lurkette

Thanks, JBX, but I don't pretend to understand what this woman's parents are going through. It's their daughter, and I can understand how they'd want to hope against hope that she could come back. None of us knows all of the story, but from what I've heard her cerebral cortex is just...gone. There's no recovery from that, and if it's true, then the parents are just deluded, and it would be kinder to just let her go. Everything they've seen, that I've read about, that they're interpreting as trying to communicate sounds like reflexes that they're just interpreting as what they want to see.

But to really cover all the bases, it seems like what might be best is to have a third party, or maybe a panel of medical specialists who aren't paid for by the parents or the husband or the special interest groups, make an unbiased assessment of her case and see if she does have any chance at recovery. I thought that's what the judge was supposed to do, but apparently that's not good enough for the Florida legislature. There's SO much spin being put on this thing by right-to-life and right-to-die and disabled rights advocates that it's hard to judge from the outside. But having been there with my brother, I know how tempting it is to hold onto hope that somehow this person you love could come back to you as they were before. But from what I've heard, it's just not gonna happen in this case.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

StormBerlin

It's sad the this woman who hasn't done anything wrong will most likely starve to death or something equally worse while some bastard who's on death row will get a painless injection for the sake of humane treatment. free country indeed...

__________________
"if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

matt_mll

I feel bad for the poor girl. After 10 years I would (personally) hope someone pulled the plug... lurkette: your story was touching, thank you for sharing.

lurkette

I'm bumping the Schiavo case discussion since today is the day her feeding tube is supposed to be removed. The federal government is now getting involved:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7212079/
--------------------
GOP leaders step in to keep Schiavo alive
House subpoenas planned to halt removal of her feeding tube
Chris O'meara / AP

MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 9:15 a.m. ET March 18, 2005

WASHINGTON - Working against the clock, House Republican leaders tried to prevent doctors in Florida from removing the feeding tube Friday from Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman at the center of a battle between her husband and her parents.

“This inquiry should give hope to Terri, her parents and friends and the millions of people throughout the world who are praying for her safety,” House Speaker Dennis Hastert, Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Government Reform Committee chairman Tom Davis said in a joint statement issued overnight. “This fight is not over.”

In a two-pronged approach, the House committee was issuing congressional subpoenas to stop doctors from disconnecting the tube, saying the case is part of Congress' look at federal health care policy.

Separately, an attorney for Schiavo's parents will ask a federal judge in Tampa to block the removal and review the actions of state courts. Such habeas corpus appeals seek to require the government to justify its actions.

“We are going to ask him to issue a stay because in this case, state action would be used to end the life of an innocent, disabled woman,” said the attorney, David Gibbs.

Protesters expected
Police in Pinellas Park, Fla., meanwhile, readied for the hundreds of protesters expected to show up outside Schiavo’s hospice as the hours slipped away before the scheduled 1 p.m. ET removal of her feeding tube.

The legislative effort came after lawmakers in both Washington and Tallahassee failed in attempts to pass legislation to keep her husband, Michael Schiavo, from having the tube pulled despite heavy lobbying by Schiavo’s parents.

The Florida House on Thursday passed a bill 78-37 to block the withholding of food and water from patients in a persistent vegetative state who did not leave specific instructions regarding their care. But hours later, the state Senate defeated a different measure 21-16, and one of the nine Republicans voting against indicated that any further votes would be futile.

In a last-ditch attempt to stop the court-ordered removal, the U.S. House Government Reform Committee decided early Friday to start an investigation into Schiavo’s case.

In their statement, the Republican leaders said the subpoenas will "require hospice administrators and attending physicians to preserve nutrition and hydration for Terri Schiavo to allow Congress to fully understand the procedures and practices that are keeping her alive."

The Senate will investigate as well, the statement said.

Health care justification
The Government Reform Committee — the same committee that forced Major League Baseball players and officials to testify Thursday about steroid use — justified the inquiry as a government priority.

The GOP leadership statement said the investigation would look "into the long term care of incapacitated adults, an issue of growing importance to the federal government and federal healthcare policy."

