Comatose Woman's Parents Hope for Legal Help - Page 6 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KMA-628 · 03-20-2005, 07:13 PM

Drudge is getting ready (in minutes so he says) to play alleged audio of Terri after having her feeding tube removed.

You can probably find him on the AM dial as he is on in almost all states.

Other than that, I know nothing of this audio.

hannukah harry · 03-20-2005, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

Drudge is getting ready (in minutes so he says) to play alleged audio of Terri after having her feeding tube removed.

You can probably find him on the AM dial as he is on in almost all states.

Other than that, I know nothing of this audio.

that seems really shameless and disgusting. let her have some dignity.

KMA-628 · 03-20-2005, 07:21 PM

I'm interested because it may play to her "cognitive abilities".

My wife saw some of the recent video of Terri today and wondered how "out of it" she is. Prior to seeing the video, she was on the side of having the feeding tube removed, now she isn't sure.

It is hard to watch those videos as it really isn't easy to tell if the women is aware or not--some of it looks a little to much to be considered purely reflexive.

I'm not saying to put her tube back in, but we would be remiss to not look at all info available--even if it contradicts our perceived opinions.

Edit: He hasn't played it yet, supposedly he will soon and post it to his website.

KMA-628 · 03-20-2005, 07:45 PM

For anybody interested, here is a link: AUDIO

Good luck though, the server is getting blasted right now.

I listened to it.

On the outside, it is disturbing.

However, there really isn't anything to back it up or to verify its authenticity.

I am bothered by the father starting it off by giving the day and time. Sounds like a set up, but I am not sure.

NCB · 03-20-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hannukah harry

that seems really shameless and disgusting. let her have some dignity.

What even more shameless and disgusting is the pro-death crowd's refusal to even consider that she's something other than a vegetable.

hannukah harry · 03-20-2005, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

What even more shameless and disgusting is the pro-death crowd's refusal to even consider that she's something other than a vegetable.

if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then she must be in a persistant vegitative state with no hope of recovery.

it's shameful and disgusting that you and the others that support her parents don't want her wishes carried out and will even change the law for this specific situation.

NCB · 03-20-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

For anybody interested, here is a link: AUDIO

Good luck though, the server is getting blasted right now.

I listened to it.

On the outside, it is disturbing.

However, there really isn't anything to back it up or to verify its authenticity.

I am bothered by the father starting it off by giving the day and time. Sounds like a set up, but I am not sure.

Your'e right, it is getting blasted right now. If it is authentic, it's time to send in the federal marshals along with a doctor to get that tube back in.

Hardknock · 03-20-2005, 08:46 PM

Over 200 posts?? I don't believe it. Why does this issue stike a nerve with so many people? Tom Delay and his minions let alone the government have no business whatsoever meddling in the lives of one particular family. Why doesn the government get involved with this one particular case and not the thousands of others going throuh the same shit right now? The value of life? Give me a fucking break. Bush is supposed to be for state's rights but he want's to interviene on this issue?

Please.

I wouldn't want to live like that and pretty much the entire population would say the same (if you don't you're kidding yourself) so all those "protesters" trynig to sneak food into her room can just shut their trap.

jorgelito · 03-20-2005, 09:00 PM

This whole thing is just...sad.

It really feels like so many people are out to push their own agenda. It's disgusting.

Is there really no hope for recovery? Can they turn her brain back into functioning solid matter from the liquid mush it currently is? Can they do a partial brain transplant? What about stem-cell stuff, anything there? Is is possible to "grow" it back?

Wow that is the ultimate political football - "Stem-cell research can save Terry Shialvo, Congress refuses to pass bill authorizing stem-cell research". Could be ironic.

Lebell · 03-20-2005, 09:43 PM

Another take:

It marriage is sacred and there should be less government in our lives, then her husband should have final say.

It bothers me that politicians (on both sides) only stick to their principles when it is convenient.

Zeld2.0 · 03-20-2005, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Another take:

It marriage is sacred and there should be less government in our lives, then her husband should have final say.

It bothers me that politicians (on both sides) only stick to their principles when it is convenient.

Most defenitely agreed

Hardknock · 03-20-2005, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

This whole thing is just...sad.

It really feels like so many people are out to push their own agenda. It's disgusting.

Is there really no hope for recovery? Can they turn her brain back into functioning solid matter from the liquid mush it currently is? Can they do a partial brain transplant? What about stem-cell stuff, anything there? Is is possible to "grow" it back?

Wow that is the ultimate political football - "Stem-cell research can save Terry Shialvo, Congress refuses to pass bill authorizing stem-cell research". Could be ironic.

I will really laugh my ass off if it's found that the only way to save her is through stem cell research. What a dlimema that the right wing congress will face then.

"We want to prolong life but we can't do stem cell research but stem cell research prolongs life."

I can see them now shittin' bricks trying to figure out their "morals."

aKula · 03-21-2005, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmike6100

Everyone *should* have a living will. Her parents seem unreasonable; while I can't imagine what it's like for that to happen to your own child, I think it's torturous to keep her artificially alive -- with no reasonable hope of recovery -- for so long.

Sure, you want to preserve life, but is that what you call life??

I think that this is the crux of the issue. Is what she is experiencing 'life' at all? Is she conscious of anything at all, and more importantly will she ever be conscious at all? From what I've heard there's no chance of a recovery. Would a life in which we were "instantaneously conscious" but there was no link between these instances of consciousness be a proper life? We aren't even sure what she is exactly feeling.

