JBX

This seems okay to me, what's good for the goose...

I've always had a problem with "Black" Miss America or "Black and Latino" music awards. I always wondered why there is no out cry like there would be if there was a "White" Miss America or the "White" music awards. My true opinion is to do away with labeling and cut out all the special interest awards and just have Music Awards or Miss America.

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"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

The_Dude

yes, i know what u mean.

i'm thinking that she should be allowed to create a club like that.

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

docbungle

Well, if there hadn't been any such thing as slavery or the KKK or any of that nonsense, then I'm sure things would be very different today, as far as attitudes go. But, seeing as how those things are a part of all of our history, society deems it neccessary to have black clubs or asian clubs or whatever while frowning on whites who attempt to form the same kinds of clubs for themselves.

Seems that every once in a while some white guy/girl will spout off about how unfair this is and try to start their own 'group' but most often this is done for the wrong reasons, i.e., "well if they can do it then I can do it, too" and not actually because they have a need for such a group.

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JBX

I just think it's time we as a people look forward as a people and quit looking back on things we have not ourselves experienced but the misfortunes of ancestors we've never known.

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"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

Arc101

It comes down to need and the reasons behind it. If this section of the community is being treated unfairly and is excluded and feels disempowered then I can understand why they need to get together.

archer2371

Yeah seriously, I don't see a problem with her starting a club like that, especially since she has all that ethnicity in her heritage.

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"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

filtherton

Those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't have a problem with this club, although you might argue that this whole country is more or less a "caucasian" club.
The cast majority of our elected representatives are white and white privelidge is no myth. People speak of black, or chicano culture. What is white culture? Pop culture is the culture of the majority, which just happens to be white- so white culture and pop culture are very closely interwoven.
I used to wonder why i feel like i have no culture, nothing to set me apart from anybody else in terms of customs and traditions. Then i realized that as a american, i have no seperate culture. My culture as a set of beliefs, customs and traditions was what i saw every time i turned on the TV or read the paper. Every time i went to the mall, that was my culture i saw. I don't have to worry about losing my culture, because my culture is everywhere.

On the other hand, there are lots of people in this country who have their own culture completely seperate from pop culture. In fact everybody exists in their own subculture as well as in popular culture. Having a chicano or african american club can be a positive way to keep a nonmajority culture alive. It is very similar to the exclusive social networks that we all have.

JcL

yeah but those who live in the past don't live at all

__________________
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

Phaenx

Because the same people who rail against ignorance in regards to racial equality will call us racists.

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drawerfixer

My high school intramural basketball squad was DQed for our team name: White Pride

More power to the girl.

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They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

ARTelevision

2 bad ideas don't make one good idea.
race-based anything is pointless, in my opinion.

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The_Dude

well, i agree with that statement for most instances.

i am a member of a campus indian organization.

the intent is to be able to do some things that i wouldnt be able to do without membership (like play cricket for example).

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Kec

It's gotta go both ways. If someone can go to school wearing a "Black and Proud" shirt, how come the same school will expell you for wearing one that says "White and Proud."

seretogis

It's hardly "society" as a whole that is in favor of this double standard, it is a small group of rich elitests.

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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
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SkanK0r

I'd love to see you somehow back that statement up, Seretogis.

2wolves

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO. Oh man, stop, you're killing me here.

You know how many 'nice' caucasians still ask me if I've ever scalped anyone? After I patiently explain that that quaint custom was initiated by 'nice' caucasians to prove that some upright citizen had actually killed one of us they most often call me a liar and leave in a huff, or a SUV.

I look forward to seeing all the treaties and obligations signed by the U.S. government brought to court and upheld. Most are still in effect but would disrupt too many caucasian lives to ever get enforced.

I look forward to seeing thousands of U.S. citizens kicked off thier ill gotten land.

I look forward to all the oil/gas/mineral rights payments which have been stolen and continue to be theived away.

This is not a subject concerning what happened hundreds of years ago.

And you don't speak for me.

2Wolves

G_Whiz

Without more information, I won't make a blanket statement about the club that the girl is proposing. Generally, I don't see the point to most of these clubs based on ethnicity.

However, with all of that said, you can expect to see more of this in California. The "whites" are no longer in the majority here. They are still the largest ethnic group but are less than 50% of the population. Within the next 10 years, whites are expected to be a minority group in California.

Oh, BTW, I am one of the whites and haven't seen that it changes anything. But you can be sure that someone will think that it does.

__________________
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

maynard0012

Here in Houston whites are a minority. When I was in high school I joked about joining the African American Association, or starting a club like that girl's doing. It's a dumb idea, and maybe it will get people to think about how ridiculous it is to make distinctions based on race.

Macheath

Wow, think of all the things they can do in this Caucasian Club. Dress up in costumes of the Svan hunter, the Tushin shepherds, and the Adzhar fishermen. Study the handicrafts of the Armenian jewelers, blacksmiths and braziers from Alexandropol. Lobby for Uyghur language studies and have long important discussions about the political situation in Kyrgyzstan. Maybe even a once a year visit to the Russian Museum of Ethnography.

Maybe they can even join the Campus Communists in a yearly celebration of the life of Georgia's finest son, Josef Stalin with a big barbecue cookup of Yarpakh Dolmasy, Karabakh Loby and Liulia-Kebab.