It was not immediately known when the subpoenas would be delivered to Schiavo’s hospice and doctors, or whether the Florida health care providers would recognize them. A possible penalty for not recognizing the subpoena is to be held in contempt of Congress, a GOP leadership aide said.

“Everything is a longshot,” said Gibbs, attorney for Schiavo’s parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

Bush brothers 'in favor of life'
As part of the last-minute flurry of activity, the Florida judge who approved the withdrawal of food and water from Schiavo denied a request from the state to keep her alive. The state appealed that decision to the Florida Supreme Court, which promptly dismissed it. The U.S. Supreme Court also denied another appeal.

At the White House, President Bush left little doubt where he stands.

“The case of Terri Schiavo raises complex issues,” he said in a statement. “Yet in instances like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life. Those who live at the mercy of others deserve our special care and concern.”

His brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, long has supported the parents’ efforts and urged lawmakers to act before it was too late.

The president on Friday left for Florida for a previously scheduled visit to talk about his Social Security reform ideas.

Background to the case
Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance, and court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, says she told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, and say she could get better.

The court found that it was Terri Schiavo’s wish not to kept alive in her current state and issued an order to remove the feeding tube Friday. Michael Schiavo’s attorney, George Felos, wouldn’t comment on when and how the removal will take place or whether Michael Schiavo would visit his wife before it happened.

Doctors have said it could take a week or two for Terri Schiavo to die once the tube that delivers water and nutrients is removed.
----------------

This just bugs the hell out of me. Why is the government getting involved? Because this is an emotional case with well-connected litigants. They have no business interfering. Florida courts have found several times that 1. there's NO hope for recovery, and 2. there's clear and compelling evidence that she would have wanted to be removed from life support if there was no hope for recovery.

The parents say there's cognitive activity - it's wishful thinking. She looks blissed out because she has NO FUCKING CEREBRUM! She responds the same way to her parents as she does to a mylar balloon - reflexively. You can't just regrow a cerebrum. The therapies that the Schindlers' doctors are suggesting have been widely disproven, and there's nothing on the horizon that could even hope to bring her back from a persistent vegetative state.

A lot of disabled people are protesting, saying "doctors claimed I'd never be able to put two words together, and look at me now!" Sure, medical science does not always get the prognosis right; but there's a difference between the brain rewiring itself to get around damage, and regrowing an essential part of the brain that's been missing for a decade. You can't generalize from anecdotal accounts of recovery.

At what point does "respect for life" become the willful torture of a human being to make us comfortable about our notions of life, death, hope, recovery, etc? Just because someone really, really wants to believe that recovery is possible doesn't make it so. And Congress can intervene all it wants, but that's not going to help this woman - it's only going to prolong her non-being.

Part of me says it doesn't really matter - it's not like she's suffering. But there's a consciousness that's essentially trapped in a completely useless body and mind. Let the poor woman go.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

NCB

If it were as clear cut as that, then you would get no argument from most conservatives. However, there are medical opinions on both sides of the issue. Would it not be best to side twith the presumption of life?

Clear and compelling? Her husband's word does not constitute clear and compelling. Sorry.


BTW, y'all know that Hitler began his murdering by killing the handicapped for both their own good and the country's good.

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Superbelt

Did you miss the part where she has no solid conscious brain matter left?

Manx

For over 4 years now judges have reviewed medical evidence and testimony and none of them have agreed that Schiavo is not in a persistent vegetative state. I'm sure I could pay a doctor to claim she is really a man, but that medical opinion isn't going to hold up in the face of a ton of other medical opinions stating she is a woman.
It actually has to go the other way here. The husband is the legal guardian. He is legally bound to follow what he believes is the wish of his wife. You need clear and compelling evidence that his word (and the word of his brother and sister in law), stating that Terry made it clear she would not want to be kept alive in this state, is wrong.

