great impact on the governent, so it's not an issue easily resolved.

I am not sure what to think...there are only so many jobs to create in this little mountain-country. Anyways, I am in favour of more immigraition, but not if there aren't any jobs to offer the immigrants. We have been known to accept immigration when we had jobs for them (ecpeccialy the 70's), so it's not really that related to xenophobia.

Food Eater Lad

So again, back to the Idea that Norway is for Norweigans. If Americans say that, they are called racists, but you guys can say it and then slander American for accepting immigrants and letting them better their lives.

eple

Well, in my eyes neither of the systems are very good. It's not good closing your borders and letting the rest of the world suffer, but importing a lower class to do your dirty work sucks as well.

Could we stop arguing wether or not Norway or the US is utopia, and try to focus on the original theme regarding liberalism? I posted some opinions on that, but got no response.

Food Eater Lad

I think accepting people from any country and letting them better themselves by living in a stable nation and getting free education so their children can improve their lot is a lot better than xenophobia and isolationism.
"Norway, the rest of the world can go to hell"

eple

Sure, you may put it that way if you wish, but it's not really too close to reality. The situation of Norway and the US is in almost every aspect different, and to believe that we could at any time swap level of immigration etc isn't too wise. As previously stated, I think it would be great if we could finish this nationalistic pissfight and return to the original subject.