Racial double standard? of course! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JBX · 10-05-2003, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Racial double standard? of course!
Armstrong Williams

October 2, 2003

In America in 2003, black people can talk openly about race. They can admit to identifying with black cultural icons. They can admit to having black pride. They can even drop the N-bomb. White corporate America cannot. The result is a racial double standard that threatens our ability to talk openly about the very serious topic of race relations.

Case in point: Conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh recently resigned from his job on the ESPN National Football League pre-game show after making racially charged comments about Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb. "The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well," said Limbaugh. "There is little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

If Limbaugh had been blessed with dark skin like me, there is little doubt that he would still be working for ESPN. In fact, he probably would have been given a raise for adding kick to ESPN's floundering pre-game show. But Limbaugh is white. So he was forced out for playing the race card.

Of course, Limbaugh is no stranger to hyperbole. Exaggeration and paranoid finger wagging are the reasons for the better part of his success as a radio personality. And that is why he was hired - to shock people into paying attention.

Still, one has to wonder, what precisely did Limbaugh insinuate that was so wrong? That the NFL has ethnic double standards? Of course it does! This past year the NFL instituted a new policy that will enact sanctions against teams that fail to interview minorities for vacant coaching positions. Critics of the policy raised very legitimate concerns of whether trotting out black coaching candidates for token interviews might do more harm than good. After all, you can force an owner to interview a black coach, but you can't force him to hire one. Would the repeated rejection of certain black candidates actually do harm to their reputations?

These are serious questions, and ones that the NFL never seriously addressed. Instead, they plowed forward with the policy for a very simple reason: We - NFL policymakers, fans and media - want black athletes and coaches to have equal opportunity. At this late date, we realize that black athletes and coaches have traditionally been denied certain opportunities. It was easy for white coaches to succeed when they had other white coaches from whom they could learn and white owners willing to give them a chance. Society did not offer black coaches this same opportunity.

So, is it racist to mandate that black coaches at least get interviewed? Of course. It seeks to assuage the problem of racism in the past by practicing reverse-racial preferences now. These sorts of preferences define all the members of a fixed group by skin color. By extension, the policy implicitly accepts the notion of creditor and debtor race. Nowhere does the U.S. Constitution make allowances for such classifications. Still we support the policy. We want it to succeed.

Many of us feel the same way toward black quarterbacks. Radio talk show host Russ Parr recently told me he roots for Michael Vick, not because he has any roots in Atlanta, but "because Vick is black." What Parr knows, and what anyone who gives the matter any thought realizes, is that until recently, few black athletes were given an opportunity to play quarterback. Many suffered because coaches and owners assumed that they lacked teamwork skills and were not intelligent enough for the position.

For decades white owners and coaches were incapable of thinking outside of their own limited cultural experience. This even holds true with regard to raw athletic ability. Black quarterbacks that did not fit the mold of a traditional pocket passer were squeezed into other positions. (A decade ago, Michael Vick would have likely been forced to play cornerback, receiver or running back. In all likelihood his career would have been cut short by injury. This is what black athletes endured until very recently.)

We - the media, owners and members of society - want that to change. We get particularly excited when we think a black athlete is opening new doors. Donovan McNabb is the perfect example. Other quarterbacks have better numbers, but McNabb comes up big in big games. For his career he has a nearly 2-to-1 ratio of touchdowns to interceptions. He has been to three straight Pro Bowls and two consecutive NFC championship games. Plainly, he's a good quarterback. And he's black. For these two reasons we want him to succeed.

Black people have no problem admitting this. Callers during my recent appearance on the Russ Parr radio show talked openly about how they want blacks to succeed in areas where they were traditionally denied equal opportunity. Get it? They want Donovan McNabb to succeed because he's black. Most of society feels the same way. But if a white guy brings up this racial double standard he will be labeled a "racist" and fired.

It seems ironic - and more to the point, harmful - that we have become so conscious of past racism, that we can no longer talk openly about it, or even raise the issue to consciousness for genuine examination. That helps no one.