1.People for the removal of the feeding tube see the situation in which there there is no real life as there is no awareness of what is happening or over a time interval. They see that there is no hope of recovery from such a state.

2.People againts the removal of the feeding tube see a woman who is alive and/or a person who could be aware of her soroundings or could recover. I can understand NCB's point that we should proceed caustiously as he doesn't think that we can be sure of point 1, and therefore should keep the feeding tube. (sorry If I have interpreted your arguments incorrectly, feel free to correct me).

I for one think the medical evidence clearly points to 1. and that the wishes of the woman (in this case what her Husband says she would want), should be followed.

Locobot · 03-21-2005, 03:44 AM

Now it seems GWBush has signed "emergency legislation" to reinsert this woman's food and water tubes...so she will go on being a political pawn for the religious right who violate her wishes to not be kept in a permanent vegetative state. It's moves like this which focus my dissatisfaction with Bush as a leader. At this point Bush is "playing god" just as much as anyone.

hannukah harry · 03-21-2005, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locobot

Now it seems GWBush has signed "emergency legislation" to reinsert this woman's food and water tubes...so she will go on being a political pawn for the religious right who violate her wishes to not be kept in a permanent vegetative state. It's moves like this which focus my dissatisfaction with Bush as a leader. At this point Bush is "playing god" just as much as anyone.

from my understanding, what this legislation does is let the case be appealed to the federal courts. i think yahoo's article said that a stay has been submitted, but that they didn't know when the judge would get to it. so she's off the tube for now, and if the stay is not granted, then permanently.

NCB · 03-21-2005, 05:14 AM

Right-to-Starve Added to Feminism's Victories
by Scott Ott

(2005-03-19) -- The National Organization for Women (NOW) today held a jubilant news conference to celebrate the latest advance in women's rights -- the right to have your estranged husband choose to end your life.

"First, it was women's suffrage -- the right to vote -- then abortion, the right to privacy," said an unnamed NOW spokesman. "Finally, a man has led the way in freeing us from the antiquated bigotry that has kept our former husbands from choosing a slow, painful death for us."

The NOW source said the court-ordered removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, based on the testimony of Michael Schiavo alone has "opened a world of opportunities for women to freely die at the hands of the men they love."

"The next time you tell your husband 'I'd rather die than go to that party,' you can rest assured that your words have legal weight and, if the occasion arises, your wishes will be respected," said the NOW source. "What's more, you're free from the worry that your man will be prosecuted for your murder."

Michael Schiavo lives with another woman and their two children. He developed this "backup family" according to his lawyer, "to assuage his eventual grief over the coming loss of Terri -- the woman he loves to death."

Legal experts at the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) also praised the "new progressive precedent in contract law."

"The court has affirmed that a verbal contract where the only witness is one of the contracting parties is legally binding even if that witness has already violated a written contract, in this case a marriage license, verbally affirmed before dozens of witnesses," said the ACLU expert. "The bias against known contract-breakers is gone. This also gives a more influential voice before the courts to our nation's incapacitated, comatose and dead citizens. Their wishes can be determined by the words of their beneficiaries without the hassle of documentation or multiple witnesses."

http://www.scrappleface.com/

maleficent · 03-21-2005, 05:22 AM

NOW was so jubiliant about it, they haven't seen fit to update their own website? Interesting... http://www.now.org/ -- as of right now, there's nothing on the website that backs up this story.

But even if it is true, NOW should be appalled, so now it's up to the daddy to make the d decisions for her life, instead of the woman?

Kadath · 03-21-2005, 06:13 AM

NCB, that's the second time you've posted satire without stating it as such (and from the same website, though at least this time you posted the link). This time you fooled a moderator.

NCB · 03-21-2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

NCB, that's the second time you've posted satire without stating it as such (and from the same website, though at least this time you posted the link). This time you fooled a moderator.

This thread was in dire need of some satire. I posted the link, thus the reader beware. BTW, fooling a mod with a satrical piece ain't a rule violation is it? In fact, shouldn't I recieve some kudos for it?!? j/k

JBX · 03-21-2005, 06:55 AM

What we have witnessed is the abuse of power by the federal government. It is sad that all who swore to uphold the constitution abadoned it so quickly.

dksuddeth · 03-21-2005, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Right-to-Starve Added to Feminism's Victories
by Scott Ott

(2005-03-19) -- The National Organization for Women (NOW) today held a jubilant news conference to celebrate the latest advance in women's rights -- the right to have your estranged husband choose to end your life.

"First, it was women's suffrage -- the right to vote -- then abortion, the right to privacy," said an unnamed NOW spokesman. "Finally, a man has led the way in freeing us from the antiquated bigotry that has kept our former husbands from choosing a slow, painful death for us."

The NOW source said the court-ordered removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, based on the testimony of Michael Schiavo alone has "opened a world of opportunities for women to freely die at the hands of the men they love."

"The next time you tell your husband 'I'd rather die than go to that party,' you can rest assured that your words have legal weight and, if the occasion arises, your wishes will be respected," said the NOW source. "What's more, you're free from the worry that your man will be prosecuted for your murder."

Michael Schiavo lives with another woman and their two children. He developed this "backup family" according to his lawyer, "to assuage his eventual grief over the coming loss of Terri -- the woman he loves to death."

Legal experts at the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) also praised the "new progressive precedent in contract law."

