10-18-2003, 11:52 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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Eight marines charged with Iraq murder
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
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One of the accused is a major. I don't know if this is just because he was in charge or because he was directly involved, but it's sad to see such a large group of army personnel being charged with such a nasty crime. |
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10-19-2003, 12:39 AM | #2 (permalink) | ||
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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Re: Eight marines charged with Iraq murder
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__________________
seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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10-19-2003, 01:06 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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10-19-2003, 10:04 AM | #7 (permalink) |
EVIL!
Location: Southwest of nowhere
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Lack of training is no excuse for mistreatment of prisoner's. I'm sure there is probably more to the story that was not reported, but the prisoner's death was unwarrented, Unless the prisoner had gained access to a weapon, which was trying to use. The fact that Marine's were staffing a detention center, has no real bearing on the story. I'm sure the military will make every effort to see that the alleged perpetrator's are dealt with accordingly.
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When all else fails, QUIT. |
10-19-2003, 10:04 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Banned
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Chavos,
certainly more than one. I would like to find out more about the situation before passing judgement on it, and what our people are doing over there (in prison. I mean, not the whole war). This is why we have criminal investigations. We have no idea if the Iraqi brought it upon himself, like by attacking a guard, or if the soldiers actually murdered the prisoner. |
10-19-2003, 10:22 AM | #9 (permalink) | ||||
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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10-19-2003, 10:34 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Its a tribute to the US that we prosecute people who do this sort of thing.
I don't see what issue you are trying to bring up here.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
10-19-2003, 10:41 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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So, if I understand your point, the more crimes that soldiers commit and prosecute, the more tribute the USA deserves? |
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10-19-2003, 11:39 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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When you or Ustwo are ready to discuss political issues rather than troll, I'll respond. From now on though, I have no interest in replying to content-free trolls from either of you. What do you think of the article, Food Eater Lad? It, and the other article I posted about medical conditions for reservists in Georgia, seem to imply that Rumsfeld's attempt to conduct war in a new way isn't working very well. Several non-liberal generals have criticized Rumsfeld, and both of those articles came from Drudge Report. Matt Drudge is hardly a liberal. I'm a liberal, however, and I'm proud of that. I care about the condition of the poor, including our troops and reservists, most of whom live in poverty are impacted quite severely by the Bush Administration's tax cuts for the rich and benefit reduction for the poor. Let me know when you're ready to actually discuss something by bringing up your opinions and thoughts on an issue. |
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10-19-2003, 11:59 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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How well trained does someone have to be to not be violent?
This sort of thing has been going on in war since there has been war. I'm not sure what kind of training you would like to do, maybe sensitivity training? Empathy with the enemy? Quote:
And reguardless, despite all the give aways, do we still have poverty? Do we still have crime? Are the schools better? Liberalism works on feelings, not results. Something a good parent teaches their child early on is the value of hard work, and that you can't just expect things handed to you, yet this lesson is lost on liberals giving away other peoples money. I too care about the poor, but liberal programs don't slove poverty, they enable it.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-19-2003, 12:00 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Apocalypse Nerd
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Alow me to play devil's advocate and voice the simple fact that these guys are only charged with a crime. They are still innocent until proven guilty.
There are a lot of hardcore resistance fighters and Iraqi irregulars still in Iraq. I bet if the guy they killed, managed to kill 2 or 3 marines and escape... This wouldn't have been in the news as anything more than just three more flags sent home. Meanwhile, who would've put the Iraqi on trial? I just guess we won't know; we can't know -until we have more facts to consider. |
10-19-2003, 12:11 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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Your other points are interesting, but off-topic. Feel free to write up your thoughts into a new post. I'm interested in having a rational discussion about your points. |
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10-19-2003, 12:25 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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If you expect some 500,000 men, under harsh conditions, to NEVER do something like this with 'training' you don't understand human nature very well. |
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10-19-2003, 01:09 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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On another note, can we please stay away from moronic generalizations of "all liberals" and "all conservatives?" It's really not helpful, especially since a couple of people who I would consider ultra-liberal have agreed with the "conservatives" on this thread. P.S. My new avatar makes my posts look smart!
