Money - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

2wolves · 09-26-2003, 07:23 AM

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics...tics-headlines

"Gov't Ordered to Account for Indian Money

By ROBERT GEHRKE
Associated Press Writer

September 25, 2003, 9:55 PM EDT

WASHINGTON -- A federal judge on Thursday said he will give the Interior Department another chance to account for money owed to American Indians, setting a 2007 deadline but expressing little confidence the government would act.

"It is not that the court believes Interior is incapable of formulating an adequate plan for an accounting; rather, it is that the court has no confidence that Interior is willing to actually implement an adequate accounting," U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth wrote in his ruling.

Lamberth set strict deadlines to complete phases of the accounting, with a final tally to be reached by Sept. 30, 2007. Ultimately, the accounting would be used in a future trial to determine how much the government owes more than 300,000 American Indian landowners for mismanaging their money."

===========================================

This is a not a partisan issue. Both sides have been quite busy stealing and looting. Makes you proud to really be an american.

2Wolves

prb · 09-27-2003, 06:44 AM

Why do you hate America so?

2wolves · 09-27-2003, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prb
Why do you hate America so?

A better question might be "Why does the United States hate me?"

Why do the federal and state governments of this nation go out of their way to keep breaking their own fucking laws to continue screwing us? Just because they can?

Rule of law? Only if it's convienent.

2Wolves

Macheath · 09-27-2003, 07:20 AM

I hope the Interior Department gets its damn act together.

Food Eater Lad · 09-27-2003, 07:26 AM

I hope that once they are done, they do the same to all the Indian casinos and see where all the "money for education" is really going.

JBX · 09-27-2003, 08:19 AM

Damn and where's my money. My Grandparents came through Ellis Island and into NY. They were discriminated against for years. The U.S. gave them a bum rap. They are both dead now. I have not experienced any of the discrimination, but hey, they did, so where's my money?

2wolves · 09-27-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JBX
Damn and where's my money. My Grandparents came through Ellis Island and into NY. They were discriminated against for years. The U.S. gave them a bum rap. They are both dead now I have not experienced any of the discrimination, but hey they did, so where's my money.

Show me a treaty between your ancestors and the federal government and I might give a shit.

Give details of how your ancestors were driven off land deeded to them by the United States after anything valuable was discovered there.

Any documentation of your ganny being given poisoned food or infected blankets so that they could be easily dispossed of?

I can.

2Wolves

Lebell · 09-27-2003, 10:20 AM

There is no doubt that the US Government has mistreated the Native American population, broken treaty obligations and mismanaged the monies entrusted to it.

There is also no doubt that many tribal leaders have also mismanaged their money, natural and responsibilities to their people.

My question to 2Wolves is what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to continue to rage at the unchangable past or work to change the future?

2wolves · 09-27-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
There is no doubt that the US Government has mistreated the Native American population, broken treaty obligations and mismanaged the monies entrusted to it.

There is also no doubt that many tribal leaders have also mismanaged their money, natural and responsibilities to their people.

My question to 2Wolves is what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to continue to rage at the unchangable past or work to change the future?

Why do you believe that I live in the soul killing D.C. area if not to work towards something? Directed rage keeps me pounding on doors and talking ever so softly to people who really don't care about a situation unless you can line their campaign chest. (one of the reasons I find the reservation casinos a boon and a bane)

If you feel like it, respond with the county and state where YOU live and I'll see if you're established on land that possibly belongs to someone else.
I've done this a number of times to lobbyists and such ilk especially on the eastern seaboard and the howls of disbelief comfort me.

2Wolves

David2000 · 09-27-2003, 11:45 AM

I think it's bullshit that the United states owes the native americans anything--the government back then committed some horrible atrocities but you know what, shit happens. It pisses me off when people think that just cause something bad may have happened to someone they never knew that they happen to be related to, they are owed something. People like that are no better than people that slip walking down a perfectly good flight of stairs and then sue to get millions. It's people like that that are fucking up the reputation of the legal system--and lo and behold! it's also people like that that are COMPLAINING about it. Seems like if they just stopped abusing it, things would work out.

Frustrated! I think there's too much of a "people owe me" culture and not enough of a "what do I owe others" attitude

Lebell · 09-27-2003, 11:50 AM

Well, I think it can be argued that everyone occupies land that once belonged to someone else.