"The court has affirmed that a verbal contract where the only witness is one of the contracting parties is legally binding even if that witness has already violated a written contract, in this case a marriage license, verbally affirmed before dozens of witnesses," said the ACLU expert. "The bias against known contract-breakers is gone. This also gives a more influential voice before the courts to our nation's incapacitated, comatose and dead citizens. Their wishes can be determined by the words of their beneficiaries without the hassle of documentation or multiple witnesses."

http://www.scrappleface.com/

It's my opinion that this piece of flamebait be deleted.

Prince · 03-21-2005, 08:42 AM

Yet another reason for me to get off my arse and prepare my Advance Directive. Just so I don't end up, like this woman, as porn for the morally over-conscious.

tecoyah · 03-21-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

It's my opinion that this piece of flamebait be deleted.

No deletion is required But, I will request that notation be placed as to the Satirical Nature of future posts....just to keep everyone happy.

meembo · 03-21-2005, 11:11 AM

I'm really pleased to see the general opinion here, that the federal government has no place in this. I read in the paper today that the general concensus in the US regarding Congress' intervention is 60% against, 35% pro, 5% undecided. I sat through these family discussions twice, once regarding my father, who survived and recovered, and once with an older brother, who did not survive, and died at home. Both times were intensely private, and I couldn't imagine accepting that a judge somewhere would, even could, make those kinds of decisions for my family.

I didn't get a chance to read every post in this thread yet. Does anyone else think that all this eleventh-hour Congressional action is just to please the religious right in anticipation of next year's Congressional elections? I can see this case being right-wing mud-slinging ammunition already (Democrats killed Terri!). I usually am not personally offended by politics, but I am this time.

flstf · 03-21-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meembo

I didn't get a chance to read every post in this thread yet. Does anyone else think that all this eleventh-hour Congressional action is just to please the religious right in anticipation of next year's Congressional elections? I can see this case being right-wing mud-slinging ammunition already (Democrats killed Terri!). I usually am not personally offended by politics, but I am this time.

Like you my brother and sisters were in the same kind of situation when my father died. The last thing you need at this time is government intervention.

I cannot see any political advantage for congress to get involved this way. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they believe strongly in what they are doing. Of course I think they are absolutely wrong for doing so.

stevo · 03-21-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBX

What we have witnessed is the abuse of power by the federal government. It is sad that all who swore to uphold the constitution abadoned it so quickly.

There was no abuse of power here. What we have witnessed here is the congress exercising power over the federal courts, which is granted in Article 3 of the constitution. All federal courts (with the exception of the supreme court) are creations of congress. Congress can give these courts power and take their power away as it pleases. Like it or not, congress was well within its constitutional rights to act as it has.

Hardknock · 03-21-2005, 11:44 AM

Constitutionaly? Ok. But morally, which the religious rights cliams to hold dear?

She's a pawn. That's too bad.

stevo · 03-21-2005, 11:53 AM

Here's a letter written by the family's attorney last christmas. She wrote another one over the weekend, I'm trying to find it. After reading this how can anyone say her brain is liquid?

Quote:

A Visit With Terri Schiavo

Attorney Barbara Weller

This past Christmas Eve day, 2004, I went to visit Terri Schiavo with her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, her sister, her niece, and Attorney David Gibbs III. The visit took place at the Woodside Hospice for about 45 minutes just before noon.

When I knew I was going to visit Terri with her parents, I had no idea what to expect. I was prepared for the possibility that the Schindlers love their daughter and sister so much that they might imagine behaviors by Terri that aren't actually evident to others. The media and Mr. Schiavo clearly give the impression that Terri is in a coma or comatose state and engages only in non-purposeful and reflexive movements and responses. I am a mother and a grandmother, as well as one of the Schindlers’ attorneys, and I could understand how parents might imagine behavior and purposeful activity that is not really there. I was prepared to be as objective as I could be during this visit and not to be disappointed at anything I saw or experienced.

I was truly surprised at what I saw from the moment we entered the little room where Terri is confined. The room is a little wider than the width of two single beds and about as long as the average bedroom, with plenty of room for us to stand at the foot of her bed. Terri is on the first floor and there is a lovely view to the outside grounds of the facility. The room is entered by a short hallway, however, and there is no way for Terri to see out into the hallway or for anyone in the hallway to observe Terri.

From the moment we entered the room, my impression was that Terri was very purposeful and interactive and she seemed very curious about the presence of obvious strangers in her room. Terri was not in bed, but was in her chair, which has a lounge chair appearance and elevates her head at about a 30-degree angle. She was dressed and washed, her hair combed, and she was covered with a holiday blanket. There were no tubes of any kind attached to her body. She was completely free of any restraints that would have indicated any type of artificial life support. Not even her feeding tube was attached and functioning when we entered, as she is not fed 24 hours a day.

The thing that surprised me the most about Terri as I took my turn to greet her by the side of her chair was how beautiful she is. I would have expected to see someone with a sallow and gray complexion and a sick looking countenance. Instead, I saw a very pretty woman with a peaches and cream complexion and a lovely smile, which she even politely extended to me as I introduced myself to her. I was amazed that someone who had not been outside for so many years and who received such minimal health care could look so beautiful. She appeared to have an inner light radiating from her face. I was truly taken aback by her beauty, particularly under the adverse circumstances in which she has found herself for so many years.

