Israeli Propaganda or Truth - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sun Tzu · 10-20-2003, 09:29 AM

"Beep Beep" Yes I read it. I included that for a reason, I should have done a post for it alone, but I feel addresses what this thread is about.
If you go back to any of my posts I always provide sources from both sides with opposing views. IMO it provides a better foundation for discussion then hunting for agreement sites which never gets a point across to those that its intended for. Ofcourse they never do anyway.

I see interpretation being what one reads; divided by what they witness with the main senses of observation; sight and hearing. I'll give you my take on Yael's tidy explanation.

The second quote I posted, many mistake for this (whether intentional or not who knows)

http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/geyer2.html

Tell me what your interpretation of this excerpt is:

After AD 70, the Jews lost their land politically but they still maintained a presence in the land despite foreign control by the Romans, Ottoman Turks, the Crusaders, the Turks, and then the British. The land of Israel was under foreign control and was never made into an independent nation until 1948.

The term "Palestinian" is confusing because before 1948, this term not only referred to Arabs but to Jews as well as Christians living in the region of Palestine. It is peculiar that the "Palestinian" identity of the Arabs in Israel did not emerge until 1968; 20 years after Israel became a nation. If Palestinians, who supposedly have a right to the land, are correct then why did they wait 20 years to simply confirm their identity? The fact is there is no such thing as a Palestinian nationality.

Facts will prove that even some "Palestinian" leaders are not Palestinians as they so claim. Look at the nationality of Yassir Arafat. He is not a Palestinian for he was born in Cairo, Egypt even though he has claimed he was born in Jerusalem.

What about the refugee problem concerning the Palestinians? The facts are when Israel became a nation in 1948; the Arab nations told the Arabs living in Israel to flee because they believed that they would have a quick victory over the Jews. This never happened and these so-called refugees had no homes. But the facts are that the total number of refugees are inflated as many Arabs flooded into Israel after 1948 and they were counted as refugees. Also while the number of refugee births was taken, the number of refugee deaths was not. Even now the Palestinians will not allow a census to be taken of the refugees.

Another group of refugees that we neglect to look into are the Jewish refugees who left vast amounts of wealth and property behind in Arab nations (which Arab nations confiscated) in order to flee to their beloved Israel where they knew that they would receive a better life there instead of being a discriminated minority in Arab nations.

Arab nations have the full capabilities of taking in Palestinian refugees and assimilating them into their nations but they refuse to do so (except Jordan). These refugees are simply used as pawns by their own brothers - the Arabs in order for this refugee problem to a thorn in Israel's side. Arab nations know that the world will look with disdain over Israel's supposed "maltreatment" of refugees. If Israel is being a little hard on the refugees, this is minimal compared to the centuries of brutality that the Jews suffered at the hands of Muslims.

What are your thoughts on this organization:

http://www.ict.org.il/

Lastly what are you thoughts to the second part of my previous post.

debaser · 10-20-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
If I were an Israeli I would consider him a hero. Hell I'm not an Israeli and I think he is a hero. He is a man who has been at the frontlines fighting those who would destroy him and his people for over 50 years. It's not my place to judge him, that is between him and Yahweh. You have to look at the context of the situation... The Arabs never wanted peace, they don't today, and they won't tomorrow. What you don't understand is you can't play nice when it comes to war, its either kill first or be killed, just happens that Ariel Sharon is very good at bringing the pain to the Arabs.

Sharon is a butcher and a pig. He is far more adept at bringing pain to Israelis, in order to keep himself in power, than he is to the Arabs.

He wants peace no more than Arafat, war keeps them both on the throne.

Honestly, what could be more stupid and counter productive than reprisals against suicide bombers. The people who you are trying to kill don't give a damn, and the people you end up killing just pisses others off so much that they become suicide bombers.

When you get stung by a wasp, do you go and beat the nest with a stick?

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-20-2003, 02:16 PM

The excerpt sounds pretty square to me, perhaps a little one sided, but truthful in just about every aspect. As far as the organization goes, I think it is a bunch of scared Jews who live in the reality of almost daily terrorists attacks. Anyone would be batty if that were the case.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-20-2003, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser

Honestly, what could be more stupid and counter productive than reprisals against suicide bombers. The people who you are trying to kill don't give a damn, and the people you end up killing just pisses others off so much that they become suicide bombers.