Around here 150 years ago you would have found the Arapahoe and Cheyenne tribes.

But history is littered with battles and displaced peoples and truthfully, they have little bearing on the way things are right now.

I wish you luck in your work.

Food Eater Lad · 09-27-2003, 09:23 PM

Its not as if the Indians were peaceful and didnt wage wars of aggression UNTILL the white man showed up. I think it was horrible what the early americans did. Its the same as the Israelis are doing to the palastinians. Its what the later europeans did to the celts. Its what the Japanese did to the natives of japan. Its what the Zulu's did to everyone in africa. Should I have to pay for it? Nope. I think we should stop what is going on now, and to those that lost their land 400 years ago, its time to move on.

filtherton · 09-27-2003, 09:42 PM

While it is true that none of us are directly responsible for what happened because we weren't around back then, our government is because it was. If the U.S. government signed a treaty it should honor it or its equivalent. Why is that such a stretch?

smooth · 09-27-2003, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
While it is true that none of us are directly responsible for what happened because we weren't around back then, our government is because it was. If the U.S. government signed a treaty it should honor it or its equivalent. Why is that such a stretch?

I agree. We hold other countries responsible for their debts even after their leaders have been deposed and replaced.

David2000 · 09-28-2003, 06:32 AM

The replacement of leaders of course shouldn't forgive a nation of its debts--but 400 years is a little bit more salient a barrier than a change of administration. And it's silly and naive to try and say that "the government will pay for it" and try to separate us out of the picture. If they pay for it, it will be with raised taxes, and it will come out of our pockets.

ARTelevision · 09-28-2003, 06:57 AM

I have a proud and noble ethnic heritage.
My forebears were discriminated against.
There's even some of that persisting today.
I don't pay any attention to it.

I have rejected all that because it held me back in terms of my personal evolution. This is just me. I have learned this through years of experience living on this planet. Perhaps it is relevant to this thread. Perhaps it is not.

2wolves · 10-02-2003, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David2000
The replacement of leaders of course shouldn't forgive a nation of its debts--but 400 years is a little bit more salient a barrier than a change of administration. And it's silly and naive to try and say that "the government will pay for it" and try to separate us out of the picture. If they pay for it, it will be with raised taxes, and it will come out of our pockets.

Where are you coming up with the "400 years" thing? Treaties with recongnized soverign native nations were signed, and shortly thereafter, broken less than 100 years ago. There are people who are alive today when some of these treaties were put into effect.

As to taking responsibility and paying for these frauds/thefts ..... a debt doesn't go away just because it's old (unless all the people who are owed those monies get killed off).

2Wolves

123dsa · 10-02-2003, 05:00 AM

Ridiculous. Go out and work and quit bitching about somebody owing you something. I am a second generation swedsh-american, why should my taxes be used to pay your reparations.

On a related note...people seem to forget that the Indians were killing each other long before we (the evil whities) ever made it here. The fact that you're able to project your whiney little message throughout the internet is a blessing the poor little indians have received from white influence. Yeah europeans conquered this land. You're lucky that the natives weren't killed off entirely. Your people lost the war. Your cause isn't mine.

LSD

2wolves · 10-02-2003, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 123dsa
Ridiculous. Go out and work and quit bitching about somebody owing you something. I am a second generation swedsh-american, why should my taxes be used to pay your reparations.

On a related note...people seem to forget that the Indians were killing each other long before we (the evil whities) ever made it here. The fact that you're able to project your whiney little message throughout the internet is a blessing the poor little indians have received from white influence. Yeah europeans conquered this land. You're lucky that the natives weren't killed off entirely. Your people lost the war. Your cause isn't mine.

LSD

So you're in favor of your government breaking treaties and contracts? Where does that ethical attitude lead you in your personal life? Does your S.O. agree that's it's perfectly reasonable to break your word and bond just to steal and plunder? How do you feel when you get stolen from?

As for natives killing natives..... what does that have to do with the subject at hand in the slightest? Or are you indulging in spin?

2Wolves

irseg · 10-02-2003, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
So you're in favor of your government breaking treaties and contracts? Where does that ethical attitude lead you in your personal life? Does your S.O. agree that's it's perfectly reasonable to break your word and bond just to steal and plunder? How do you feel when you get stolen from?

Against throwing money at undeserving people != Favoring an unethical government.