Terri’s parents, sister, and niece went immediately to greet Terri when we entered the room and stood in turn directly beside her head, stroking her face, kissing her and talking quietly with her. When she heard their voices, and particularly her mother's voice, Terri instantly turned her head towards them and smiled. Terri established eye contact with her family, particularly with her mother, who spent the most time with her during our visit. It was obvious that she recognized the voices in the room with the exception of one. Although her mother was talking to her at the time, she obviously had heard a new voice and exhibited a curious demeanor. Attorney Gibbs was having a conversation near the door with Terri’s sister. His voice is very deep and resonant and Terri obviously picked it up. Her eyes widened as if to say, “What’s that new sound I hear?” She scanned the room with her eyes, even turning her head in his direction, until she found Attorney Gibbs and the location of the new voice and her eyes rested momentarily in his direction. She then returned to interacting with her mother.

When her mother was close to her, Terri’s whole face lit up. She smiled. She looked directly at her mother and she made all sorts of happy sounds. When her mother talked to her, Terri was quiet and obviously listening. When she stopped, Terri started vocalizing. The vocalizations seemed to be a pattern, not merely random or reflexive at all. There is definitely a pattern of Terri having a conversation with her mother as best she can manage. Initially, she used the vocalization of “uh’uh” but without seeming to mean it as a way of saying “no”, just as a repeated speech pattern. She then began to make purposeful grunts in response to her mother’s conversation. She made the same sorts of sound with her father and sister, but not to the same extent or as delightedly as with her mother. She made no verbal response to her niece or to Attorney Gibbs and myself, but she did appear to pay attention to our words to her.

The whole experience was rather moving. Terri definitely has a personality. Her whole demeanor definitely changes when her mother speaks with her. She lights up and appears to be delighted at the interaction. She has an entirely different reaction to her father who jokes with her and has several standing jokes that he uses when he enters and exits her presence. She appears to merely “tolerate” her father, as a child does when she says “stop” but really means, “this is fun.” When her father greets her, he always does the same thing. He says, “here comes the hug” and hugs her. He then says, “you know what’s coming next---the kiss.” Her father has a scratchy mustache and both times when he went through this little joke routine with her, she laughed in a way she did not do with anyone else. When her father is ready to plant the kiss on her cheek, she immediately makes a face her family calls the “lemon face.” She puckers her lips, screws up her whole face, and turns away from him, as if making ready for the scratchy assault on her cheek that she knows is coming. She did the exact same thing both times that her father initiated this little routine joke between the two of them.

The interactions with her family and our appearance in her room appeared to require some effort and exertion from Terri. From time to time, she would close her eyes as if to rest. This happened primarily when no one was paying particular attention to her, but we were talking among ourselves. After a few minutes or when one of the visitors approached her and started to talk directly to her again, Terri would open her eyes and begin her grunting sounds again in response to their conversations. Although I approached her, leaned close and stroked her arms and spoke to her, she did not verbally respond to me.

Terri’s hands are curled up around little soft cylinders that help her not to injure herself. I understand that these contractures are likely very painful, although there was a time when Terri was receiving simple motion therapy when her hands and arms relaxed and were no longer as constricted. When the therapy was discontinued by order of her guardian and the court, the contractures returned. These contractures would apparently be avoidable if Terri were given the simple range of motion therapy she previously received. It is very sad to observe firsthand these conditions that make her life more difficult, but that would be correctable with little effort.

When we were preparing to leave, the interactions with Terri changed. First, she went through the joke routine with her father and the “lemon face.” When her niece said goodbye to her, Terri did not react. Nor did she react to me or to Attorney Gibbs when we said our goodbyes to her. When her sister went to her to say goodbye, Terri’s verbalizations changed dramatically. Instead of the happy grunting and “uh uh” sounds she had been making throughout the visit, her verbalizations at these goodbyes changed to a very low and different sound that appeared to come from deep in her throat and was almost like a growl. She first made the sound when her sister said goodbye and then, amazingly to me, she made exactly the same sound when her mother said goodbye to her. It seemed Terri was visibly upset that they were leaving. She almost appeared to be trying to cling to them, although this impression came only from her changed facial expression and sounds, since her hands cannot move. It appeared like she did not want to be alone and knew they were leaving. It was definitely apparent in the short time I was there that her emotions changed—it was apparent when she was happy and enjoying herself, when she was amused, when she was resting from her exertion to communicate, and when she was sad at her guests leaving. It was readily apparent and surprising that her mood changed so often in a short 45-minute visit.

I was pleasantly surprised to observe Terri’s purposeful and varied behaviors with the various members of her family and with Attorney Gibbs and myself. I never imagined Terri would be so active, curious, and purposeful. She watched people intently, obviously was attempting to communicate with each one in various ways and with various facial expressions and sounds. She was definitely not in a coma, not even close. This visit certainly shed more light for me on why the Schindlers are fighting so hard to protect her, to get her medical care and rehabilitative assistance, and to spend all they have to protect her life.

I realize that Terri has good days and bad days. There are obviously days when she does not interact with her family, as they had previously told us. There are also apparently days when Terri is even more interactive and responsive to them than she was on the day I visited. Since this visit I am more convinced than ever that the Schindlers are not just parents who refuse to let go of their daughter. There really is a lot going on with their daughter and potentially, it seemed obvious to me, Terri could improve even more with appropriate care and 24 hour a day love that can only come from a dedicated family. As I watched her, my foremost thought was that on the next day, Christmas, Terri should not have been confined to her small room in a hospice center, nice as that room was, but that she should have been gathered around the Christmas dinner table enjoying the holiday with her family.

Dragonlich · 03-21-2005, 12:03 PM

As far as I can tell from the reports, her brain is pretty much gone. If, by some miracle, she becomes conscious again, she's still not going to be more than a breathing, drooling piece of flesh. That's the best we can hope for.