When you get stung by a wasp, do you go and beat the nest with a stick?

No I roll in with a bunch of tanks and don't take shit sitting down, never give into the bully mentality. I would honestly push for an all out war between the parties, its about time that they end this shit, and we all know that they both want too.

debaser · 10-20-2003, 02:29 PM

Israel is the textbook definition of the bully mentality. Who would they fight? The vast majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with the attacks on Israel, yet they would be the ones victimized and radicalized by an armed conflict.

Food Eater Lad · 10-20-2003, 02:46 PM

Israel needs terrorism so they can steal more land and then claim they are doing it for security reasons. If there were no suicide bombings, then Israel would just be a land theif.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-20-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
Israel is the textbook definition of the bully mentality. Who would they fight? The vast majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with the attacks on Israel, yet they would be the ones victimized and radicalized by an armed conflict.

I was more referring to Israel and all Arabs.

Mael · 10-20-2003, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
Israel needs terrorism so they can steal more land and then claim they are doing it for security reasons. If there were no suicide bombings, then Israel would just be a land theif.

i don't understand why people say they stole the land... so please enlighten me. the way i've always seen it was, since the people we refer to as palestinians today took sides against isreal in the 1967 war, the area that isreal conqured in the war is theirs. i'm sorry, but if you attack a country, and lose and have your land taken over, tough shit. you shouldn't have gotten involved. isreal's no more of a land theif than the US is. Hell, we went as far as to nearly exterminate the native people of this continent, and I don't hear anyone saying "give them back New York."

Food Eater Lad · 10-20-2003, 09:23 PM

So you deny that Israel is making illegal settlements? wow talk about denial.

Mael · 10-20-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
So you deny that Israel is making illegal settlements? wow talk about denial.

it's got nothing to do with denial. i don't see the illegality of it. territory aquired through war, especially a defensive war, i don't see as being illegally annexed. territory has always been gained and lost through war. just now, for the first time in history, people think it's okay to cry like a little baby about losing that territory in war. if you pick the losing side, i think you have to deal with the consequences. please, explain to me how it's illegal.

Food Eater Lad · 10-21-2003, 06:50 AM

What war did Israel fight since 1999? There are over 100 illegally seized settlements since that date.

Darkblack · 10-21-2003, 07:33 AM

Quote:

I roll in with a bunch of tanks and don't take shit sitting down, never give into the bully mentality.

Yeah, fight men with shit strapped to them with tanks because they are bullies. rofl

Quote:

Originally posted by Mael
i don't understand why people say they stole the land... so please enlighten me. the way i've always seen it was, since the people we refer to as palestinians today took sides against isreal in the 1967 war, the area that isreal conqured in the war is theirs. i'm sorry, but if you attack a country, and lose and have your land taken over, tough shit. you shouldn't have gotten involved. isreal's no more of a land theif than the US is. Hell, we went as far as to nearly exterminate the native people of this continent, and I don't hear anyone saying "give them back New York."

I would be all for giving them back their land. We did steel it.

Mael · 10-21-2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
What war did Israel fight since 1999? There are over 100 illegally seized settlements since that date.

what does 1999 have to do with anything? the west bank was annexed/has been occupied/<insert your own term here> since the 1967 war. i actually could be wrong about which war exactly, but it was one of the wars in the 60's, haven't researched them in a few years. anyways, starting a settlement in the area they annexed is their right. doesn't matter when. if they went and started a settlement in, say, syria, right now, that would be an illegal settlement. i realize the west bank is considered by much of the other world as being "disputed." but A) isreal doesn't consider it such, B) the people disputing it are the people who lost the war. they can cry me a river and drown in it if they don't like it.

so again (3rd time), tell me, how is it illegal?

SLM3 · 10-21-2003, 02:26 PM

The West Bank and Gaza has not been annexed, although many see that as Israel's ultimate goal. It doesn't technically belong to any state. It is simply occupied by Isreal. The brutality of this occupation, however, is a far from simple affair.