__________________
seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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10-19-2003, 01:52 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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10-19-2003, 01:54 PM | #20 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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Facts from the case so far: - These guys were reservists - They didn't receive their supposedly mandatory training in handling prisoners - Reservists aren't supposed to handle prisoners anyway, only full time soldiers should Now, these are statements from the defendant's lawyer, so you can choose to believe or not believe them, but I believe they are valid points. I'm apparently not alone in my beliefs. A quick search: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ed...nG=Search+News Turns up this: http://washingtontimes.com/commentar...5654-4779r.htm Quote:
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10-19-2003, 02:10 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Funny how the "tax cuts" done by the Bush administration are being blamed for everything from underpaid soldiers to social failures in the US. Just how far do you think a $ could possibly stretch? |
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10-19-2003, 03:18 PM | #23 (permalink) |
Banned
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Like make Iraq a decent viable part of the world, why liberals are agaisnt that and at the same time pretend to care about people is absurd. By the way in just this month alone, the US is Up 84 billion more than expected due to the upswing in the economy. So stop complaining about the money going to Iraq, at this point its almost found money.
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10-19-2003, 03:37 PM | #24 (permalink) |
Apocalypse Nerd
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Strange how the thread has been jacked from about some soldiers in Iraq -to a Straw Man argument about "What Liberals think".
I would love to speak up but the quality of conversation just isn't to par with what certain people claim their IQ to be. Example: Q: What do you think about the soldiers in Iraq accused of murding someone. A: Liberals suck. It's a pretty pathetic substitute for intellectual discourse. I mean even if you hate someone else -at least do it in a unique or interesting way. edited by rogue49 for over the top flashing rebuttal Last edited by rogue49; 10-20-2003 at 04:39 AM.. |
10-19-2003, 03:49 PM | #25 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The democrats are desprate for ANYTHING to pin on Bush. This is just a desperate attempt to blame the administration for the actions of a few individual soldiers. Oh and before you blame the Bush crew for this, who do you blame for this one? Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-19-2003, 04:14 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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Throughout this whole thread, you have refused to discuss the issue. The issue is whether Rumsfeld's attempt to conduct cheaper wars is causing problems like this. The fact that Rumsfeld is trying to make US warfare cheaper and use fewer troops is not disputed by anyone. Several high-profile generals have disputed his policies publicly, and rumsfeld has defended himself publicly. These reservists were apparently on an assignment they shouldn't have been assigned, doing something they weren't trained for. Something tragic happened, and I'm interested in discussing the event in the context of Rumsfeld's new way of conducting war. If you don't want to join that conversation, then frankly I have no interest in hearing you spout off "all you liberals" this or that. |
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10-19-2003, 04:32 PM | #28 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
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The Bush Administration has asked more of this military while treating the troops like crap, cutting troop pay, extending their tour of duty, and generally showing a lot of contempt for an all-volunteer, mostly-poor, mostly-minority army. I can care about the troops while thinking the policy of the administration towards the troops and the war is wrong. edited by rogue49 for not knowing how to stop before I take things too personal and flame another member. Last edited by rogue49; 10-20-2003 at 04:47 AM.. |
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10-19-2003, 04:37 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Rumsfelds policy has NOTHING to do with this, any more then Clintons did in my above quote. The only difference is no one tried to blame Clinton for it, like some are trying with Bush. I thought I was clear that I didn't blame Rumsfeld. I've said no indirectly many times before, now I'm saying it directly. I'm not sure what conversation I'm not joining here, but I'm being quite clear that armies do "bad things" at times. I don’t blame Clinton for soldiers actions, and I knew you wouldn't which is why I posted that bit of article. Its the liberals desperate desire to nail Bush for something that always happens in war that is the real meat of this discussion. There is nothing unique about these 8 men that makes them any different then the 9 men in the rape, (and I didn't post the whole article, there were more abuses). I also wonder if these are the same Generals that thought we would need 2 million troops to invade Iraq, or 500k to invade Afghanistan. Generals always want more men, more guns, more supplies, more, more, more, its the nature of the job I think. Generals complain all the time about anyone who might cut their budget or tell them to make due, god knows they complained about Clinton, they complain about Rumsfeld (and Bush), and they will complain about whoever comes next. So in case I'm not clear, no its not Rumsfeld's fault, and I really don't understand why you have to get so hostile. I don’t agree with the idea that somehow this wouldn’t have happened if Rumsfeld had spent a few billion more. You can't look at this only as 'how is this war being run' and draw conclusions on it, without looking at past conflicts and what happened during them. This sort of thing happens in war, the US unlike most other countries does its best to make sure the abuses don’t happen, and punish those who commit them. End of story. |