So I have some questions for those in favor of keeping her alive:
1) What do you hope will happen? I.e. if we keep feeding her, what end result do you expect or hope for?
2) How long should we keep her on life support? 10 years? 20? 50? We can probably keep her "alive" for a hundred years... when does it end?
3) Who should pay for her medical care? How much are you willing to spend to restore her brain functions (if it were ever possible)?
4) Should this be a one-time situation, or should every person in this condition be kept alive for decades?
5) Should doctors be allowed to let anyone die at all? After all, they can do wonders with modern medical machines. We can probably keep a headless body "alive" with an artificial blood circulation. Should we? Where do you draw the line?

(Speaking from a country where euthanasia is legal, and where this woman would have been put out of her misery years ago. But then again, some US politicians have accused us of being evil for doing that...)

=============
(added after reading Stevo's post:)
=============
Stevo: "After reading this how can anyone say her brain is liquid?"...

After reading that, how can you say it isn't? You'd be amazed what reflexes and a tiny shred of brain tissue can do. Question is: how can you say that her instinctive (automatic) reactions are signs of a thinking, conscious human mind?

JBX · 03-21-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

There was no abuse of power here. What we have witnessed here is the congress exercising power over the federal courts, which is granted in Article 3 of the constitution. All federal courts (with the exception of the supreme court) are creations of congress. Congress can give these courts power and take their power away as it pleases. Like it or not, congress was well within its constitutional rights to act as it has.

Umm stevo... First, if they were granted this power by the constitution, why did the need a bill to accomplish their agenda? Second in your own quote it says FEDERAL COURT not State Court.

meembo · 03-21-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

There was no abuse of power here. What we have witnessed here is the congress exercising power over the federal courts, which is granted in Article 3 of the constitution. All federal courts (with the exception of the supreme court) are creations of congress. Congress can give these courts power and take their power away as it pleases. Like it or not, congress was well within its constitutional rights to act as it has.

I have to disagree with stevo on a couple of points.

Congress has a place in creating those courts, but they can't just "take away" the power. Congress creates law, the courts interpret. Very few governmental powers created or granted ever are taken away, and never voluntarily. The judicial branch (or any other branch) isn't ever likely to reliquish power (which I think is a good thing -- it adds stability to our governmental structure). But in this case, I think the establishment of this particular power (introducing federal courts to end-of-life decisions) is destabilizing. These day-to-day medical and emotional family decisions, made hundreds of times a day in the United States, are not the purvue of the federal government. If a court is needed, a local court should suffice. That system exists, and Terri's case has been through the hands of a dozen judges in 7 years with 150 doctors testifying about Terri's condition. Every judge has upheld Michael Schiavo's decision as Terri's guardian -- as it should be.

This is incorrectly being called a battle of Terri's civil rights, but it is only loosely disguised as another flex of political power of the religious right. Their strength and organization got Bush II re-elected. The congressional race next year, and the stream of federal judges to be appointed, are very much on the mind of Congress, and no one wants to be on the wrong side of the religious right.

As to Congress' right to act -- Congress was also within its rights to establish Prohibition and other stupid legislation and constitutional amendments, but their appropriateness and necessity are what's at question, both then and now. It's ironic that historically the GOP was the party asking for control of government intervention, and the Democrats were labeled the supporters of big government. Those political labels have completely turned around in my lifetime. Republicans are injecting federal judges into hospice rooms with patiens and doctors and families, and that's fucked up.

stevo · 03-21-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBX

Umm stevo... First, if they were granted this power by the constitution, why did the need a bill to accomplish their agenda? Second in your own quote it says FEDERAL COURT not State Court.

Thats how congress works. they pass bills to accomplish things. Without a bill you can't accomplish much.

Right. FEDERAL COURT. What the congress did was pass a bill to let the woman's parents ask a federal judge to prolong Schiavo's life by reinserting her feeding tube. That would be a FEDERAL JUDGE, in a FEDERAL COURT, under the authority of congress.

kutulu · 03-21-2005, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Here's a letter written by the family's attorney last christmas. She wrote another one over the weekend, I'm trying to find it. After reading this how can anyone say her brain is liquid?

Notice who wrote it: Their lawyer. They have been lying their asses off because they are detached with reality. I'm sure tomorrow we'll hear about how Terry was out playing basketball the other day.

This family has zero credibility in my eyes, especially after the sister now claiming Mr Shaivo may have been the one to put her in the PVS. Sure, after 15 years you only figured this out now...

stevo · 03-21-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Notice who wrote it: Their lawyer. They have been lying their asses off because they are detached with reality. I'm sure tomorrow we'll hear about how Terry was out playing basketball the other day.

This family has zero credibility in my eyes, especially after the sister now claiming Mr Shaivo may have been the one to put her in the PVS. Sure, after 15 years you only figured this out now...

So you weren't there, you don't know these people, but you know they are lying and you know that terri should die. you are so smart.

Willravel · 03-21-2005, 12:46 PM

I didn't have an opinion about this till today when a friend of mine asked me what I would want if I were in this woman's place. I would want to be kept alive until I became a burden on someone. I love life, but I love my family and friends more. If, God forbit, something happened to be that put me in a state like this, I'd want everyone to come and say goodbye and allow me to stop burdening them. If my wife wanted to let me pass, and my parents wanted to let me live (what a terrible situation), I wouldn't want them to battle over me. After I leave, I want them to still be family. So I just told my wife and my parents my wishes on the phone, along with some good news to kinda soften the somber message. Thanks, I appreciate you wanting to fight till the last second, but I'll be fine. My faith will keep me company.

