Patriot act: Reality vs what Micheal Moore says it is. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sixate · 10-09-2003, 09:01 PM

I have yet to know someone who has lost any rights because of the PATRIOT Act. My life, along with everyone I've ever known, hasn't changed or been touched at all. I'll bet that the 99% of the time it's criminals being caught and brought to justice. So, what's the problem here? Why are people so eager to protect criminals? There's a simple solution....... Stop doing illegal stuff if that's what you're worried about.

chavos · 10-09-2003, 09:30 PM

Just because you don't personally observe an effect does not mean it is non-existant. When trees fall in the forest, they still make sounds....

99%? Wow. We almost never get that kind of luck in any other kind of police work we do. This patriot act must have super-freaking powers. Seriously...that's a made up number, and it doesn't really have a place in reasoned debate.

By using it, you advance an ad hominem attack. Anyone who believes the Patriot act is overreaching is protecting criminals. That hinges on one thing. What does the Patriot act do? Does it lawfully help deter criminals, or does it deprive people of their rights? You're speculating that it does the former...but there's some pretty solid evidence presented that it does the latter.

Look...i'm all for aprehending criminals and terrorists. But i don't see why i have to trust the government to do that with out judicial oversight, and accountability to me through the press. And i don't see why people can't have lawyers when they face the judical system, or a military tribunal. etc...

Does that make me a person who wants to protect criminals? No.... Don't know why you thought you could say it did.

almostaugust · 10-09-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
Just because you don't personally observe an effect does not mean it is non-existant. When trees fall in the forest, they still make sounds....

99%? Wow. We almost never get that kind of luck in any other kind of police work we do. This patriot act must have super-freaking powers. Seriously...that's a made up number, and it doesn't really have a place in reasoned debate.

By using it, you advance an ad hominem attack. Anyone who believes the Patriot act is overreaching is protecting criminals. That hinges on one thing. What does the Patriot act do? Does it lawfully help deter criminals, or does it deprive people of their rights? You're speculating that it does the former...but there's some pretty solid evidence presented that it does the latter.

Look...i'm all for aprehending criminals and terrorists. But i don't see why i have to trust the government to do that with out judicial oversight, and accountability to me through the press. And i don't see why people can't have lawyers when they face the judical system, or a military tribunal. etc...

Does that make me a person who wants to protect criminals? No.... Don't know why you thought you could say it did.

I agree with these sentiments completely. Sadly, the socio/political mood of the country has got to the point where many people would angrily scream "Well leave the fucking country if you dont agree". Clearly there is something wrong.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-09-2003, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
I have yet to know someone who has lost any rights because of the PATRIOT Act. My life, along with everyone I've ever known, hasn't changed or been touched at all. I'll bet that the 99% of the time it's criminals being caught and brought to justice. So, what's the problem here? Why are people so eager to protect criminals? There's a simple solution....... Stop doing illegal stuff if that's what you're worried about.

So Sixate, you're all for the government having access to your personal records, tax records, credit card records, following you around, taping you having sex, and bugging your phone 24/7 to make sure you're not a criminal?

If not, then you draw the line somewhere. We're discussing where the line should be drawn. Your holier-than-thou attitude doesn't help the discussion at all.

Here's a life that has been affected by the war on terrorism. A year in jail, tortured, no charges filed on him.

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montr...C-FC7DD048F33A

chavos · 10-09-2003, 11:21 PM

uhh...HR, that's not from patriot. That's in syria. There's enough reasoning to be made against the act with out resorting to excess or hyperbole...

sixate · 10-10-2003, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
So Sixate, you're all for the government having access to your personal records, tax records, credit card records, following you around, taping you having sex, and bugging your phone 24/7 to make sure you're not a criminal?

That's exactly what I'm saying. I have nothing to hide and I'll bet I'd bore the shit outa some government officials if they did choose to do that. I'm all for anything that'll get more criminals behind bars.

Ustwo · 10-10-2003, 08:22 AM

While this thread has gotten silly, I don't think my sex life would bore anyone watching

HarmlessRabbit · 10-10-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
uhh...HR, that's not from patriot. That's in syria. There's enough reasoning to be made against the act with out resorting to excess or hyperbole...

I didn't say it was from the patriot act. But it was from the US government. People here are saying that the US government can do no wrong. Google for COINTELPRO and see if you like what you find.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-10-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
That's exactly what I'm saying. I have nothing to hide and I'll bet I'd bore the shit outa some government officials if they did choose to do that. I'm all for anything that'll get more criminals behind bars.

Ok. I can handle a consistent position, even if it's one I don't agree with. I'll be watching you on the board though, I've got your reply bookmarked.

Personally, I value freedom and privacy over prosecuting every single criminal. For example, using current technology it is theoretically possible to automatically catch and ticket every speeder, but I don't think that policy is something that most americans want.

filtherton · 10-10-2003, 10:15 PM

I think we should actually remove any mention of "illegal search and seizure" from the constitution. I mean, hello, if you're not breaking any laws, why would you care if the cops came into your house and just started watching you for no reason? I think everybody should have their own personal surveilance device. Something that the law would require you to wear. All it would do is provide the authorities with your location and a video feed of what you are currently doing. We should just get rid of the concept of privacy all together as it is only boon for criminal activity.

10-10-2003, 08:22 AM	#47 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	While this thread has gotten silly, I don't think my sex life would bore anyone watching __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-09-2003, 09:01 PM	#41 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	I have yet to know someone who has lost any rights because of the PATRIOT Act. My life, along with everyone I've ever known, hasn't changed or been touched at all. I'll bet that the 99% of the time it's criminals being caught and brought to justice. So, what's the problem here? Why are people so eager to protect criminals? There's a simple solution....... Stop doing illegal stuff if that's what you're worried about.

10-09-2003, 09:30 PM	#42 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Just because you don't personally observe an effect does not mean it is non-existant. When trees fall in the forest, they still make sounds.... 99%? Wow. We almost never get that kind of luck in any other kind of police work we do. This patriot act must have super-freaking powers. Seriously...that's a made up number, and it doesn't really have a place in reasoned debate. By using it, you advance an ad hominem attack. Anyone who believes the Patriot act is overreaching is protecting criminals. That hinges on one thing. What does the Patriot act do? Does it lawfully help deter criminals, or does it deprive people of their rights? You're speculating that it does the former...but there's some pretty solid evidence presented that it does the latter. Look...i'm all for aprehending criminals and terrorists. But i don't see why i have to trust the government to do that with out judicial oversight, and accountability to me through the press. And i don't see why people can't have lawyers when they face the judical system, or a military tribunal. etc... Does that make me a person who wants to protect criminals? No.... Don't know why you thought you could say it did.

10-09-2003, 11:21 PM	#45 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	uhh...HR, that's not from patriot. That's in syria. There's enough reasoning to be made against the act with out resorting to excess or hyperbole...

10-10-2003, 10:15 PM	#50 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think we should actually remove any mention of "illegal search and seizure" from the constitution. I mean, hello, if you're not breaking any laws, why would you care if the cops came into your house and just started watching you for no reason? I think everybody should have their own personal surveilance device. Something that the law would require you to wear. All it would do is provide the authorities with your location and a video feed of what you are currently doing. We should just get rid of the concept of privacy all together as it is only boon for criminal activity.