Do we really need the ACLU? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Liquor Dealer · 10-14-2003, 07:35 AM

What is your opinion of the ACLU? I think this is an organization that once filled a real need in our society but over the years has become nothing but a sounding board of the liberals who live way out on the fringe to bring ridiculously stupid lawsuits to clog up an already overburdened court system.

Conclamo Ludus · 10-14-2003, 07:48 AM

Although they get a lot of heat for taking high profile liberal causes, I think that there is a place for them. I don't know a lot about them, but I think that they take on tons of cases, and only the liberal extreme ones make the news. I could be wrong though. Some of the lawsuits definitely seem way out there. But it would seem that they're one of those groups that are fun to hate until you actually need your rights defended. I'm sure they've had a few cases that I would deem a worthwhile fight, but not the ones they get the most attention for.

absorbentishe · 10-14-2003, 07:57 AM

They tend to stick their noses in places that they shouldn't. We could do without.

Sledge · 10-14-2003, 08:21 AM

I concur with Conclamo Ludus, but I'm not very well-informed about the ACLU. Could someone fill me in as to why they're a nuisance?

Conclamo Ludus · 10-14-2003, 08:31 AM

Here is a link to their site. From reading the site they do certainly sound like a liberal mouthpiece. Tough job, but somebody has to do it. I'm sure there are similar conservative organizations that we don't here much about. Maybe they aren't as high profile. I don't know.

http://www.aclu.org/

chavos · 10-14-2003, 08:37 AM

wow... where to begin? The ACLU does not file that many lawsuits....the number they file versus the number heard overall by the courts makes your claim that it is a burden to the courts ridiculous.

Second...it is not a "Liberal" instituion. Some of our greatest allies are on the right, of the libertarian/classic conservative type, that believe in limiting government interferance in personal decisions and expressions. And yes, we have a lot of liberals too...who see the value of avoiding political controls over our basic rights.

Lastly...it's not up to you...this question is poorly framed. That enough people give money to an organization that it can survive as it has, even when it's used as a political canard (recall the accusations against dukakis that he was a member?), is a testimony that people want to use their free speech rights to support the causes of freedom and it's defense.

The_Dude · 10-14-2003, 08:43 AM

ABSOLUTELY.

think of where we would be w/o the ACLU

we would be studying creation and saying prayers in school, voting in white primaries etc..

if u think that the aclu is extreme liberal, then why would they initiate a lawsuit for jehowas witness ? (the salute the flag case)

Sledge · 10-14-2003, 08:43 AM

Wow. I really like them.

Wait, so which of their lawsuits are "ridiculously stupid"? At a cursory glance I don't see any that strike me as redundant or silly.

Redlemon · 10-14-2003, 08:48 AM

It's not like they are publically funded. If no one found them to be necessary, no one would donate money to them, and they would fold. Since there are enough people who do care about them, they exist. They aren't there just to be popular.

Dibbler · 10-14-2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
What is your opinion of the ACLU? I think this is an organization that once filled a real need in our society but over the years has become nothing but a sounding board of the liberals who live way out on the fringe to bring ridiculously stupid lawsuits to clog up an already overburdened court system.

I agree 100%...

mml · 10-14-2003, 10:29 AM

While quite often their lawsuits annoy me, just as often I am in complete agreement with them. That sounds about right to me. If I were always happy with them, I think something would be wrong. I also think that there has been a general move towards conservatism in this country, so their agenda has become more liberal. If the country moves to a more liberal stance, I am sure you will see a more conservative agenda.

I recently heard a representative of the ACLU say that their greatest fear is that the KKK or a Neo-Nazi group that is being denied their rights will come to the ACLU for assistance, and they will have no choice but to help. I found that refreshing and disturbing.

Harshaw · 10-14-2003, 10:35 AM

As someone who lives in Utah, we need the ACLU here. They are the only organization that keeps things in check.