Congress can go and make laws all they want, but they have no buisness in a case by case basis of things like this.

I also think that people shouldn't get mad at people on the other side of this argument. There is no right and wrong answer in this, it comes down to personal choice. If once side chooses one way, that is there right. If the other side chooses the the other way, that is their right as well.

stevo · 03-21-2005, 12:50 PM

I found the last letter written by Barbara Weller, now tell me this doesn't sound like a woman that knows whats going on and wants to live.

Quote:

Last Visit Narrative

by Attorney Barbara Weller

When Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube was removed at 1:45 p.m. on March 18, 2005, I was one of the most surprised people on the planet. I had been visiting Terri throughout the morning with her family and her priest. As part of the legal team working throughout the previous days and nights to save Terri from a horrific fate, I was very hopeful. Although the state judicial system had obviously failed Terri by not protecting her life, I knew other forces were still at work. I fully expected the federal courts would step in to reverse this injustice, just as they might for a prisoner unjustly set for execution—although by much more humane means than Terri would be executed. Barring that, I was certain that sometime around noon, the Florida Department of Children and Family Services would come to the Woodside Hospice facility in Pinellas Park and take Terri into protective custody. Or that federal marshals would arrive from Washington D.C, where the Congress was working furiously to try to save Terri, and would stand guard at her door to prevent any medical personnel from entering her room to remove the tube that was providing her nutrition and hydration.

Finally, I was sure if nothing else was working, that at 12:59,just before the hour scheduled for Terri’s gruesome execution to begin, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush would at least issue a 60-day reprieve for the legislative bodies to complete the work they were attempting to do to save Terri’s life and to make sure that no other vulnerable adults could be sentenced to starve to death in America. I had done the legal research weeks before and was fully convinced that Gov. Bush had the power, under our co-equal branches of government, to issue a reprieve in the face of a judicial death sentence intended to lead to the starvation and dehydration of an innocent woman when scores of doctors and neurologists were saying she could be helped.

All morning long, as I was in the room with Terri and her family, we were telling her that help was on the way. Terri was in good spirits that morning. The mood in her room was jovial, particularly around noontime, as we knew Congressional attorneys were on the scene and many were working hard to save Terri’s life. For most of that time, I was visiting and talking with Terri along with Terri’s sister Suzanne Vitadamo, Suzanne’s husband, and Terri’s aunt, who was visiting from New York to help provide support for the family. A female Pinellas Park police office was stationed at the door outside Terri’s room.

Terri was sitting up in her lounge chair, dressed and looking alert and well. Her feeding tube had been plugged in around 11 a.m. and we all felt good that she was still being fed. Suzanne and I were talking, joking, and laughing with Terri, telling her she was going to go to Washington D.C. to testify before Congress, which meant that finally Terri’s husband Michael would be required to fix her wheelchair. After that Suzanne could take Terri to the mall shopping and could wheel her outdoors every day to feel the wind and sunshine on her face, something she has not been able to do for more than five years.

At one point, I noticed Terri’s window blinds were pulled down. I went to the window to raise them so Terri could look at the beautiful garden outside her window and see the sun after several days of rain. As sunlight came into the room, Terri’s eyes widened and she was obviously very pleased. At another point, Suzanne and I told Terri she needed to suck in all the food she could because she might not be getting anything for a few days. During that time, Mary Schindler, Terri’s mother, joined us for a bit, and we noticed there were bubbles in Terri’s feeding tube. We joked that we didn’t want her to begin burping, and called the nurses to fix the feeding tube, which they did. Terri’s mother did not come back into the room. This was a very difficult day for Bob and Mary Schindler. I suspect they were less hopeful all along than I was, having lived through Terri’s last two feeding tube removals.

Suzanne and I continued to talk and joke with Terri for probably an hour or more. At one point Suzanne called Terri the bionic woman and I heard Terri laugh out loud heartily for the first time since I have been visiting with her. She laughed so hard that for the first time I noticed the dimples in her cheeks.

The most dramatic event of this visit happened at one point when I was sitting on Terri’s bed next to Suzanne. Terri was sitting in her lounge chair and her aunt was standing at the foot of the chair. I stood up and learned over Terri. I took her arms in both of my hands. I said to her, “Terri if you could only say ‘I want to live’ this whole thing could be over today.” I begged her to try very hard to say, “I want to live.” To my enormous shock and surprise, Terri’s eyes opened wide, she looked me square in the face, and with a look of great concentration, she said, “Ahhhhhhh.” Then, seeming to summon up all the strength she had, she virtually screamed, “Waaaaaaaa.” She yelled so loudly that Michael Vitadamo, Suzanne’s husband, and the female police officer who were then standing together outside Terri’s door, clearly heard her. At that point, Terri had a look of anguish on her face that I had never seen before and she seemed to be struggling hard, but was unable to complete the sentence. She became very frustrated and began to cry. I was horrified that I was obviously causing Terri so much anguish. Suzanne and I began to stroke Terri’s face and hair to comfort her. I told Terri I was very sorry. It had not been my intention to upset her so much. Suzanne and I assured Terri that her efforts were much appreciated and that she did not need to try to say anything more. I promised Terri I would tell the world that she had tried to say, ”I want to live.”

Suzanne and I continued to visit and talk with Terri, along with other family members who came and went in the room, until about 2:00 p.m. when we were all told to leave after Judge Greer denied yet another motion for stay and ordered the removal of the feeding tube to proceed. As we left the room, the female police officer outside the door was valiantly attempting to keep from crying.