For over 4 years, legal battles have been fought almost exclusively based on suspicion of the husband. In that time, accusations have been made but ultimately there is no evidence that the husband is not doing what he believes is the wish of his wife. Suspicion lacking any evidence should have long ago been dismissed as a reason to prevent him from doing what he is legally bound to do.

dksuddeth

Because people want to 'err on the side of life' with their emotions we now have set precedent where the government can usurp a spouses responsibility over the quality of life wish from their wife/husband. Thanks alot for violating the sacrament of marriage with your emotions.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

NCB

Terri Schiavo Can Still be Rehabilitated, Nobel Prize-Nominated Doctor Says

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by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
March 7, 2005

Clearwater, FL (LifeNews.com) -- Despite the contention of Terri Schiavo's estranged husband Michael and courts that have allowed him to starve her to death, a doctor nominated for the Nobel Prize says he believes medical therapies are still available that could help Terri party recover from her disabled state.

Dr. William Hammesfahr is an internationally recognized expert on cases of brain-injured patients. He has been identified in helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long term disability, and return to work.

Terri Schiavo's injury, hypoxic encephalopathy, is a type of stroke that he treats every day with success.

"We, and others I know, have treated many patients worse than Terri and have seen them regain independence and dignity," Hammesfahr said.

"There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo," Dr. Hammesfahr explained. "I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays."

"It is time to help Terri, instead of just warehousing her," he added. "She would have benefited from treatment years ago, but it is not too late to start now."

This isn't the first time Hammesfahr has discussed Terri's plight.

Last year, he explained that, after examining Terri, he believed that she could eventually eat and drink on her own. He also said he believes Terri would be able to talk and have good use of one arm and one hand should be given proper rehabilitative treatment.

Hammesfahr also said he thought Terri would eventually be able to transfer herself from a wheelchair to a bed.

"The patient is not in a coma," concluded Hammesfahr said after observing Terri. "She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise."

He says Terri's eyes clearly fixate on her family and she tries to follow the simple commands her parents give her.
"She looks at you, she can follow commands," Hammesfahr said.

Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999.

__________________

NCB

So here's where y'all stand:

You hold vigils outside of the Central Prison for coldblooded killers waiting to be executed, croc tears and all, but are silent when a women is about to be starved to death.

Good luck explaining that one to your God.

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lurkette

1. None of the medical experts who have reviewed Schiavo's case debate that she is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) - the only disagreement is whether she could eventually learn to swallow on her own. That is what "recovery" means in this case - not that she would ever have cognitive function or consciousness, but whether she could be rehabilitated to the point where she could SWALLOW. What the fuck kind of life is that?!? And all of the medical experts who have been called in by people OTHER than the parents have agreed that even this small level of recovery is basically impossible.

2. The husband's words were not the only words considered by the court - they listened to testimony from dozens of her friends and acquaintances, after which they (the court) found "clear and compelling" evidence (which is actually a pretty high legal standard) that she would not want to be kept in a PVS.

Further, the husband is not "advocating" for anything - he has turned over guardianship of her to the courts and left it up to them to decide; this matter is not really between the parents and the husband, as it has been framed, but between the parents and the courts, who have found over and over and over and over AND OVER that the woman is not coming back and that she would not want to "live" like this.

Please understand that this is not about disability - it's not like she's a quadriplegic, or has Down's Syndrome, or has localized brain damage that renders her incapable of communicating. THE PART OF YOUR BRAIN THAT MAKES YOU HUMAN IS GONE!

http://biology.about.com/library/org...blcerebrum.htm
Cerebrum

Function:

* Determines Intelligence

* Personality

* Interpretation of Sensory Impulses

* Motor Function

* Planning and Organization

* Touch Sensation

Do you want to see how much of the brain the cerebrum makes up?
[img]http://eduweb.brandonu.ca/~science/diagrams/cerebrum_1.gif[img]

Educate yourself before you go comparing me to Hitler.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Manx

She has asked not to be given life prolonging treatment.

If a criminal serving a life sentence asked to be killed, I'd have no issue with that.

But thanks for telling me "where I stand".

dksuddeth

You shouldn't presume to know where people stand. It can only make you look foolish.