SLM3

Food Eater Lad · 10-21-2003, 04:52 PM

I thought the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be free from Israel rule and settlements. But it seems Israel doesnt care and since 1999( i picked that year cause i dont know how many settlements were illegally created before that) they made over 100 illegal settlements, kicking people out of homes, oftem with bulldozers, thus fueling the fires of terrorism.

Mael · 10-21-2003, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
I thought the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be free from Israel rule and settlements. But it seems Israel doesnt care and since 1999( i picked that year cause i dont know how many settlements were illegally created before that) they made over 100 illegal settlements, kicking people out of homes, oftem with bulldozers, thus fueling the fires of terrorism.

why do you think that they are supposed to be free from isreal rule and settlements? what makes the isreali settlements illegal? please, for the fourth time, tell me why they're illegal.

Food Eater Lad · 10-21-2003, 05:37 PM

Cause the world recognises that they are Palastinian lands. If they were truly part of Israel, why to the people that live there consider themselves Palastinian, and vote for Palastinian Prime Ministers, and need passports to go into Israel. Doesnt sound like part of Israel to me.
Why is Israel building in those lands declared illegal buy both the UN and the USA?

SLM3 · 10-21-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mael
why do you think that they are supposed to be free from isreal rule and settlements? what makes the isreali settlements illegal? please, for the fourth time, tell me why they're illegal.

Ok.

The Geneva Convention explicitly forbids the occupying power from transfering its population into the land it occupies. Furthermore, the UN and pretty much every other int'l legal entity has applied this to Israel's settlements.

As the belligerent occupier, Israel is required to defer to the pre-belligerency political identity of the occupied territory. Belligerent occupation connotes only a temporary, provisional circumstance and implicit duty to withdraw once hostilites have been brought to an end. Contemporary legal notion reinforces the idea that war no longer provides a foundation to grab land. This right to territory as a part of conquest no longer exists the way you're thinking of it. The whole freakin point of belligerent occupation is to fascilitate a peaceful settlement. Do you think illegal Israeli settlements are doing that?

SLM3

popo · 10-21-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
Ok.

The Geneva Convention explicitly forbids the occupying power from transfering its population into the land it occupies. Furthermore, the UN and pretty much every other int'l legal entity has applied this to Israel's settlements.

As the belligerent occupier, Israel is required to defer to the pre-belligerency political identity of the occupied territory. Belligerent occupation connotes only a temporary, provisional circumstance and implicit duty to withdraw once hostilites have been brought to an end. Contemporary legal notion reinforces the idea that war no longer provides a foundation to grab land. This right to territory as a part of conquest no longer exists the way you're thinking of it. The whole freakin point of belligerent occupation is to fascilitate a peaceful settlement. Do you think illegal Israeli settlements are doing that?

SLM3

What you say is correct but there's a big hangup in there: Israel did offer back the lands almost immediately after winning it in return for full peace. Go google the Khartoum Conference for the Arab states' response. I'll give you a hint... "No peace, No Recognition, No Negotiations". They didn't enjoy being humiliated by the war and weren't about to go along with Israel's plan of obtaining land and using it to get peace.

If no one is there to take the land back, Israel is under no responsibility to give it up. I happen to disagree with the settlements but IMO they're such a tiny piece of pie that are used as an easy scapegoat. While I disagree with the settlements, I do agree with keeping the land until negotiations for peace are finalized. And the UN (including Resolution 242) agrees with that policy.

