Irony - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 08:34 AM

Friday night, a Palestinian gunman infiltrates a Jewish village, and then kills intentionally a 6-month-old baby and its father (who was trying to protect the baby at the time).

Two months ago, the Palestinian goverment discusses a truce with other militant Palestinian organizations. To support this deal, Israel releases more than 200 Palestinian prisioners held by it. The released were carefully chosen: while almost all of them participated in a terror act, none succeeded (so no killers).

Where's the irony?
The gunman that killed that baby was among those that were released two months ago.

eple · 09-28-2003, 08:43 AM

dude, I heard he raped the kid first. He then proceded by hailing satan, pissing on the american flag and kicking an innocent puppy. Damn those naughty palestinians.

Food Eater Lad · 09-28-2003, 08:47 AM

Where was this village? on conficsated Palastinian land? Not that I am justifing murder, but no side is innocent here.

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 08:56 AM

Actually, that land never belonged to the Palestinians. And if you're insisting on going there, let's just recall that almost all of the lands where Israelis settle are legally bought (and those locals do demand a lot of money).

One side is innocent here: the democratic side.
No people is evil. Dictators can be evil.

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
dude, I heard he raped the kid first. He then proceded by hailing satan, pissing on the american flag and kicking an innocent puppy. Damn those naughty palestinians.

If you're implying that I overdramatized or gave inexact information, please be specific. I compared several different reports: all confirm that the baby was killed together with its father, whose body was found between the baby and the shooter.

eple · 09-28-2003, 09:14 AM

nah dude, that does sound like a very plausible story, in no way related to the tons of "palestinians is tha devil incarante" propagande spewed out by Israeli media 24/7

Nizzle · 09-28-2003, 10:44 AM

Well, eple, when Arabs do it, it's terrorism. When Zionists bulldoze a family's house to retailiate, it's "defending themselves."

And if you disagree, you are an anti-semite.

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 10:53 AM

Those are some great arguments, guys.

Lebell · 09-28-2003, 11:25 AM

I'm sorry, gentlemen, but there is no comparing a person who intentionally murders a child to bulldozing a terrorist family's house.

I pity anyone who cannot see the difference.

As to this thread, it is starting off very badly and if it turns into a pissing match like I suspect, it will be locked.

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 11:34 AM

Don't lock it please. Nobody is forced to participate.

Downtownat10 · 09-28-2003, 12:19 PM

Would it be possible to get links to any of the stories this post was derived from? It is really nothing against the you, Four Fingers, but anytime I read something like this, it is always followed with some sort of anti-Israel spill. For that reason alone, I refuse to create opinions about any Israel/Palestine incident without being able to reference from any and all sides.

If I hear something on FoxNews, I check Al Jazeera to see what they have to say. I know it's odd, but I'm trying to cut through the spin one way or another.

lurkette · 09-28-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Downtownat10
If I hear something on FoxNews, I check Al Jazeera to see what they have to say. I know it's odd, but I'm trying to cut through the spin one way or another.

Eek. Those are your sources?! Unfortunately two stories spun in opposite directions do not equal an objective look at the facts.

Re: the news item:

Listen, yes, this is a horrible story. For every horrible story that we use to demonize the Palestinians, there's an equally horrible story that could be used to demonize the Israelis. Stack up the numbers - more Palestinians dead, especially more Palestinian children; then stack up the methods - accidental shootings and shellings vs. suicide bombings of civilians. Arafat refuses to stop the terrorism; Sharon refuses to dismantle illegal settlements.

Anybody who thinks one side has any kind of monopoly on righteous indignation is blinking out of their belly-button. Both sides have committed atrocities, both sides have been wronged horribly. If there were a clear-cut answer don't you think we'd have implemented it by now?

Throwing around one-sided stories like this does nothing to further understanding of the situation.

Downtownat10 · 09-28-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Eek. Those are your sources?! Unfortunately two stories spun in opposite directions do not equal an objective look at the facts.

Well, actually that is just an anecdote I have begun using lately. Every time I would tell someone that I read something in the news, they would try to dismiss it as "spin." I usually try to get at least three sources from varying political opinions before referencing it, but it's pretty funny to see the looks on peoples faces when I say that I take the two evils (FoxNews and Al Jazeera) and divide them equally.

eple · 09-28-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Four Fingers
Those are some great arguments, guys.

Those are some great links backing up the story.

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 01:41 PM

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/fron.../28/2003069541
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...202155,00.html
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en....y&enVersion=0&

Four Fingers · 09-28-2003, 01:45 PM

And this thread is not about the story. You can post a story about Hitler's death and it'll sound sad.

The thread is about the irony of the case. It's about the left's complete unability to understand human nature and social dynamics.

Pressured by the Israeli left and the international community, the Israeli goverment releases Palestinian prisioners. It is promised that this move will help peace and bring the peoples closer.

Two months later, one of the released prisioners kills an Israeli baby in cold blood.

There were those who said this would happen.

eple · 09-28-2003, 01:46 PM

Thanks, now we can discuss.

eple · 09-28-2003, 01:50 PM

On the other hand, if the prisoners were not released, there might have been increased violence (if that is possible) and the grief-o-metre might have been on the same level. Who knows.

dylanmarsh · 10-01-2003, 08:09 PM

Wow. The middle east is so freakin sad. I just don't see a viable solution that doesn't involve one side being destroyed and the other having all kinds of sanctions put against them by the UN or others.