Has the government broken any treaties/contracts with you personally?

I'm sure some of my ancestors got screwed over or discriminated against. Thing is, I don't sit around bitching about it in hopes that I can get some money out of it somehow. I choose to be productive instead.

2wolves · 10-02-2003, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irseg
Against throwing money at undeserving people != Favoring an unethical government.

Has the government broken any treaties/contracts with you personally?

I'm sure some of my ancestors got screwed over or discriminated against. Thing is, I don't sit around bitching about it in hopes that I can get some money out of it somehow. I choose to be productive instead.

Question #1. Yes and that includes members of my immediate family.

And were your ancestors screwed over by the United States Federal government by breaking an existing, mutually agreed upon treaty between two soverign states?

As for being productive.... how much time do you believe I devote to this board? Please present your facts, and if you don't have any factual information it would behoove you to make the effort before engaging in random cheap shots.

2Wolves

filtherton · 10-02-2003, 02:38 PM

All you people who are complaining about 2wolves complaining would probably shit a brick if some huge corporation broke a contract with your company. You'd probably sue to make them honor it right? Or would you just forget about it and say to yourself

Quote:

I don't sit around bitching about it in hopes that I can get some money out of it somehow. I choose to be productive instead.

Quote:

Ridiculous. Go out and work and quit bitching about somebody owing you something. I am a second generation swedsh-american, why should my taxes be used to pay your reparations.

You don't think you should be liable for your government's past mistakes cause you came into the game late? Maybe you'll refrain from using any roads or public buildings that precede your parents coming here too. If you're not liable to the past, why should you benefit from it?

MuadDib · 10-02-2003, 03:22 PM

Has anyone else noticed how some states and agencies have talked about reparations and now some are even actually apologizing, but NO ONE has seriously talked about actually giving a real portion of the land back to its rightful owners and actually recognizing them as a totally seperate and sovereign nation?

123dsa · 10-02-2003, 06:22 PM

"You don't think you should be liable for your government's past mistakes cause you came into the game late? Maybe you'll refrain from using any roads or public buildings that precede your parents coming here too. If you're not liable to the past, why should you benefit from it?"

If I shouldn't benefit from the roads then neither should 2wolves. I was only saying that I think he is entitled to NOTHING. I owe him NOTHING and that's what he'll get from me. I believe that the government owes him nothing. To claim that the treaties signed with someone he claims as ancestors still hold water today is the same as saying that the Germans are still responible for WW1 debt. Neither exists.

Entitlement is crap. EARN something.

LSD

seretogis · 10-02-2003, 06:44 PM

The past is the past. I'm more concerned with the idea that a federal agency has "misplaced" millions of dollars (?) rather than treaties that our great-great-great-great grandfathers have broken. We need accountability, not reparations.

MuadDib · 10-02-2003, 07:43 PM

To say that our government shouldn't be responsible for the treaties it has signed in the past goes beyond ridiculous and into the realm of a violation of legitimacy! For Christ sakes, let's erase the national debt! I didn't agree to it! And while we are at it let's just flush the constitution since it was signed so long ago why should our government abide by THOSE agreements made to our ancestors... I mean we can hardly show birth certificates to verify our decent from the American forefathers. Birth certificates didn't even exist then. The Geneva Convention, NAFTA, NATO, UN... GOODBYE!

If a government can't held accountable to honor the treaties it signed then the government is not fit to rule PERIOD. Seretogis is right about one thing. We need accountability! And our government is accountable to the Native American people for the agreements it arranged under force! Entitlement is NOT crap. I am entitled to life, liberty, justice, fairness, and human dignity. I am entitled to the land and property my father has earned in his life time. At the point that you advocate no entitlement I hope to God that you don't have a will written up or if you do that it gives everything to government of the United States of America because your children sure as hell don't deserve it. The Native American people lived on and cared for the land for longer than United States have been in existence and we stole it from them. We murder, raped, and TERRORIZED them out of their property and their birth right. Imagine for a second what it might be like to lose everything you and your ancestors had worked for to a hostile force and then be forced into a treaty for your survival and then to not even have that treay honored for hundreds of years! Its not right, its not fair, and DAMN IT we would not tolerate this from any other nation!