Just as Terri’s husband Michael has told the world he must keep an alleged promise to kill Terri, a promise remembered a million dollars and nearly a decade after the fact; I must keep my promise to Terri immediately. Time is running out for her. I went out to the banks of cameras outside the hospice facility and told the story immediately. Now I must also tell the story in writing for the world to hear. It may be the last effective thing I can do to try to keep Terri alive so she can get the testing, therapy, and rehabilitative help she so desperately needs before it is too late.

About four in the afternoon, several hours after the feeding tube was removed, I returned to Terri’s room. By that time she was alone except for a male police officer now standing inside the door. When I entered the room and began to speak to her, Terri started to cry and tried to speak to me immediately. It was one of the most helpless feelings I have ever had. Terri was looking very melancholy at that point and I had the sense she was very upset that we had told her things were going to get better, but instead, they were obviously getting worse. I had previously had the same feeling when my own daughter was a baby who was hospitalized and was crying and looking to me to rescue her from her hospital crib, something I could not do. While I was in the room with Terri for the next half hour or so, several other friends came to visit and I did a few press interviews sitting right next to Terri. I again raised her window shade, which had again been pulled down, so Terri could at least see the garden and the sunshine from her lounge chair. I also turned the radio on in her room before I left so that when she was alone, she would at least have some music for comfort.

Just before I left the room, I leaned over Terri and spoke right into her ear. I told her I was very sorry I had not been able to stop the feeding tube from being taken out and I was very sorry I had to leave her alone. But I reminded her that Jesus would stay right by her side even when no one else was there with her. When I mentioned Jesus’ Name, Terri again laughed out loud. She became very agitated and began loudly trying to speak to me again. As Terri continued to laugh and try to speak, I quietly prayed in her ear, kissed her, placed her in Jesus’ care, and left the room.

Terri is alone now. As I write this last visit narrative, it is five in the morning of March 19. Terri has been without food and water for nearly 17 hours. I’m sure she is beginning at least become thirsty, if not hungry. And I am left to wonder how many other people care.

Willravel · 03-21-2005, 01:00 PM

Oh God. I had no idea about that, stevo. Thank you for that. If this is true, how is she a vegetable? Now I'm abit confused.

stevo · 03-21-2005, 01:03 PM

There is a lot of misinformation floating around. I would just be more inclined to believe something written by someone who was there, and err on the side of life.

JBX · 03-21-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Thats how congress works. they pass bills to accomplish things. Without a bill you can't accomplish much.

Right. FEDERAL COURT. What the congress did was pass a bill to let the woman's parents ask a federal judge to prolong Schiavo's life by reinserting her feeding tube. That would be a FEDERAL JUDGE, in a FEDERAL COURT, under the authority of congress.

There is no right at all for this to enter federal court, that IS the power grab.

arch13 · 03-21-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I found the last letter written by Barbara Weller, now tell me this doesn't sound like a woman that knows whats going on and wants to live.

So we should believe attorney's over doctors Stevo?
Let's make sure we have the contradiction straight here. Lawyers are bad and ruining America by participating with "Activist Judges" to subvert what is right and good unless they right letters pretendning to be doctors or know how to diagnos a woman in a vegative state?

A lawyer has no place or knowledge to right such a letter. It is an Op/Ed peice. Nothing more, nothing less. I'll file it under "opinion" with the rest. Unless of course you'd like to state that the doctors are part of some evil conspiracy.

03-20-2005, 07:13 PM	#201 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	Drudge is getting ready (in minutes so he says) to play alleged audio of Terri after having her feeding tube removed. You can probably find him on the AM dial as he is on in almost all states. Other than that, I know nothing of this audio. __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-20-2005, 07:21 PM	#203 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	I'm interested because it may play to her "cognitive abilities". My wife saw some of the recent video of Terri today and wondered how "out of it" she is. Prior to seeing the video, she was on the side of having the feeding tube removed, now she isn't sure. It is hard to watch those videos as it really isn't easy to tell if the women is aware or not--some of it looks a little to much to be considered purely reflexive. I'm not saying to put her tube back in, but we would be remiss to not look at all info available--even if it contradicts our perceived opinions. Edit: He hasn't played it yet, supposedly he will soon and post it to his website. __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-20-2005, 07:45 PM	#204 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	For anybody interested, here is a link: AUDIO Good luck though, the server is getting blasted right now. I listened to it. On the outside, it is disturbing. However, there really isn't anything to back it up or to verify its authenticity. I am bothered by the father starting it off by giving the day and time. Sounds like a set up, but I am not sure. __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-20-2005, 09:43 PM	#210 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Another take: It marriage is sacred and there should be less government in our lives, then her husband should have final say. It bothers me that politicians (on both sides) only stick to their principles when it is convenient. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-21-2005, 05:22 AM	#217 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	NOW was so jubiliant about it, they haven't seen fit to update their own website? Interesting... http://www.now.org/ -- as of right now, there's nothing on the website that backs up this story. But even if it is true, NOW should be appalled, so now it's up to the daddy to make the d decisions for her life, instead of the woman? __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

03-20-2005, 08:46 PM	#208 (permalink)
Hardknock Republican slayer Location: WA	Over 200 posts?? I don't believe it. Why does this issue stike a nerve with so many people? Tom Delay and his minions let alone the government have no business whatsoever meddling in the lives of one particular family. Why doesn the government get involved with this one particular case and not the thousands of others going throuh the same shit right now? The value of life? Give me a fucking break. Bush is supposed to be for state's rights but he want's to interviene on this issue? Please. I wouldn't want to live like that and pretty much the entire population would say the same (if you don't you're kidding yourself) so all those "protesters" trynig to sneak food into her room can just shut their trap.