Macheath · 10-01-2003, 11:16 PM

Okay Four Fingers, your going to have to give us further sources for that story. I haven't yet been able to find a reference to him being one of 200 "unsuccessful terrorists" released in a peace deal.

One reference that I did find stated:

Quote:

Hamdan, a resident of the West Bank village of Tabeka, was released from an Israeli prison on July 28 after serving nearly 14 months on a conviction of intending to carry out a terrorist attack, according to an Israeli security source who spoke on condition of anonymity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Sep28.html

One specific reference I found to 200 prisoners being released 2 months ago was this LA Times article dated July 28, 2003.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/s...,4427668.story

Note the following line from the article:

Quote:

An Israeli government spokesman emphasized that none of the militants to be released had been involved in terrorist attacks, murders or kidnappings of civilians.

I have been able to find no reference to 1) him participating in a terror attack, 2) him even being one of the 200 prisoners released in a deal or 3)"almost all" of the 200 prisoners released being involved in terror attacks.

These are the key points on which this whole thread is based.

Lebell · 10-01-2003, 11:33 PM

Ladies, Gents,

THANK YOU!

Thank you for refocusing on the thread

seretogis · 10-02-2003, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dylanmarsh
Wow. The middle east is so freakin sad. I just don't see a viable solution that doesn't involve one side being destroyed and the other having all kinds of sanctions put against them by the UN or others.

Perhaps nature will find a solution for us, in the form of a well-placed meteor. The middle east is supposedly the place where human civilization began, it only makes sense that it would be the place where it begins to end, as well.

09-28-2003, 08:34 AM	#1 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Irony Friday night, a Palestinian gunman infiltrates a Jewish village, and then kills intentionally a 6-month-old baby and its father (who was trying to protect the baby at the time). Two months ago, the Palestinian goverment discusses a truce with other militant Palestinian organizations. To support this deal, Israel releases more than 200 Palestinian prisioners held by it. The released were carefully chosen: while almost all of them participated in a terror act, none succeeded (so no killers). Where's the irony? The gunman that killed that baby was among those that were released two months ago. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-28-2003, 08:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Actually, that land never belonged to the Palestinians. And if you're insisting on going there, let's just recall that almost all of the lands where Israelis settle are legally bought (and those locals do demand a lot of money). One side is innocent here: the democratic side. No people is evil. Dictators can be evil. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-28-2003, 10:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	Well, eple, when Arabs do it, it's terrorism. When Zionists bulldoze a family's house to retailiate, it's "defending themselves." And if you disagree, you are an anti-semite. __________________ Nizzle

09-28-2003, 10:53 AM	#8 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Those are some great arguments, guys. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-28-2003, 11:25 AM	#9 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I'm sorry, gentlemen, but there is no comparing a person who intentionally murders a child to bulldozing a terrorist family's house. I pity anyone who cannot see the difference. As to this thread, it is starting off very badly and if it turns into a pissing match like I suspect, it will be locked. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-28-2003, 08:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	dude, I heard he raped the kid first. He then proceded by hailing satan, pissing on the american flag and kicking an innocent puppy. Damn those naughty palestinians.

09-28-2003, 08:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Where was this village? on conficsated Palastinian land? Not that I am justifing murder, but no side is innocent here.

09-28-2003, 09:14 AM	#6 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	nah dude, that does sound like a very plausible story, in no way related to the tons of "palestinians is tha devil incarante" propagande spewed out by Israeli media 24/7

09-28-2003, 11:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Don't lock it please. Nobody is forced to participate. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-28-2003, 12:19 PM	#11 (permalink)
Downtownat10 Crazy Location: A Fortified Compound, East Coast	Would it be possible to get links to any of the stories this post was derived from? It is really nothing against the you, Four Fingers, but anytime I read something like this, it is always followed with some sort of anti-Israel spill. For that reason alone, I refuse to create opinions about any Israel/Palestine incident without being able to reference from any and all sides. If I hear something on FoxNews, I check Al Jazeera to see what they have to say. I know it's odd, but I'm trying to cut through the spin one way or another. __________________ Heh. Oops. Sorry about that one...

09-28-2003, 01:41 PM	#15 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/fron.../28/2003069541 http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...202155,00.html http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en....y&enVersion=0& __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-28-2003, 01:45 PM	#16 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	And this thread is not about the story. You can post a story about Hitler's death and it'll sound sad. The thread is about the irony of the case. It's about the left's complete unability to understand human nature and social dynamics. Pressured by the Israeli left and the international community, the Israeli goverment releases Palestinian prisioners. It is promised that this move will help peace and bring the peoples closer. Two months later, one of the released prisioners kills an Israeli baby in cold blood. There were those who said this would happen. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-28-2003, 01:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	Thanks, now we can discuss.

09-28-2003, 01:50 PM	#18 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	On the other hand, if the prisoners were not released, there might have been increased violence (if that is possible) and the grief-o-metre might have been on the same level. Who knows.

10-01-2003, 08:09 PM	#19 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Wow. The middle east is so freakin sad. I just don't see a viable solution that doesn't involve one side being destroyed and the other having all kinds of sanctions put against them by the UN or others.

10-01-2003, 11:33 PM	#21 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Ladies, Gents, THANK YOU! Thank you for refocusing on the thread __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!