123dsa, you might not think you owe 2wolves anything, but you are wrong. You owe him the basic respect you would expect given to you. Your government made a contractual agreement to his and that is that. The US should pay its dues. It made the agreement and it is still around. We have the money and its really the least we could do. Hell, we have the extra land and technically they still own about 1/3 of the United States since no arrangement was ever made for our annexing it. Give them the money and while we are at it lets give them some of the uninhabited lands in our country. Lord knows if we keep them we'll just eventually drill all the resources out of them and they could handle that or better so why not?

09-26-2003, 07:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Money http://www.newsday.com/news/politics...tics-headlines "Gov't Ordered to Account for Indian Money By ROBERT GEHRKE Associated Press Writer September 25, 2003, 9:55 PM EDT WASHINGTON -- A federal judge on Thursday said he will give the Interior Department another chance to account for money owed to American Indians, setting a 2007 deadline but expressing little confidence the government would act. "It is not that the court believes Interior is incapable of formulating an adequate plan for an accounting; rather, it is that the court has no confidence that Interior is willing to actually implement an adequate accounting," U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth wrote in his ruling. Lamberth set strict deadlines to complete phases of the accounting, with a final tally to be reached by Sept. 30, 2007. Ultimately, the accounting would be used in a future trial to determine how much the government owes more than 300,000 American Indian landowners for mismanaging their money." =========================================== This is a not a partisan issue. Both sides have been quite busy stealing and looting. Makes you proud to really be an american. 2Wolves

09-27-2003, 08:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	Damn and where's my money. My Grandparents came through Ellis Island and into NY. They were discriminated against for years. The U.S. gave them a bum rap. They are both dead now. I have not experienced any of the discrimination, but hey, they did, so where's my money? __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery" Last edited by JBX; 09-27-2003 at 11:22 AM..

09-27-2003, 10:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	There is no doubt that the US Government has mistreated the Native American population, broken treaty obligations and mismanaged the monies entrusted to it. There is also no doubt that many tribal leaders have also mismanaged their money, natural and responsibilities to their people. My question to 2Wolves is what are you going to do about it? Are you going to continue to rage at the unchangable past or work to change the future? __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-27-2003, 11:45 AM	#10 (permalink)
David2000 Tilted Location: New Haven, CT	I think it's bullshit that the United states owes the native americans anything--the government back then committed some horrible atrocities but you know what, shit happens. It pisses me off when people think that just cause something bad may have happened to someone they never knew that they happen to be related to, they are owed something. People like that are no better than people that slip walking down a perfectly good flight of stairs and then sue to get millions. It's people like that that are fucking up the reputation of the legal system--and lo and behold! it's also people like that that are COMPLAINING about it. Seems like if they just stopped abusing it, things would work out. Frustrated! I think there's too much of a "people owe me" culture and not enough of a "what do I owe others" attitude __________________ However livin' better now, Gucci sweater now.. Last edited by David2000; 09-27-2003 at 11:59 AM..

09-27-2003, 11:50 AM	#11 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Well, I think it can be argued that everyone occupies land that once belonged to someone else. Around here 150 years ago you would have found the Arapahoe and Cheyenne tribes. But history is littered with battles and displaced peoples and truthfully, they have little bearing on the way things are right now. I wish you luck in your work. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-27-2003, 06:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
prb Psycho	Why do you hate America so?

09-27-2003, 07:20 AM	#4 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I hope the Interior Department gets its damn act together.

09-27-2003, 07:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	I hope that once they are done, they do the same to all the Indian casinos and see where all the "money for education" is really going.

09-27-2003, 09:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Its not as if the Indians were peaceful and didnt wage wars of aggression UNTILL the white man showed up. I think it was horrible what the early americans did. Its the same as the Israelis are doing to the palastinians. Its what the later europeans did to the celts. Its what the Japanese did to the natives of japan. Its what the Zulu's did to everyone in africa. Should I have to pay for it? Nope. I think we should stop what is going on now, and to those that lost their land 400 years ago, its time to move on.

09-27-2003, 09:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	While it is true that none of us are directly responsible for what happened because we weren't around back then, our government is because it was. If the U.S. government signed a treaty it should honor it or its equivalent. Why is that such a stretch?

09-28-2003, 06:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
David2000 Tilted Location: New Haven, CT	The replacement of leaders of course shouldn't forgive a nation of its debts--but 400 years is a little bit more salient a barrier than a change of administration. And it's silly and naive to try and say that "the government will pay for it" and try to separate us out of the picture. If they pay for it, it will be with raised taxes, and it will come out of our pockets. __________________ However livin' better now, Gucci sweater now..

09-28-2003, 06:57 AM	#16 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I have a proud and noble ethnic heritage. My forebears were discriminated against. There's even some of that persisting today. I don't pay any attention to it. I have rejected all that because it held me back in terms of my personal evolution. This is just me. I have learned this through years of experience living on this planet. Perhaps it is relevant to this thread. Perhaps it is not. __________________ create evolution

10-02-2003, 05:00 AM	#18 (permalink)
123dsa Crazy Location: KY	Ridiculous. Go out and work and quit bitching about somebody owing you something. I am a second generation swedsh-american, why should my taxes be used to pay your reparations. On a related note...people seem to forget that the Indians were killing each other long before we (the evil whities) ever made it here. The fact that you're able to project your whiney little message throughout the internet is a blessing the poor little indians have received from white influence. Yeah europeans conquered this land. You're lucky that the natives weren't killed off entirely. Your people lost the war. Your cause isn't mine. LSD

10-02-2003, 03:22 PM	#23 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	Has anyone else noticed how some states and agencies have talked about reparations and now some are even actually apologizing, but NO ONE has seriously talked about actually giving a real portion of the land back to its rightful owners and actually recognizing them as a totally seperate and sovereign nation? __________________ "The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

10-02-2003, 06:22 PM	#24 (permalink)
123dsa Crazy Location: KY	"You don't think you should be liable for your government's past mistakes cause you came into the game late? Maybe you'll refrain from using any roads or public buildings that precede your parents coming here too. If you're not liable to the past, why should you benefit from it?" If I shouldn't benefit from the roads then neither should 2wolves. I was only saying that I think he is entitled to NOTHING. I owe him NOTHING and that's what he'll get from me. I believe that the government owes him nothing. To claim that the treaties signed with someone he claims as ancestors still hold water today is the same as saying that the Germans are still responible for WW1 debt. Neither exists. Entitlement is crap. EARN something. LSD

10-02-2003, 06:44 PM	#25 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	The past is the past. I'm more concerned with the idea that a federal agency has "misplaced" millions of dollars (?) rather than treaties that our great-great-great-great grandfathers have broken. We need accountability, not reparations. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

10-02-2003, 07:43 PM	#26 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	To say that our government shouldn't be responsible for the treaties it has signed in the past goes beyond ridiculous and into the realm of a violation of legitimacy! For Christ sakes, let's erase the national debt! I didn't agree to it! And while we are at it let's just flush the constitution since it was signed so long ago why should our government abide by THOSE agreements made to our ancestors... I mean we can hardly show birth certificates to verify our decent from the American forefathers. Birth certificates didn't even exist then. The Geneva Convention, NAFTA, NATO, UN... GOODBYE! If a government can't held accountable to honor the treaties it signed then the government is not fit to rule PERIOD. Seretogis is right about one thing. We need accountability! And our government is accountable to the Native American people for the agreements it arranged under force! Entitlement is NOT crap. I am entitled to life, liberty, justice, fairness, and human dignity. I am entitled to the land and property my father has earned in his life time. At the point that you advocate no entitlement I hope to God that you don't have a will written up or if you do that it gives everything to government of the United States of America because your children sure as hell don't deserve it. The Native American people lived on and cared for the land for longer than United States have been in existence and we stole it from them. We murder, raped, and TERRORIZED them out of their property and their birth right. Imagine for a second what it might be like to lose everything you and your ancestors had worked for to a hostile force and then be forced into a treaty for your survival and then to not even have that treay honored for hundreds of years! Its not right, its not fair, and DAMN IT we would not tolerate this from any other nation! 123dsa, you might not think you owe 2wolves anything, but you are wrong. You owe him the basic respect you would expect given to you. Your government made a contractual agreement to his and that is that. The US should pay its dues. It made the agreement and it is still around. We have the money and its really the least we could do. Hell, we have the extra land and technically they still own about 1/3 of the United States since no arrangement was ever made for our annexing it. Give them the money and while we are at it lets give them some of the uninhabited lands in our country. Lord knows if we keep them we'll just eventually drill all the resources out of them and they could handle that or better so why not? __________________ "The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751