©2003 Tribune Media Services

HarmlessRabbit · 10-05-2003, 07:46 AM

Speaking for myself, in this era of the "new" politics board, I'm no longer responding to posts that just offer up the text of a story with no opinion on the part of the poster, or posts that just say "what do you think about xxx?" without offering the opinion of the poster.

What do you think about this story, JBX? Do you agree or disagree with the author?

The_Dude · 10-05-2003, 09:05 AM

I think it's a double standard that black people get offended when a non-black uses the n-word, but it's ok for them to use it.

Anyway, i think that race is giving more importance in this place in time than it should.

Phaenx · 10-05-2003, 10:47 AM

I can drop the C-bomb. Then again noone cares when they're called a cracker anyhow.

I can agree with this guy, what concerns me is the thought that black people are more accepting then whites are, and once we have people like the previously mentioned handing out jobs to underqualified (because you gain points for being x race), whose to say we won't have the same problem they did?

HarmlessRabbit · 10-05-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I can agree with this guy, what concerns me is the thought that black people are more accepting then whites are, and once we have people like the previously mentioned handing out jobs to underqualified (because you gain points for being x race), whose to say we won't have the same problem they did?

I think it's important to step away from the drama and keep this in context.

<li>A conservative talk show host was hired as a football host (probably because it would be controversial and hike up the ratings, which in fact it did).</li>

<li>He then says that McNabb, who is in a slump but certainly no slacker, is getting too much credit for the performance of the team, and that the defense carried the team.</li>

<li>In Philadelphia's first game this year, the defense gave up 17 points (all scores by tampa bay, no turnover scoring). In the second game, they gave up 24 (leaving out one interception return on the offense at the end of the game). In their last game (after the Limbaugh comments, the defense gave up 13 and the offense scored 23. And the defense is carrying the team????!!!!?????</li>

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teamsched?team=phi

NFL football is about as cross-culture as you can get in america. Given that Limbaugh just insulted a huge portion of the television fan base, what should they have done? Let him keep his job?

Limbaugh should have known better int he first place; his claim was based on evidence that wasn't there; and while he might get away with that on his show, you have to be more sensitive with a broad audience. To me, Limbaugh wasn't fired for being racist, he was fired for being dumb. I don't think there is any deeper moral message here.

chavos · 10-05-2003, 11:48 AM

IMO the fatal mistake rush made was being stupid, not racist. HRabbit's post says why...

Lebell · 10-05-2003, 01:41 PM

JBX,

It is better when posting a story to include some of your own ideas.

As to the story, it is clear that there is a double standard regarding race in America, even to most liberal thinkers.

In speech, political organizations, racial quotas, it is everywhere.

Some people feel that it is justified because minorities suffered so long, but I was always told that two wrongs don't make a right, so I don't believe this is beneficial to anyone, especially when those who do not need or deserve favoritism recieve it at the expense of others.

The best solution to racism, IMO, is to be a color blind society.

And I don't know enough about Limbaugh or McNabb to know if what Rush said is true, but if it is (and I can believe it in today's world), then we shouldn't shoot the messenger, but we should assail any system that encourages quotas at the expense of the truly talented.

JBX · 10-05-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Speaking for myself, in this era of the "new" politics board, I'm no longer responding to posts that just offer up the text of a story with no opinion on the part of the poster, or posts that just say "what do you think about xxx?" without offering the opinion of the poster.

What do you think about this story, JBX? Do you agree or disagree with the author?

Sorry about that, I posted so the quote looked right and was going to post underneath it. I always comment on my own posts.

Now, I do agree with Mr. Williams. I've seen for some time members of minority groups saying things that if a white guy said the exact same thing there would be riots in the streets.

Now for Rush's statement. I don't even follow football and I didn't know who McNabb was until the story hit, but I did know that it was unusual to have a black quarterback do to statements I've picked up on over the years in general conversation. Rush stated what I think was the obvious. He should of not backed down he has the smarts to back up his statement and put a chink in the P.C. bullshit.

Xell101 · 10-05-2003, 05:38 PM

Perversion of culture seems to be spreading like cancer. No longer is the first thing thought when something controversial is heard, "Is it true, does it have any validity, does the speaker think it is true, does he have backing for it?" It is now to the effect of, "Did it offend anyone? If someone is offended by it, it is offensive, therefore all involved should be punished! No one has the right to offend the unwilling! Bwa!!!!!!"

BigGov · 10-05-2003, 07:11 PM

Armstrong Williams is completely right, and Rush is right on many points too.

I've been an Eagles fan for many years, I've followed them as close as any die-hard fan does. The fact about the Eagles for the past few years is that the defense HAS carried the team. In the past few years, look at the number of Pro Bowl quality defensive players that have played for the Eagles: Brian Dawkins, Blaine Bishop, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Al Harris, Hugh Douglas, Jerimiah Trotter, Corey Simon, Hollis Thomas, and Nate Wayne. Meanwhile, on the offense, there's Donovan and a few suspect Pro Bowl linemen. Donovan has never carried the Eagles, he's only carried the Eagles offense. Without those defensive players the Eagles don't even make the playoffs, hell, they don't even get 8 wins. In fact, watch Eagles games from the past two years. You watch the Eagles defense and it's just pure mayhem. At certain points you can swear you see certain guys running away for their dear lives, on top of that, you're almost laughing your ass off watching plays where Jim Johnson blitz's, like one for example where his two starting Pro Bowl cornerbacks blitz at the same time off both corners, the QB sees one, turns around to run, and gets nailed by other. Then, after the 4 and out, you watch Brian Mitchell have a great return. Then you watch McNabb and the offense come out, and struggle. In fact, the offense struggles against almost every defense in the league. Passes are off, guys are out of position, it's just horrible to watch, almost painful.

So, Rush was half right. Now I dare anyone to find evidence of a major network admitting that. Ain't gonna happen.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-05-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xell101
Perversion of culture seems to be spreading like cancer. No longer is the first thing thought when something controversial is heard, "Is it true, does it have any validity, does the speaker think it is true, does he have backing for it?" It is now to the effect of, "Did it offend anyone? If someone is offended by it, it is offensive, therefore all involved should be punished! No one has the right to offend the unwilling! Bwa!!!!!!"

It's all context. Construction workers say things every day that woudl get Bush impeached if he said them. Rush says stuff on his show every day that isn't appropriate for an nfl pregame show.

If anything, I think the world is LESS sensitive these days compared to the touchy-feely 70's, so I can't agree with your "spreading like cancer" statement. Here in CA we have a candidate for governor that (rightly or wrongly) is accused of groping many women and saying that he admired hitler, and there really isn't that much of an uproar about it.

I really don't know why the entertainment companies keep trying to mix politics and football. Dennis Miller bombed, and now Rush did too. What next, Henry Kissinger doing color commentary on the field?

Phaenx · 10-05-2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
I think it's important to step away from the drama and keep this in context.

<li>A conservative talk show host was hired as a football host (probably because it would be controversial and hike up the ratings, which in fact it did).</li>

<li>He then says that McNabb, who is in a slump but certainly no slacker, is getting too much credit for the performance of the team, and that the defense carried the team.</li>

<li>In Philadelphia's first game this year, the defense gave up 17 points (all scores by tampa bay, no turnover scoring). In the second game, they gave up 24 (leaving out one interception return on the offense at the end of the game). In their last game (after the Limbaugh comments, the defense gave up 13 and the offense scored 23. And the defense is carrying the team????!!!!?????</li>

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teamsched?team=phi

NFL football is about as cross-culture as you can get in america. Given that Limbaugh just insulted a huge portion of the television fan base, what should they have done? Let him keep his job?

Limbaugh should have known better int he first place; his claim was based on evidence that wasn't there; and while he might get away with that on his show, you have to be more sensitive with a broad audience. To me, Limbaugh wasn't fired for being racist, he was fired for being dumb. I don't think there is any deeper moral message here.

Just an observation of mine, Limbaugh should have indeed known better then to say that. I'm sure he did as well.

That's not my point though. I am dissapointed with the way civil rights in regards to race has gone recently. It's been from equality to superiority in my opinion, and maybe I'm wrong but noone seems willing to admit it in fear of being called a racist or a biggot.

I'm all for equality but it seems odd to me that a white male can't bring up a racial topic without being called a racist.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-05-2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I'm all for equality but it seems odd to me that a white male can't bring up a racial topic without being called a racist.

I agree that society is sometimes oversensitive, but this wasn't just a white male, it was a famous, controversial, political talk show host.

And I agree with you, I wonder how much of Limbaugh's stunt was planned. This has to be helping his ratings massively.

chavos · 10-05-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

"Is it true, does it have any validity, does the speaker think it is true, does he have backing for it?"

Exactly. It wasn't demonstrably true, it wasn't a statement he was qualified to make, and he probably knew better than to say it. Baiting for the race card is different than making comments with racial implications. And crediting promotion of a good player on his race is baiting, plain and simple becuase of it's disregard for the truth.

Killconey · 10-05-2003, 11:08 PM

I'd like to address the affirmative action in regards to coaches interviews. While I can definitely see where requiring interviews with black coaches may seem like a good idea at the time to expand racial boundaries, it suffers from the same flaw that all other affirmative action cases do: it assumes minorities aren't good enough to get the position on their own.

Seriously, why would you need to give a person extra credit if you had faith in his ability to pass the test without it? This is extremely racist, yet no one seems to notice because its all done to eliminate racism. I am firmly against all forms of affirmative action for that reason. The best person should get the job. Period. I have met several black people and hispanic people and asians who could all steal jobs away from me because of their abilities, not because of their skin color, and I have faith that minorities could very easily succeed without affirmative action.

onetime2 · 10-06-2003, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
I think it's important to step away from the drama and keep this in context.

<li>A conservative talk show host was hired as a football host (probably because it would be controversial and hike up the ratings, which in fact it did).</li>

<li>He then says that McNabb, who is in a slump but certainly no slacker, is getting too much credit for the performance of the team, and that the defense carried the team.</li>

<li>In Philadelphia's first game this year, the defense gave up 17 points (all scores by tampa bay, no turnover scoring). In the second game, they gave up 24 (leaving out one interception return on the offense at the end of the game). In their last game (after the Limbaugh comments, the defense gave up 13 and the offense scored 23. And the defense is carrying the team????!!!!?????</li>

The Eagles offense is ranked 28th in the league. Its Defense is 15th. The total points allowed in games has nothing to do with the argument.

While I agree that Rush should have known better, the statement he made is absolutely spot on in regards to defense carrying the team.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-06-2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killconey
Seriously, why would you need to give a person extra credit if you had faith in his ability to pass the test without it? This is extremely racist, yet no one seems to notice because its all done to eliminate racism. I am firmly against all forms of affirmative action for that reason. The best person should get the job. Period. I have met several black people and hispanic people and asians who could all steal jobs away from me because of their abilities, not because of their skin color, and I have faith that minorities could very easily succeed without affirmative action.

This idea of a "color blind" society is some interesting propoganda put forth by the conservative faction. Affirmative Action was put in place to address real, actual discrimination by real, actual people. Discrimination was rampant across America. Blacks were regularly prevented from voting, had to use separate sections of the bus, separate water fountains, etc. Have we forgotten all this so soon?

While I think there is lots of room to argue one way or another about where to draw the line with affirmative action and quotas, the whole concept that affirmative action is "racism" and therefore we shouldn't do it is a grammatical trick along the lines of "partial birth abortion" and distracts from the issue at hand.

Minorities do not have an equal opportunity in the united states. For example, the federal sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine, used by more minorities, are still much harsher than those for regular cocaine, used by more whites. I have yet to hear a conservative call out for a correction to this terrible racist problem.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-06-2003, 08:08 PM

Why does it matter who smokes what? You break the law and get caught you get your ass hauled in. Also affirmative action is a joke and is reverse racism. I am sure there are many white kids in inner cities or that are poor that get the short end of the stick when it comes to education why should minorities get special treatment?

Zeld2.0 · 10-06-2003, 08:16 PM

Problem is Mojo, that argument of white kids in there isn't true when one realizes the overwhelming majority are pretty much minorities.

As for affirmative action - its a must if done right. Now obviously there are many cases where its done right - and where its not done right as well.

Yes there IS still rampant racism in the world - if there was no such a thing as affirmative action or the like, then chances are, if a white employer say had a choice between a black and a white equally skilled or closely skilled, chances are, theres going to be a hiring of a white man. Its those marginal cases that get the need of a little changing around - the problems are those with overwhelming differences in skills where the bad side comes in IMO.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-06-2003, 09:22 PM

I'm not opposed to Affirmative Action when people who are truly qualified get the job. But when you hire underqualified people to fill a quota especially in public service jobs, there is a big fucking problem.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-06-2003, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I'm not opposed to Affirmative Action when people who are truly qualified get the job. But when you hire underqualified people to fill a quota especially in public service jobs, there is a big fucking problem.

Well then, it's a good thing quotas were banned in the 1964 and 1991 Civil Rights Act, and recently upheld as being banned in the University of Michigan Admissions policy decision.

The "white guy who lost his job due to a quota" is just as mythical as the "welfare mom with a brand-new cadillac."

guthmund · 10-06-2003, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Well then, it's a good thing quotas were banned in the 1964 and 1991 Civil Rights Act, and recently upheld as being banned in the University of Michigan Admissions policy decision.

On paper quotas may be illegal, but do you really think that quotas aren't being filled?

I don't think that white folks are getting pushed out of jobs, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't some sort of pressure to fill job openings with minorities. Especially in high profile coaching jobs in the NFL, where the P.R. people can trot out minority coaching candidates to show the "Racially-sensitive" public that corporations can be good guys too.

I don't think you're going to change the establishment overnight, nor do I think that you're going to legislate "equality." I think that has time passes and the older generation gives way to the new, that there's going to be a positive shift in race relations.

Who knows? Maybe someday we can shift our focus to what's really important about somebody, not the color of their skin, but rather how much money they make?

Xell101 · 10-07-2003, 11:14 AM

Affirmitive Action: It is fundamentally racist, therefore it is wrong. In this case there are no such circumstance which would warrant the usage of racist policy in this manner, therefore it lacks suffecient reason for existing. I view it is as bad.

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Well then, it's a good thing quotas were banned in the 1964 and 1991 Civil Rights Act, and recently upheld as being banned in the University of Michigan Admissions policy decision.

The "white guy who lost his job due to a quota" is just as mythical as the "welfare mom with a brand-new cadillac."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quota

Toss the word variable in before that and you have precisely what AA does to businesses.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I'm not opposed to Affirmative action when people who are truly qualified get the job.

Why not hire the best available? Mediocrity blows, AA is promoting mediocrity.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-07-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xell101
Affirmitive Action: It is fundamentally racist, therefore it is wrong. In this case there are no such circumstance which would warrant the usage of racist policy in this manner, therefore it lacks suffecient reason for existing. I view it is as bad.

I am so tired of these grammatical games.

Making rules that forbid affirmative action is also racist. ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH RACE IS RACIST. So to throw around that [foo] is racist, and therefore shouldn't be done, is a ridculous, empty argument.

Killconey · 10-08-2003, 12:20 AM

Wow, I leave for a couple days and suddenly I'm playing grammatical games. HarmlessRabbit, I respect your opinions and commend your fight for equality in our world. But please realize that when I talk about a "color-blind" society or when I talk about eliminating Affirmative Action, it is a political opinion that I have. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that their arguments aren't solidly based and that their intentions aren't pure.

Besides, have you ever considered that things have changed since Affirmative Action was put in place? Maybe its outlived its prime like the Comic Book Code.

Xell101 · 10-08-2003, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
I am so tired of these grammatical games.

Making rules that forbid affirmative action is also racist.

Firstly a lot of this stuff is directly involved with inerpretations. Also, a law forbidding AA would not be racist, it is not a race based policy, it's telling you not to be racist. If 'they' want only black people/white people/people with funky hats/etc. then so be it, it is their business, just don't force anyone to do it.

Willy · 10-08-2003, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
The Eagles offense is ranked 28th in the league. Its Defense is 15th. The total points allowed in games has nothing to do with the argument.

While I agree that Rush should have known better, the statement he made is absolutely spot on in regards to defense carrying the team.

Yup.

McNabb IS overrated. Whether or not that's because he's black is open for debate.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-08-2003, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killconey
Wow, I leave for a couple days and suddenly I'm playing grammatical games. HarmlessRabbit, I respect your opinions and commend your fight for equality in our world. But please realize that when I talk about a "color-blind" society or when I talk about eliminating Affirmative Action, it is a political opinion that I have. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that their arguments aren't solidly based and that their intentions aren't pure.

Besides, have you ever considered that things have changed since Affirmative Action was put in place? Maybe its outlived its prime like the Comic Book Code.

I think the idea that AA has outlived its usefullness is entirely different than the idea that society should be "color-blind" and that having ANY laws regarding race is "racist". I think the "outlived" discussion is an interesting one and maybe a good topic for another thread!

This "color-blind" argument was used a lot here in California regarding prop 54, a conservative-backed proposition that would have starved race-based social programs by forbidding them from collecting the data they need to do their jobs. Luckily, voters saw through it and soundly defeated it.

Check out this google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...=Google+Search

In my opinion, as I said, the term "color-blind" is an attack on grammar that conservates are trying to use to frame the debate to their advantage, just like the term "partial-birth abortion".

If you accidentally picked up the term yourself by reading conservative articles, or if you coincidentally were using it before it was co-opted by conservatives, I apologize.

Killconey · 10-08-2003, 11:16 PM

No offense taken. Colorblind or no, I simply don't bother to distinguish race with the people I meet. Its just the way I am, so sometimes I have a difficult time comprehending why other people can be so prejudiced. Mayhaps a new thread will come out of this someday.

10-05-2003, 09:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	I think it's a double standard that black people get offended when a non-black uses the n-word, but it's ok for them to use it. Anyway, i think that race is giving more importance in this place in time than it should. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

10-05-2003, 10:47 AM	#4 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I can drop the C-bomb. Then again noone cares when they're called a cracker anyhow. I can agree with this guy, what concerns me is the thought that black people are more accepting then whites are, and once we have people like the previously mentioned handing out jobs to underqualified (because you gain points for being x race), whose to say we won't have the same problem they did? __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

10-05-2003, 01:41 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	JBX, It is better when posting a story to include some of your own ideas. As to the story, it is clear that there is a double standard regarding race in America, even to most liberal thinkers. In speech, political organizations, racial quotas, it is everywhere. Some people feel that it is justified because minorities suffered so long, but I was always told that two wrongs don't make a right, so I don't believe this is beneficial to anyone, especially when those who do not need or deserve favoritism recieve it at the expense of others. The best solution to racism, IMO, is to be a color blind society. And I don't know enough about Limbaugh or McNabb to know if what Rush said is true, but if it is (and I can believe it in today's world), then we shouldn't shoot the messenger, but we should assail any system that encourages quotas at the expense of the truly talented. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 10-05-2003 at 01:49 PM..

10-05-2003, 07:11 PM	#10 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	Armstrong Williams is completely right, and Rush is right on many points too. I've been an Eagles fan for many years, I've followed them as close as any die-hard fan does. The fact about the Eagles for the past few years is that the defense HAS carried the team. In the past few years, look at the number of Pro Bowl quality defensive players that have played for the Eagles: Brian Dawkins, Blaine Bishop, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Al Harris, Hugh Douglas, Jerimiah Trotter, Corey Simon, Hollis Thomas, and Nate Wayne. Meanwhile, on the offense, there's Donovan and a few suspect Pro Bowl linemen. Donovan has never carried the Eagles, he's only carried the Eagles offense. Without those defensive players the Eagles don't even make the playoffs, hell, they don't even get 8 wins. In fact, watch Eagles games from the past two years. You watch the Eagles defense and it's just pure mayhem. At certain points you can swear you see certain guys running away for their dear lives, on top of that, you're almost laughing your ass off watching plays where Jim Johnson blitz's, like one for example where his two starting Pro Bowl cornerbacks blitz at the same time off both corners, the QB sees one, turns around to run, and gets nailed by other. Then, after the 4 and out, you watch Brian Mitchell have a great return. Then you watch McNabb and the offense come out, and struggle. In fact, the offense struggles against almost every defense in the league. Passes are off, guys are out of position, it's just horrible to watch, almost painful. So, Rush was half right. Now I dare anyone to find evidence of a major network admitting that. Ain't gonna happen. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

10-05-2003, 11:08 PM	#15 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	I'd like to address the affirmative action in regards to coaches interviews. While I can definitely see where requiring interviews with black coaches may seem like a good idea at the time to expand racial boundaries, it suffers from the same flaw that all other affirmative action cases do: it assumes minorities aren't good enough to get the position on their own. Seriously, why would you need to give a person extra credit if you had faith in his ability to pass the test without it? This is extremely racist, yet no one seems to notice because its all done to eliminate racism. I am firmly against all forms of affirmative action for that reason. The best person should get the job. Period. I have met several black people and hispanic people and asians who could all steal jobs away from me because of their abilities, not because of their skin color, and I have faith that minorities could very easily succeed without affirmative action. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-05-2003, 07:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
HarmlessRabbit Junkie Location: San Jose, CA	Speaking for myself, in this era of the "new" politics board, I'm no longer responding to posts that just offer up the text of a story with no opinion on the part of the poster, or posts that just say "what do you think about xxx?" without offering the opinion of the poster. What do you think about this story, JBX? Do you agree or disagree with the author?

10-05-2003, 11:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	IMO the fatal mistake rush made was being stupid, not racist. HRabbit's post says why...

10-05-2003, 05:38 PM	#9 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	Perversion of culture seems to be spreading like cancer. No longer is the first thing thought when something controversial is heard, "Is it true, does it have any validity, does the speaker think it is true, does he have backing for it?" It is now to the effect of, "Did it offend anyone? If someone is offended by it, it is offensive, therefore all involved should be punished! No one has the right to offend the unwilling! Bwa!!!!!!"

10-06-2003, 08:08 PM	#18 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Why does it matter who smokes what? You break the law and get caught you get your ass hauled in. Also affirmative action is a joke and is reverse racism. I am sure there are many white kids in inner cities or that are poor that get the short end of the stick when it comes to education why should minorities get special treatment? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-06-2003, 08:16 PM	#19 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Problem is Mojo, that argument of white kids in there isn't true when one realizes the overwhelming majority are pretty much minorities. As for affirmative action - its a must if done right. Now obviously there are many cases where its done right - and where its not done right as well. Yes there IS still rampant racism in the world - if there was no such a thing as affirmative action or the like, then chances are, if a white employer say had a choice between a black and a white equally skilled or closely skilled, chances are, theres going to be a hiring of a white man. Its those marginal cases that get the need of a little changing around - the problems are those with overwhelming differences in skills where the bad side comes in IMO.

10-06-2003, 09:22 PM	#20 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I'm not opposed to Affirmative Action when people who are truly qualified get the job. But when you hire underqualified people to fill a quota especially in public service jobs, there is a big fucking problem. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-08-2003, 12:20 AM	#25 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	Wow, I leave for a couple days and suddenly I'm playing grammatical games. HarmlessRabbit, I respect your opinions and commend your fight for equality in our world. But please realize that when I talk about a "color-blind" society or when I talk about eliminating Affirmative Action, it is a political opinion that I have. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that their arguments aren't solidly based and that their intentions aren't pure. Besides, have you ever considered that things have changed since Affirmative Action was put in place? Maybe its outlived its prime like the Comic Book Code. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-08-2003, 11:16 PM	#29 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	No offense taken. Colorblind or no, I simply don't bother to distinguish race with the people I meet. Its just the way I am, so sometimes I have a difficult time comprehending why other people can be so prejudiced. Mayhaps a new thread will come out of this someday. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.