And this is a prime example of my statement above. You lump me in with a group of people that denounce the death penalty because I side with spousal responsibility. Not very logical of you.


And those who have no problem explaining away collateral damage in the form of civilian deaths during war should have no problem explaining to god how they were comfortable with it happening? Good luck explaining that one also.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

NCB

None of the expert cited by her husband. Let's be clear here.


Wow, what a guy. The parents have repeatedly asked for him to turn over guardianship to them. But instead, he turns it over to a colorless entity.

Why not turn het over to her parents care? Oh, that's right. Then the money awarded to him from the malpractice suit will not be his. And of course her life insurance policy money will have to be on hold before it reaches his account.


.

Perhaps you should educate yourself in history. I didn't call you Hitler, I was just making the point that the murder of millions of people began under a regime that would have sided with your argument in this case.

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Manx

Not only is there no money left having been spent on medical treatment and the defense of her legal right, but he turned down a $1 million payment to walk away. So again, these "suspicions" concerning the husband are entirely baseless.

lurkette

Oh that's such a huge distinction, and so very relevant. Thank you for clarifying

The husband turned down more money than he would have received in life insurance. Is it beyond comprehension that he would be genuinely fighting for what he believes are his wife's wishes, and not for material gain?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

NCB

The evidence on that is murky at best, and you know it

You're siding with death. Spousal responsibilty just provides a convient cover.

So am I incorrect with where you stand on the issues?

Didn't think so

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Manx

No. It is not even remotely murky. And you should know it, but you just up and decided that you didn't want to believe it.

Superbelt

I love that line. Just because it shows the slant so well.

NCB. Let her go to God. Why make her sit in a sensory free prison like that for over a decade? You deserve a kick in the ass by her one day when you two meet.

Michael didn't turn over control to her parents because they want only one thing, to keep her breathing. He moved it to the court becuase they have no preconceived decision made.

BTW, I never have been to a prison vigil.

NCB

The history is what it is. You probably didn't know that Hitler began by killing off the handicaped in the name of humanity (and country too). When you understand that, and look at how this case is going, does it not at least give you pause? I'm not saying that it's an opinion altering fact, but it should at least send a chill down your spine.


Anyways, it looks as if she'll be starved begining today. Time to celebrate a victory in the name of compassion I reckon'

__________________

NCB

I'll take my chances. But I would like to be a fly on the walls of Heavan when her and hubby meet.

__________________

Superbelt

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...e/11104326.htm
The bastard is probably just holding out for more money.

One BILLION Dollars!

dksuddeth

hmmm, simple excuse for you. you're one of the 'life at all costs' person, right? I noticed that you didn't touch on the last portion of my first reply to you though.



then you shouldn't think so much. FYI, I have a spouse with a potentially fatal condition. I've already steeled myself for the difficult decision I may have to make but I hope it never comes about. You presume too much based on emotions when you couldn't possibly fathom the enormous responsibility that comes with the decision being made.

You ARE incorrect on where I stand on this issue. You can obfuscate all you like, it still comes down to the spousal responsibility to fulfill the last request. It's not about siding with life or death no matter how much you try to make it that.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

and would you kick yourself in the ass if you saw her thank him for it?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

ShaniFaye

Im not going to debate anybody on this...Im only giving my opinion here.....rush to death? Its been 15 years.....her parents need to let her go

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Superbelt

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/sc...ged/index.html
Congress has supoenaed a vegetable.
Yeah.....

Congressman Delay: Thank you for coming Mrs. Schiavo. Please, in your own words, tell us all about your plans for the future once we miraculously reverse the jello that is your conscious mind.

Schiavo: ....


If you're a fetus, conservatives raise hell to make sure you get born

if you're in a vegetative state or prolonged coma, conservatives raise hell to keep the machines pumping

If you have a horribly debilitating and painful condition that ensures you have a long and painful death, conservatives make sure we do all we can to make that death as long as possible.

For everyone else, we don't give a fuck about you. Once you're out of the womb and healthy, Lock and Load.