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10-19-2003, 05:24 PM | #31 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Whether you want to link it to rumsfeld or not, somebody fucked up for making these undertrained reservists do a job that reservists, much less undertrained reservists aren't supposed to do. Whether you can chalk that up to the fact that we seem to be fighting a "war on cheap"(not really that cheap) or not is up to you. I can't imagine what would be said if medics or engineers were asked to interrogate hostile prisoners and some atrocity level shit went down. Under normal circumstances i'm pretty sure that, if given the choice, the army would want people who are qualified to do the things that require qualification.
So i guess my question is, who is holding the army back? Responsibility lies somewhere, right? The statement that atrocities are part of any military conflict, is unfortunately true(i wonder how many of these dandies we haven't heard about), but it seems like under these circumstances we are practically asking for it. If my 10 yr old cousin(or anyone else who doesn't know how to drive) gets behind the wheel of a car and proceeds to crash it i wouldn't just shake my head and say, "Car accidents are inevitable." There's obviously more to it than just the fact that car accidents do happen. I think we could very accurately attribute the accident to the fact that my cousin had no experience or training and really no business being behind the wheel. I've heard the president marvel at the "humaneness" of our current war/occupation. I wonder how much more humane it would be if our soldiers were actually qualified to do the jobs the administration is asking them to do. |
10-19-2003, 05:33 PM | #32 (permalink) | |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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As far as these 8 men go, there are criminals in the army, and if war brings out the best in a man then it can also do the opposite. If convicted, they will spend a very long time making big rocks into small rocks, and rightfully so.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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10-19-2003, 05:38 PM | #33 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Another thing, the training required for this kind of thing is not rocket science. These men were guarding a prison, not interogating prisoners. This is a simple task that can be accomplished without in-depth training. The ecuse that they were improperly trained for the task is just that, an excuse made by a lawyer to defend his client.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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10-19-2003, 06:20 PM | #35 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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The difference is that these people are disciplined soldiers, under the command of trained officers and subject to the UCMJ. All soldiers recieve training on the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of POWs.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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10-19-2003, 06:38 PM | #37 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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A lawyer would never lie to reporters, right?
Nor does it matter for them, military trails don't go up before an LA Jury. Maybe they arn't guilty, and will get off, but they won't get off by blaming someone else for their cruelty.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
10-19-2003, 06:44 PM | #38 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Whether he is lying is unknowable by any of us and is therefore irrelevant. Politicians have been known to lie, yet many people still trust them.
btw, if you're not going to address any substantial points in anything i am saying, please don't be the little fly that buzzes around my posts and whispers sweet, irrelevant techinicalities in my ear, for after this post i will do my best to ignore such mutterings. |
10-19-2003, 06:45 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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The responsibility for this act rests on the individuals and their immediate commanders.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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10-19-2003, 07:00 PM | #40 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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But lets assume they didn't get the training, just for fun. Do you really think they didn't get the training budget because of Rumsfeld, or more likely because someone screwed up and they got out of it?
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 10-19-2003 at 07:02 PM.. |
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charged, iraq, marines, murder |
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