10-20-2003, 09:29 AM	#41 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	"Beep Beep" Yes I read it. I included that for a reason, I should have done a post for it alone, but I feel addresses what this thread is about. If you go back to any of my posts I always provide sources from both sides with opposing views. IMO it provides a better foundation for discussion then hunting for agreement sites which never gets a point across to those that its intended for. Ofcourse they never do anyway. I see interpretation being what one reads; divided by what they witness with the main senses of observation; sight and hearing. I'll give you my take on Yael's tidy explanation. The second quote I posted, many mistake for this (whether intentional or not who knows) http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/geyer2.html Tell me what your interpretation of this excerpt is: After AD 70, the Jews lost their land politically but they still maintained a presence in the land despite foreign control by the Romans, Ottoman Turks, the Crusaders, the Turks, and then the British. The land of Israel was under foreign control and was never made into an independent nation until 1948. The term "Palestinian" is confusing because before 1948, this term not only referred to Arabs but to Jews as well as Christians living in the region of Palestine. It is peculiar that the "Palestinian" identity of the Arabs in Israel did not emerge until 1968; 20 years after Israel became a nation. If Palestinians, who supposedly have a right to the land, are correct then why did they wait 20 years to simply confirm their identity? The fact is there is no such thing as a Palestinian nationality. Facts will prove that even some "Palestinian" leaders are not Palestinians as they so claim. Look at the nationality of Yassir Arafat. He is not a Palestinian for he was born in Cairo, Egypt even though he has claimed he was born in Jerusalem. What about the refugee problem concerning the Palestinians? The facts are when Israel became a nation in 1948; the Arab nations told the Arabs living in Israel to flee because they believed that they would have a quick victory over the Jews. This never happened and these so-called refugees had no homes. But the facts are that the total number of refugees are inflated as many Arabs flooded into Israel after 1948 and they were counted as refugees. Also while the number of refugee births was taken, the number of refugee deaths was not. Even now the Palestinians will not allow a census to be taken of the refugees. Another group of refugees that we neglect to look into are the Jewish refugees who left vast amounts of wealth and property behind in Arab nations (which Arab nations confiscated) in order to flee to their beloved Israel where they knew that they would receive a better life there instead of being a discriminated minority in Arab nations. Arab nations have the full capabilities of taking in Palestinian refugees and assimilating them into their nations but they refuse to do so (except Jordan). These refugees are simply used as pawns by their own brothers - the Arabs in order for this refugee problem to a thorn in Israel's side. Arab nations know that the world will look with disdain over Israel's supposed "maltreatment" of refugees. If Israel is being a little hard on the refugees, this is minimal compared to the centuries of brutality that the Jews suffered at the hands of Muslims. What are your thoughts on this organization: http://www.ict.org.il/ Lastly what are you thoughts to the second part of my previous post. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 10-20-2003 at 09:35 AM..

10-20-2003, 02:16 PM	#43 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The excerpt sounds pretty square to me, perhaps a little one sided, but truthful in just about every aspect. As far as the organization goes, I think it is a bunch of scared Jews who live in the reality of almost daily terrorists attacks. Anyone would be batty if that were the case. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-20-2003, 02:29 PM	#45 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Israel is the textbook definition of the bully mentality. Who would they fight? The vast majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with the attacks on Israel, yet they would be the ones victimized and radicalized by an armed conflict. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

10-20-2003, 02:46 PM	#46 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Israel needs terrorism so they can steal more land and then claim they are doing it for security reasons. If there were no suicide bombings, then Israel would just be a land theif.

10-20-2003, 09:23 PM	#49 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	So you deny that Israel is making illegal settlements? wow talk about denial.

10-21-2003, 06:50 AM	#51 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	What war did Israel fight since 1999? There are over 100 illegally seized settlements since that date.

10-21-2003, 02:26 PM	#54 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	The West Bank and Gaza has not been annexed, although many see that as Israel's ultimate goal. It doesn't technically belong to any state. It is simply occupied by Isreal. The brutality of this occupation, however, is a far from simple affair. SLM3

10-21-2003, 04:52 PM	#55 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	I thought the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be free from Israel rule and settlements. But it seems Israel doesnt care and since 1999( i picked that year cause i dont know how many settlements were illegally created before that) they made over 100 illegal settlements, kicking people out of homes, oftem with bulldozers, thus fueling the fires of terrorism.

10-21-2003, 05:37 PM	#57 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Cause the world recognises that they are Palastinian lands. If they were truly part of Israel, why to the people that live there consider themselves Palastinian, and vote for Palastinian Prime Ministers, and need passports to go into Israel. Doesnt sound like part of Israel to me. Why is Israel building in those lands declared illegal buy both the UN and the USA?