ShaniFaye

I cannot believe they are asking them to bring that poor woman up there....if they wanna see her so bad why dont they get their butts on a plane to florida?

jeezy creezy that is just fucking insane.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

StanT

Likewise, this isn't a debate I care to enter. However, I do have a living will (that my wife could legally override). I have also left explicit instructions with my wife that I would not wish to be kept alive under similar circumstances. I couldn't care less if she shacked up with another guy under similar circumstances, but I'd never forgive her if she let me lay there for one year, let alone 15.

My parents are also as Catholic as it gets, I've explained to them that they do not get a vote. I expect that they would still disagree with my wife, but would not pursue it.

Lebell

Yes,

I saw the recent development as well.

All I can say is that I think her parents care more for themselves than for her.

I sincerely doubt that a living would have made a difference to them.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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NCB

Yes, I probably would. However, I prefer to err on the side of life, but that's just the primitive God fearing Catholic in me

__________________

NCB

I think that's a little too mean spirited. Since none of us (assuming, considering the odds) have never been in a position of having a child in this situation, perhaps it's best to reserve judgement on them. My heart breaks for them.

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Superbelt

Don't you think she would have enjoyed being in heaven these last 13 years rather than be trapped in a decomposing mass of flesh?

You believe in an afterlife, so do most (if not all) of the people who want to keep her body alive. You know she will have a better existance there than here in a worthless mass. Why would you be so cruel?

NCB

Why do you want that woman to die so badly? Why the bloodlust?. Is she suffering? None of us know. Is she aware? None of really know. Did she want to die? None of us really know.

Look, no one wants her to suffer needlessly. However, if this is such a clear cut case, that's one thing (yes, Manx, I saw your statement on the "expert" . But I could find mine as well to say the opposite), but it's not. There is doubt here.

That said, I just prefer to err on the side of life. Call me what you will.

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Superbelt

I don't *want* her to die. I support her husband who knew and loved her better than anyone else. His decision is enough for me to want to support.
He knows everything that went on in her life.

stevo

Because it is not up to man to decide when someone dies. God has given us tools to help prolong life here on Earth and we are to use them. When God wants her in heaven he will take her. Until then, man should do everything he can with the tools God has given so that she may continue to live, no matter what people may call the life she has. It is HER life and to some people they couldn't care less. Just because it isn't a normal life, since she lives in a hospital bed and has less brain function than a normal person, some people argue that she should die. And not just die, but starve to death.


--ps, about her enjoying the last 13 years in heaven...In the concept of eternity, 13 years is nothing.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Superbelt

13 years like that is an eternity here on earth.

BTW. God didn't give us those tools. We made them ourselves. Free will, ya know.

NCB

Just heard that a judge blocked the removal of the tube until later this month. Have;t seen it in print yet though.

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lurkette

I know my history quite well, thanks, and I also know that the systematic killing of handicapped people because of the assumption that they are inferior, and systematic eugenics programs that try to "breed" defects out of the population, are a far cry from attempting to carry out what the court has OBJECTIVELY deemed were a woman's wishes regarding her own life and death. It's a pretty clear distinction, and bringing up Hitler only clouds the issue. Perhaps that's the point?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

ShaniFaye

I hope her parents are happy....and since they seem to think she'll live another 30 or 40 years as long as she has the tube....I hope they enjoy another 30-40 years of seeing her having to lie in a bed, accomplishing nothing, depending on other things and other people to keep her going, watching her not be able to do anything for herself, or communicate in any way, I hope it does their hearts good everytime they walk in that hospital room to know that once again they've been instrumental in keeping her in that vegetative state.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

lurkette

EXACTLY why her wishes to die in this circumstance should be respected. IT'S HER LIFE. Not her parents'.

Um, sorry, it's not just "less brain function" - it's essentially NO higher brain function. Her limbic system is intact, so she continues to breathe, her heart beats, and she can react reflexively to stimuli, but in all reality, she is no longer alive. It's not like a person who couldn't feed themselves but wanted to live...she can't WANT anything. The part of her brain that "wants" disappeared 13 years ago.

Let.
Her.
Go.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France