03-20-2005, 09:00 PM	#209 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	This whole thing is just...sad. It really feels like so many people are out to push their own agenda. It's disgusting. Is there really no hope for recovery? Can they turn her brain back into functioning solid matter from the liquid mush it currently is? Can they do a partial brain transplant? What about stem-cell stuff, anything there? Is is possible to "grow" it back? Wow that is the ultimate political football - "Stem-cell research can save Terry Shialvo, Congress refuses to pass bill authorizing stem-cell research". Could be ironic.

03-21-2005, 03:44 AM	#214 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Now it seems GWBush has signed "emergency legislation" to reinsert this woman's food and water tubes...so she will go on being a political pawn for the religious right who violate her wishes to not be kept in a permanent vegetative state. It's moves like this which focus my dissatisfaction with Bush as a leader. At this point Bush is "playing god" just as much as anyone.

03-21-2005, 06:13 AM	#218 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	NCB, that's the second time you've posted satire without stating it as such (and from the same website, though at least this time you posted the link). This time you fooled a moderator. __________________ it's quiet in here

03-21-2005, 06:55 AM	#220 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	What we have witnessed is the abuse of power by the federal government. It is sad that all who swore to uphold the constitution abadoned it so quickly. __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

03-21-2005, 08:42 AM	#222 (permalink)
Prince /nɑndəsˈkrɪpt/ Location: LV-426	Yet another reason for me to get off my arse and prepare my Advance Directive. Just so I don't end up, like this woman, as porn for the morally over-conscious. __________________ Who is John Galt?

03-21-2005, 11:11 AM	#224 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I'm really pleased to see the general opinion here, that the federal government has no place in this. I read in the paper today that the general concensus in the US regarding Congress' intervention is 60% against, 35% pro, 5% undecided. I sat through these family discussions twice, once regarding my father, who survived and recovered, and once with an older brother, who did not survive, and died at home. Both times were intensely private, and I couldn't imagine accepting that a judge somewhere would, even could, make those kinds of decisions for my family. I didn't get a chance to read every post in this thread yet. Does anyone else think that all this eleventh-hour Congressional action is just to please the religious right in anticipation of next year's Congressional elections? I can see this case being right-wing mud-slinging ammunition already (Democrats killed Terri!). I usually am not personally offended by politics, but I am this time. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

03-21-2005, 11:44 AM	#227 (permalink)
Hardknock Republican slayer Location: WA	Constitutionaly? Ok. But morally, which the religious rights cliams to hold dear? She's a pawn. That's too bad.

03-21-2005, 12:03 PM	#229 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	As far as I can tell from the reports, her brain is pretty much gone. If, by some miracle, she becomes conscious again, she's still not going to be more than a breathing, drooling piece of flesh. That's the best we can hope for. So I have some questions for those in favor of keeping her alive: 1) What do you hope will happen? I.e. if we keep feeding her, what end result do you expect or hope for? 2) How long should we keep her on life support? 10 years? 20? 50? We can probably keep her "alive" for a hundred years... when does it end? 3) Who should pay for her medical care? How much are you willing to spend to restore her brain functions (if it were ever possible)? 4) Should this be a one-time situation, or should every person in this condition be kept alive for decades? 5) Should doctors be allowed to let anyone die at all? After all, they can do wonders with modern medical machines. We can probably keep a headless body "alive" with an artificial blood circulation. Should we? Where do you draw the line? (Speaking from a country where euthanasia is legal, and where this woman would have been put out of her misery years ago. But then again, some US politicians have accused us of being evil for doing that...) ============= (added after reading Stevo's post:) ============= Stevo: "After reading this how can anyone say her brain is liquid?"... After reading that, how can you say it isn't? You'd be amazed what reflexes and a tiny shred of brain tissue can do. Question is: how can you say that her instinctive (automatic) reactions are signs of a thinking, conscious human mind? Last edited by Dragonlich; 03-21-2005 at 12:09 PM..

03-21-2005, 12:46 PM	#235 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I didn't have an opinion about this till today when a friend of mine asked me what I would want if I were in this woman's place. I would want to be kept alive until I became a burden on someone. I love life, but I love my family and friends more. If, God forbit, something happened to be that put me in a state like this, I'd want everyone to come and say goodbye and allow me to stop burdening them. If my wife wanted to let me pass, and my parents wanted to let me live (what a terrible situation), I wouldn't want them to battle over me. After I leave, I want them to still be family. So I just told my wife and my parents my wishes on the phone, along with some good news to kinda soften the somber message. Thanks, I appreciate you wanting to fight till the last second, but I'll be fine. My faith will keep me company. Congress can go and make laws all they want, but they have no buisness in a case by case basis of things like this. I also think that people shouldn't get mad at people on the other side of this argument. There is no right and wrong answer in this, it comes down to personal choice. If once side chooses one way, that is there right. If the other side chooses the the other way, that is their right as well.

03-21-2005, 01:00 PM	#237 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Oh God. I had no idea about that, stevo. Thank you for that. If this is true, how is she a vegetable? Now I'm abit confused.

03-21-2005, 01:03 PM	#238 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	There is a lot of misinformation floating around. I would just be more inclined to believe something written by someone who was there, and err on the side of life. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser