Those things dropping all around you are shoes. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ctembreull · 10-01-2003, 09:49 PM

Y'know, this just hasn't been a good news cycle for conservatives.

Intimigate:
Rather a catchy title, that, though the whole "-gate" scandal naming convention is rather played at this point. Eighty percent of Americans polled today consider the treasonous - and it is treasonous - outing of an American intelligence official to be a "serious" matter. Nearly seventy percent said that a special prosecutor should be appointed, rather than see the Justice Department involved. More information at the Left Coaster (link). Furthermore, embarrassing quotes from prominent Republicans dating back to the Clinton years have surfaced regarding the appropriateness of the Justice Department investigating the White House. An example from John Ashcroft his own self can be found at Eschaton (link). Meanwhile, conservative pundits are parsing, spinning, and generally sounding like Democrats did in 1997. Examples are everywhere.

Rush Limbaugh:
Rush, after making a racially-charged (if not outright racially hostile) comment on ESPN's NFL Sunday show, according to the network (link) . Meanwhile, Drudge has posted that the rather disreputable National Enquirer is going to print with a story claiming that Rush is a drug addict (link). I don't have much confidence in this one, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling, to say the least. This story is beginning to be noticed by the mainstream media as well.

Arnold Schwarzenegger:
This actually isn't "new" news - many of these allegations have been around for years upon years. But the Los Angeles Times is reporting (link) (registration required - free) that as many as six women have come forward with stories claiming that the Austrian movie-star-turned-gubernatorial-wannabe is a serial groper, having groped and fondled several women on numerous occasions and in diverse situations. It remains to be seen what effect this will have on the California recall, where polls have shown Schwarzenegger with a commanding lead in the race to replace Gray Davis.

Summary:
This has been a nightmare day for conservatives. It's quite apparent that many of these stories are very similar in tenor and tone to the stories that hounded Bill Clinton during his second term. The emergence of these and similar memes, though, may in fact be why so many influential conservative pundits and columnists have lately noticed - quite out of the blue - that vitriol has replaced reasoned discourse here in America. Many of these same commentators were leading the charge against Clinton during the Whitewater scandal and its successors - but now, all of a sudden that a Republican is feeling some heat from a revitalized Democratic congressional caucus and a formerly prostrate national media, now these commentators want to have everyone play nice again. Good idea, won't happen. The other shoe - shoes, actually - is dropping and the Bush administration is directly in gravity's path. How this plays out, with a national election a year away and the administration's credibility and popularity already at an all-time low, is anyone's guess.

seretogis · 10-01-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ctembreull
Rush Limbaugh:
This story is beginning to be noticed by the mainstream media as well.

This is utter nonsense, nothing but whiney liberals throwing names around.

Quote:

Arnold Schwarzenegger:

Now this is interesting. What wonderful timing, hmm? According to the story I read, "None of the six women who gave their accounts to the Times filed any legal action against him." Also, four of them wanted to remain un-identified. If these accusations were being made to anyone but Schwarzenegger, they would never be reported.

Quote:

Schwarzenegger's campaign spokesman, Sean Walsh, said the candidate has not engaged in improper conduct toward women either on the set or off. He said such allegations are part of an escalating political attack on Schwarzenegger as the recall election draws near.

"We believe Democrats and others are using this to try to hurt Arnold Schwarzenegger's campaign," Walsh said. "We believe that this is coming so close before the election, something that discourages good, hard-working, decent people from running for office."

ctembreull · 10-01-2003, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
This is utter nonsense, nothing but whiney liberals throwing names around.

I don't know. I didn't hear the original quote, but I read it later - in its entirety, with context - and I could certainly see the undertones. Sometimes it's not what's said, but what's left unsaid, and Limbaugh certainly left the impression that this was a racially motivated statement. Certainly, McNabb took it that way, and he's not alone. Sports commentators around the country have weighed in on this issue, as have fans - and they have overwhelmingly agreed that Limbaugh was certainly factually wrong, and most likely malicious in his statement. It ain't just liberals, no matter how much anyone wants to paint it that way.

Quote:

Now this is interesting. What wonderful timing, hmm? According to the story I read, "None of the six women who gave their accounts to the Times filed any legal action against him." Also, four of them wanted to remain un-identified. If these accusations were being made to anyone but Schwarzenegger, they would never be reported.

I'm not disagreeing with that statement. Were it anyone but Schwarzo, this would be a non-story. But Schwarzenegger is a different case altogether: he's running for public office, in an era where conservatives have made it clear that character and integrity matter.. This issue calls Schwarzenegger's character and integrity into question. Some of these stories have been public knowledge for years - it's not as if they were cropping up all of a sudden and out of the clear blue.

Regarding the "no charges filed" bit, that's unsurprising. Some of these folks were functionaries in the movie industry, where if you cause trouble for an executive or for a star, your career ends right there. Full stop. Sexual harassment happens in that industry, and goes unreported. I don't read anything into the fact that no charges were filed, and in my opinion, neither should anyone else.

This story is nothing less than Arnold's own Paula Jones moment. Those stories were given credence supposedly because they called Bill Clinton's character into question. These stories call Arnie's character into question - Arnie, by the way, is a prohibitive favorite to become the governor of the nation's most powerful state and the world's fifth-largest economy. If Clinton's character mattered, then Arnie's matters too. Bottom line, this is a he-said-she-said story. Perhaps a special prosecutor should be appointed?

seretogis · 10-02-2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ctembreull
I don't know. I didn't hear the original quote, but I read it later - in its entirety, with context - and I could certainly see the undertones. Sometimes it's not what's said, but what's left unsaid, and Limbaugh certainly left the impression that this was a racially motivated statement. Certainly, McNabb took it that way, and he's not alone. Sports commentators around the country have weighed in on this issue, as have fans - and they have overwhelmingly agreed that Limbaugh was certainly factually wrong, and most likely malicious in his statement. It ain't just liberals, no matter how much anyone wants to paint it that way.

It's nice to know that you are in touch with sports commentators and fans around the country on some an intimate basis. o_O

As for "racial undertones", puh-lease. Limbaugh is far from a racist, and the fact that he is opposed to preferential treatment of any race should be proof enough. What Limbaugh was bringing attention to is the racist manner in which attention is heaped upon non-whites who do not perform much better than whites in the same position. If someone is an amazing qb, regardless of their skin color, they should be held up as such. If they are "eh, pretty good" but they happen to be black, they shouldn't be touted as being amazingly wonderful. The same people who would call Limbaugh a racist for this, are the ones who would call the MSU (?) students who ran the bakesale/protest, or anyone opposed to affirmative action, "racists." (aka whiney liberals)

Quote:

Originally posted by ctembreull
Regarding the "no charges filed" bit, that's unsurprising. Some of these folks were functionaries in the movie industry, where if you cause trouble for an executive or for a star, your career ends right there. Full stop. Sexual harassment happens in that industry, and goes unreported. I don't read anything into the fact that no charges were filed, and in my opinion, neither should anyone else.

This story is nothing less than Arnold's own Paula Jones moment. Those stories were given credence supposedly because they called Bill Clinton's character into question. These stories call Arnie's character into question - Arnie, by the way, is a prohibitive favorite to become the governor of the nation's most powerful state and the world's fifth-largest economy. If Clinton's character mattered, then Arnie's matters too. Bottom line, this is a he-said-she-said story. Perhaps a special prosecutor should be appointed?

This is hardly Arnold's "Paula Jones moment," merely a last-ditch attempt to de-rail his campaign with some silly old gossip with absolutely no proof. Schwarzenegger is hardly the "model Republican" but then again, very few Republicans in office are these days. This story is just politics as usual, which means more mud for the flinging.

Superbelt · 10-02-2003, 03:19 AM

I've seen pictures of Arnold on german talk shows groping the female host.
That host was later interviewed and said that she was disgusted by his conduct.

I'll try to find the picture.

Anyway, it seems republicans are all to eager to vote for someone so similar to Clinton sex-wise. If it means they can win an election.
Hypocritical.

Thraeryn · 10-02-2003, 04:07 AM

The reason Arnie is doing so well is the same reason that Clinton did so well: charisma. You like him, I like him, the women he slept with when he was a bodybuilder like him. Talk of him groping someone isn't going to derail anything.

Quote:

Anyway, it seems republicans are all to eager to vote for someone so similar to Clinton sex-wise. If it means they can win an election.

The reason the Republicans are going with him is that they see sex appeal as the most obvious sign of charisma. I mean, doesn't the "stereotypical" politician have to go to a lobbyist or an escort service to get a date?

ctembreull · 10-02-2003, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
It's nice to know that you are in touch with sports commentators and fans around the country on some an intimate basis. o_O

We have this thing you might have heard of, it's called the intarweb or some such thing like that. The thing is, people write things and put them up on that intarweb thingy and you can read them and stuff for free, mostly. You can find out all sorts of stuff that you'd never have been able to before, all without leaving home.

Are you quite finished now?

Quote:

As for "racial undertones", puh-lease. Limbaugh is far from a racist,

It's nice to know that you are in touch with Rush Limbaugh on such an intimate basis. Sorry, but you had that coming. Consider:

Quote:

Rush: Did you ever notice how all composite sketches of criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?

Quote:

Rush (to a black caller): Take that bone out of your nose and call me back.

I'm not saying that these quotes make him a racist. Nor did I make that claim in my original post. What I did say is that there's a great deal of racial undertone in his ESPN statement. Maybe it's a racist remark, maybe it's not, but that's how it's been interpreted pretty much the length and breadth of the sports world. And to say that someone has been promoted strictly on the basis of his race is simply inviting scrutiny and leaves the speaker's motives and opinions wide-open for question and criticism.

Spin it how you like, but Rush has a history of making racially insensitive, if not overtly racist, comments - and this will most likely be regarded as one of them.

Quote:

This is hardly Arnold's "Paula Jones moment," merely a last-ditch attempt to de-rail his campaign with some silly old gossip with absolutely no proof.

Exactly: it's his Paula Jones moment. So glad you agree.

josobot · 10-02-2003, 08:31 PM

True conservatism is not despotic-leader dependent. Neither Rush, nor Arnold define conservatism. Liberal-radicals need the Che, Fidel, Lenin, Mao deified whether dead or alive.

grumpyolddude · 10-02-2003, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis

As for "racial undertones", puh-lease. Limbaugh is far from a racist, and the fact that he is opposed to preferential treatment of any race should be proof enough. What Limbaugh was bringing attention to is the racist manner in which attention is heaped upon non-whites who do not perform much better than whites in the same position. If someone is an amazing qb, regardless of their skin color, they should be held up as such. If they are "eh, pretty good" but they happen to be black, they shouldn't be touted as being amazingly wonderful. The same people who would call Limbaugh a racist for this, are the ones who would call the MSU (?) students who ran the bakesale/protest, or anyone opposed to affirmative action, "racists." (aka whiney liberals)

[/B]

Both you and Rush need to get up to date. It's been many years since the color of a quarterback's skin has been an issue. Look around the league. Vick, McNair, Culpepper and McNabb are among the best QBs in the game. Their skin color is not an issue, except in the eyes of someone intentionally making an issue of it (that's racism).
Rush is a lousy judge of football talent. He must not even be able to read a stat sheet, or he never would have said that McNabb was never any good "from the get-go".
He's also acting like a coward. He took "the path of least resistance" (his own choice of words) by resigning. His comments have not elaborated on his statements, but merely defended his right to have an opinion. He has that right, but, with his reach and influence, he has the responsibility to be well informed and back his words with something tangible.
ESPN is well rid of him. They need someone with some football knowledge on their show, not someone obviously pushing a personal social agenda.

10-01-2003, 09:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
ctembreull Crazy Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA, Earth	Those things dropping all around you are shoes. Y'know, this just hasn't been a good news cycle for conservatives. Intimigate: Rather a catchy title, that, though the whole "-gate" scandal naming convention is rather played at this point. Eighty percent of Americans polled today consider the treasonous - and it is treasonous - outing of an American intelligence official to be a "serious" matter. Nearly seventy percent said that a special prosecutor should be appointed, rather than see the Justice Department involved. More information at the Left Coaster (link). Furthermore, embarrassing quotes from prominent Republicans dating back to the Clinton years have surfaced regarding the appropriateness of the Justice Department investigating the White House. An example from John Ashcroft his own self can be found at Eschaton (link). Meanwhile, conservative pundits are parsing, spinning, and generally sounding like Democrats did in 1997. Examples are everywhere. Rush Limbaugh: Rush, after making a racially-charged (if not outright racially hostile) comment on ESPN's NFL Sunday show, according to the network (link) . Meanwhile, Drudge has posted that the rather disreputable National Enquirer is going to print with a story claiming that Rush is a drug addict (link). I don't have much confidence in this one, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling, to say the least. This story is beginning to be noticed by the mainstream media as well. Arnold Schwarzenegger: This actually isn't "new" news - many of these allegations have been around for years upon years. But the Los Angeles Times is reporting (link) (registration required - free) that as many as six women have come forward with stories claiming that the Austrian movie-star-turned-gubernatorial-wannabe is a serial groper, having groped and fondled several women on numerous occasions and in diverse situations. It remains to be seen what effect this will have on the California recall, where polls have shown Schwarzenegger with a commanding lead in the race to replace Gray Davis. Summary: This has been a nightmare day for conservatives. It's quite apparent that many of these stories are very similar in tenor and tone to the stories that hounded Bill Clinton during his second term. The emergence of these and similar memes, though, may in fact be why so many influential conservative pundits and columnists have lately noticed - quite out of the blue - that vitriol has replaced reasoned discourse here in America. Many of these same commentators were leading the charge against Clinton during the Whitewater scandal and its successors - but now, all of a sudden that a Republican is feeling some heat from a revitalized Democratic congressional caucus and a formerly prostrate national media, now these commentators want to have everyone play nice again. Good idea, won't happen. The other shoe - shoes, actually - is dropping and the Bush administration is directly in gravity's path. How this plays out, with a national election a year away and the administration's credibility and popularity already at an all-time low, is anyone's guess. __________________ Mac "If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

10-02-2003, 03:19 AM	#5 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	I've seen pictures of Arnold on german talk shows groping the female host. That host was later interviewed and said that she was disgusted by his conduct. I'll try to find the picture. Anyway, it seems republicans are all to eager to vote for someone so similar to Clinton sex-wise. If it means they can win an election. Hypocritical.

10-02-2003, 08:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
josobot Insane	True conservatism is not despotic-leader dependent. Neither Rush, nor Arnold define conservatism. Liberal-radicals need the Che, Fidel, Lenin, Mao deified whether dead or alive.