I must admit, they do take on cases that even I think are a little crazy, but for the most part I think they are an importiant part of our checks and balances.

ubertuber · 10-14-2003, 12:27 PM

If the ACLU won every law suit and the country conformed to their ideals we would be living in a very different place. However, it is groups off to the extreme sides of things that maintain the healthy tension we enjoy in the middle of the spectrum. So although I don't always agree with the ACLU (and sometimes I do agree with them) I think we need them very much. They keep dialogue moving in this country.

Phaenx · 10-14-2003, 01:31 PM

Fucking. Joke.

Sledge · 10-14-2003, 02:03 PM

Can someone who thinks the ACLU is a Fucking Joke please be specific why? I still don't get why.

MSD · 10-14-2003, 02:18 PM

I think they sometimes go crazy over every little thing, but I think that if both sides don't try to overstep their bounds, someone would be able to. I'd rather have frivolous lawsuits by both conservatives and liberals than have either side be able to have their way.

maximusveritas · 10-14-2003, 02:35 PM

I suppose the powerful in this country would like it if the ACLU ceased to exist. But for common folk like myself, the ACLU is invaluable.

Nizzle · 10-14-2003, 06:59 PM

I find it amusing in a sad sort of way when conservatives bash the ACLU for being Liberal, and then throw the Constitution in everyone's face when it serves their purpose; such as to counter gun control or attempts to remove religious dogma from our schools.

Can we all agree that the Constitution is a wonderful thing and admit that someone needs to enforce it? Without someone to do so, we may find our ability to even have conversations like this erode.

Yes, the ACLU does help Liberal causes. It also helps Conservative ones. Free speech and the enforcement of our civil liberties is not a partisan issue.

Stare At The Sun · 10-16-2003, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
ABSOLUTELY.

think of where we would be w/o the ACLU

we would be studying creation and saying prayers in school, voting in white primaries etc..

if u think that the aclu is extreme liberal, then why would they initiate a lawsuit for jehowas witness ? (the salute the flag case)

Tru tru.

I am quite glad that they exist.

Nazggul · 10-16-2003, 08:36 AM

This poll is a bit flawed. The way it is written I would choose that it is necessary AND it is the voice of extreme liberals AND it is the source of nuisance lawsuits. It can be all these things.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-16-2003, 08:36 AM

The ACLU is a bunch of God Hating Chrito-Phobes, it goes beyond Seperation of Church and state for these people. They defend cop killers, they defend sex offenders and child rapists (Look at their high profile NAMBLA case is Mass.), They defend child pornography. They are your typical Liberals, they only fight for the rights that suit them, but if they politically or amorally disagree with you they will be the first to jump down your throats.

Sparhawk · 10-16-2003, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
The ACLU is a bunch of God Hating Chrito-Phobes, it goes beyond Seperation of Church and state for these people. They defend cop killers, they defend sex offenders and child rapists (Look at their high profile NAMBLA case is Mass.), They defend child pornography. They are your typical Liberals, they only fight for the rights that suit them, but if they politically or amorally disagree with you they will be the first to jump down your throats.

Most members of the ACLU embody Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

I personally think it is a noble calling.

wwcd101 · 10-16-2003, 10:49 AM

I think their role is important.

I frequently disagree with their approach. Too much "chicken little".

Thanks for listening.

Conclamo Ludus · 10-16-2003, 12:31 PM

I wonder if they would defend the rights of that hateful anti-gay Matthew Shepherd monument-making whacko Fred Phelps if the city tries to block him from putting the monument up?

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=30263

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-16-2003, 12:49 PM

No way they would because it is a monument by a Christian group with Christian writing and beliefs on it.

MuadDib · 10-16-2003, 02:19 PM

They would defend his right to say whatever he saw fit, but not to erect a monument in a public area expressing his hate.

Conclamo Ludus · 10-16-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MuadDib
They would defend his right to say whatever he saw fit, but not to erect a monument in a public area expressing his hate.

That's the problem. The law says that he is allowed to put up a monument for his "religion" because there is already a religious monument on the property. It wouldn't be "fair" for there to be one and not the other.

Would they defend him if he put it in his front yard?

filtherton · 10-16-2003, 03:28 PM

Why wouldn't they defend him? They've defended nazis and the klan, both arguably right wing grougs.
I think it is just plain assinine(to use the words of liquor dealer) to think that the aclu isn't valuable.

Conclamo Ludus · 10-16-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
Why wouldn't they defend him? They've defended nazis and the klan, both arguably right wing grougs.
I think it is just plain assinine(to use the words of liquor dealer) to think that the aclu isn't valuable.

I've heard this before. Maybe they would. I think they should have to if they are going to defend some of their other cases. Such as NAMBLA.

MuadDib · 10-16-2003, 06:33 PM

I think that they would more likely petition for the removal of the other monument(s).

chavos · 10-16-2003, 07:19 PM

frankly...look and see if the state CLU has taken a stand. Speculating on their stance isn't very profitable, no?

View Poll Results: ACLU - Good, Bad, or a Joke
It is necessary to protect our civil rights	31	59.62%
It is the voice of the extreme liberals	7	13.46%
It is a fuckin' joke	9	17.31%
It is nothing but the source of nuisance law suits	2	3.85%
It is the voice of freedom	3	5.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

10-14-2003, 07:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Do we really need the ACLU? What is your opinion of the ACLU? I think this is an organization that once filled a real need in our society but over the years has become nothing but a sounding board of the liberals who live way out on the fringe to bring ridiculously stupid lawsuits to clog up an already overburdened court system. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!! Last edited by Liquor Dealer; 10-14-2003 at 07:39 AM..

10-14-2003, 07:48 AM	#2 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	Although they get a lot of heat for taking high profile liberal causes, I think that there is a place for them. I don't know a lot about them, but I think that they take on tons of cases, and only the liberal extreme ones make the news. I could be wrong though. Some of the lawsuits definitely seem way out there. But it would seem that they're one of those groups that are fun to hate until you actually need your rights defended. I'm sure they've had a few cases that I would deem a worthwhile fight, but not the ones they get the most attention for. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

10-14-2003, 08:31 AM	#5 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	Here is a link to their site. From reading the site they do certainly sound like a liberal mouthpiece. Tough job, but somebody has to do it. I'm sure there are similar conservative organizations that we don't here much about. Maybe they aren't as high profile. I don't know. http://www.aclu.org/ __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

10-14-2003, 08:43 AM	#7 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	ABSOLUTELY. think of where we would be w/o the ACLU we would be studying creation and saying prayers in school, voting in white primaries etc.. if u think that the aclu is extreme liberal, then why would they initiate a lawsuit for jehowas witness ? (the salute the flag case) __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

10-14-2003, 07:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
absorbentishe Boy am I horny today Location: T O L E D O, Toledo!!	They tend to stick their noses in places that they shouldn't. We could do without.

10-14-2003, 08:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	I concur with Conclamo Ludus, but I'm not very well-informed about the ACLU. Could someone fill me in as to why they're a nuisance?

10-14-2003, 08:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	wow... where to begin? The ACLU does not file that many lawsuits....the number they file versus the number heard overall by the courts makes your claim that it is a burden to the courts ridiculous. Second...it is not a "Liberal" instituion. Some of our greatest allies are on the right, of the libertarian/classic conservative type, that believe in limiting government interferance in personal decisions and expressions. And yes, we have a lot of liberals too...who see the value of avoiding political controls over our basic rights. Lastly...it's not up to you...this question is poorly framed. That enough people give money to an organization that it can survive as it has, even when it's used as a political canard (recall the accusations against dukakis that he was a member?), is a testimony that people want to use their free speech rights to support the causes of freedom and it's defense.

10-14-2003, 08:43 AM	#8 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	Wow. I really like them. Wait, so which of their lawsuits are "ridiculously stupid"? At a cursory glance I don't see any that strike me as redundant or silly.

10-14-2003, 08:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	It's not like they are publically funded. If no one found them to be necessary, no one would donate money to them, and they would fold. Since there are enough people who do care about them, they exist. They aren't there just to be popular. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

10-14-2003, 10:29 AM	#11 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	While quite often their lawsuits annoy me, just as often I am in complete agreement with them. That sounds about right to me. If I were always happy with them, I think something would be wrong. I also think that there has been a general move towards conservatism in this country, so their agenda has become more liberal. If the country moves to a more liberal stance, I am sure you will see a more conservative agenda. I recently heard a representative of the ACLU say that their greatest fear is that the KKK or a Neo-Nazi group that is being denied their rights will come to the ACLU for assistance, and they will have no choice but to help. I found that refreshing and disturbing. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

10-14-2003, 10:35 AM	#12 (permalink)
Harshaw Is mad at you. Location: Bored in Sacramento	As someone who lives in Utah, we need the ACLU here. They are the only organization that keeps things in check. I must admit, they do take on cases that even I think are a little crazy, but for the most part I think they are an importiant part of our checks and balances. __________________ This too shall pass.

10-14-2003, 12:27 PM	#13 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	If the ACLU won every law suit and the country conformed to their ideals we would be living in a very different place. However, it is groups off to the extreme sides of things that maintain the healthy tension we enjoy in the middle of the spectrum. So although I don't always agree with the ACLU (and sometimes I do agree with them) I think we need them very much. They keep dialogue moving in this country. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

10-14-2003, 01:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Fucking. Joke. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

10-14-2003, 02:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	Can someone who thinks the ACLU is a Fucking Joke please be specific why? I still don't get why.

10-14-2003, 02:18 PM	#16 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I think they sometimes go crazy over every little thing, but I think that if both sides don't try to overstep their bounds, someone would be able to. I'd rather have frivolous lawsuits by both conservatives and liberals than have either side be able to have their way.

10-14-2003, 02:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I suppose the powerful in this country would like it if the ACLU ceased to exist. But for common folk like myself, the ACLU is invaluable.

10-14-2003, 06:59 PM	#18 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	I find it amusing in a sad sort of way when conservatives bash the ACLU for being Liberal, and then throw the Constitution in everyone's face when it serves their purpose; such as to counter gun control or attempts to remove religious dogma from our schools. Can we all agree that the Constitution is a wonderful thing and admit that someone needs to enforce it? Without someone to do so, we may find our ability to even have conversations like this erode. Yes, the ACLU does help Liberal causes. It also helps Conservative ones. Free speech and the enforcement of our civil liberties is not a partisan issue. __________________ Nizzle

10-16-2003, 08:36 AM	#20 (permalink)
Nazggul Psycho Location: San Francisco	This poll is a bit flawed. The way it is written I would choose that it is necessary AND it is the voice of extreme liberals AND it is the source of nuisance lawsuits. It can be all these things. __________________ "If something has to give then it always will." -- Editors

10-16-2003, 08:36 AM	#21 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The ACLU is a bunch of God Hating Chrito-Phobes, it goes beyond Seperation of Church and state for these people. They defend cop killers, they defend sex offenders and child rapists (Look at their high profile NAMBLA case is Mass.), They defend child pornography. They are your typical Liberals, they only fight for the rights that suit them, but if they politically or amorally disagree with you they will be the first to jump down your throats. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-16-2003, 10:49 AM	#23 (permalink)
wwcd101 Insane	I think their role is important. I frequently disagree with their approach. Too much "chicken little". Thanks for listening.

10-16-2003, 12:31 PM	#24 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I wonder if they would defend the rights of that hateful anti-gay Matthew Shepherd monument-making whacko Fred Phelps if the city tries to block him from putting the monument up? http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=30263 __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

10-16-2003, 12:49 PM	#25 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	No way they would because it is a monument by a Christian group with Christian writing and beliefs on it. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-16-2003, 02:19 PM	#26 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	They would defend his right to say whatever he saw fit, but not to erect a monument in a public area expressing his hate. __________________ "The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

10-16-2003, 03:28 PM	#28 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Why wouldn't they defend him? They've defended nazis and the klan, both arguably right wing grougs. I think it is just plain assinine(to use the words of liquor dealer) to think that the aclu isn't valuable.

10-16-2003, 06:33 PM	#30 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	I think that they would more likely petition for the removal of the other monument(s). __________________ "The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

10-16-2003, 07:19 PM	#31 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	frankly...look and see if the state CLU has taken a stand. Speculating on their stance isn't very profitable, no?