What a fine thing it is to celebrate Caucasian culture.

guthmund

Gosh, this post that started out alright, took a very wrong (and nasty) direction about half way through.

I hate to point this out, but the majority of "white" folks don't live in fancy mansions, make the laws, or oppress minorities.

To be sure, that most of these fellows are of the white race, but the dividing line between in America has never been drawn between white and all others, but rather between the haves and the have-nots.

And sure, there are many "white" folks who feel disenfranchised from society and have chosen to speak a message of hate, but these guys are the bottom of barrel kind of guys and it's the same all across our cultural rainbow.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there are ignorant people everywhere or every color and while "the man" may be white he looks at me with the same contempt he looks at every other nasty poor person. Unless he's slumming for votes

Back to the question....I think all these clubs are stupid. I think the Latin grammys, the Essence awards and all the rest aren't celebrating culture, but rather cashing in on a demographic. Remember the first year of the Latin grammys? It was on CBS and they were pumping hundreds of ads starting about six months before the actual show. Latin music was hot and so were the Latin grammys. This year the show came and went without 1/4 of the hoopla that surrounded the first one.

If she wants to start a Caucasian club then I see no problem with it. On my campus, we have an African-American club, an Asian club, and a Rich folks club (they don't call it that, but every member's family makes a comfortable living)

If you're going to disband her club, then to be fair you should disband them all.

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Zeld2.0

I don't see a problem with it BUT i think a lot of people around here being caucasian / white / whatever, don't see it from the flip side.

Whites are the clear majority in the country, why would you need a group to promote the culture when in fact the culture is already mainstream.

Hispanic / black groups are often there to promote unity amongst minorities, and I see no problem with it. If they can help each other out and fight for their rights, theres no issue with it.

I think what people are ignoring (or want to ignore) is the fact that the truth of the matter is, discrimination is still out there, and whites are still (and i hate to use the word, but to get the point across..) the "ruling" majority.

Even today if you are black chances are, a white jury will find you guilty, whereas a white man may get away. Hell even in California, where everything seems so liberal, its still true.

And I personally think everyone using the argument that "so they can do it, why can't the whites" or "thats just being racist themselves" needs to think outside of themselves for a bit - if you were part of a minority where you knew the others hated you or had their biases, would you not seek companions in your own race?

Fact is, history has shown that happens to even the "whites" that immigrated here. All sorts of ethnicities formed together since the earliest days.

Loki

ah, but race is the single easiest way to create the "bad group" ;]

Xell101

Course it will, most people are hyper sensitive about race issues, the media loves it.

chavos

why form a cultural club for a group that's defined by not having a culture of it's own? she's trolling for racial outcry...and getting it apparently. Let her form it, and wait for it to die off.

BigGov

White is the majority race. We're not the "ruling" white people aren't getting together and scheming against all other races, most of us are just trying to live our lives. What do you propose to fix the problem? Kill X amount of white people? Import black people from Africa and asians from Asia? Because thats about the only way it's going to be solved.

So just because someone is white they are automatically unqualified to properly serve on a jury? Court cases aren't easily catagorized because they're all different, saying white people aren't good jurors, which you are blatantly argueing, is a racist comment which produces more racism.

Except you're not taking into account that the white children in the school might be in the minority. Is it magically ok then?

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

redravin40

Actually this makes sense. If she had said she wanted to start an Italian club or an Irish club etc. etc. where heritage, food and culture would be celebrated and explored that would have made more sense and been less divisive.

Speaking of divisive, this subject has the potential for getting rather ugly and we would rather this thread keep the usual high standards that are found in Tilted Politics.

filtherton

I want all the white people in here to acknowledge that white privelidge exists. That as a white male, i can drive down the street anywhere in the country at any time in any kind of car and not get pulled over just because i am white. If you can't acknowledge the covert racism in this country than you're not paying attention. I'm not saying that everyone is racist, just that you and i probably in some small way are. Acknowledge that fact and then try to make a change. This country can be a radically different place to live depending on your skin color. Of course skin color is not the only determinant but it can be a big one.

Anyways, if minorities got equal representatoin in the media-equal, not "look there is one mexican guy on NBC this season, gosh they're diverse"- but actual representation, there wouldn't be a need for seperate awards ceremonies.

Zeld2.0

Agreed completely.

BigGov

Fuck no I won't acknowledge that. Anytime I've ever talked to someone and they say they've been pulled over, has it been of their skin color? No, it's because they were breaking the law, speeding, loud music, or not wearing a seat belt.

So writers need to write in someone special so a TV show is diverse? "Wait, there's not a black guy in here, we have to find one." No, that's the WRONG way to go. Hell, the funniest comedian in America IMO will never get a show on a major network. Why? Because the censors won't allow an act like Carlos Mencia on primetime TV. HBO on the other hand, there's a possiblity.

Kyo

Racism is multidirectional - there is no single group as the 'victim', nor any single group as the 'oppressor.' Perhaps it was very black and white (pun intended) a few decades ago - my American history isn't as good as I wish it were - but it isn't true now. Everyone is discriminated against at some time or another. With minorities, it is blatantly obvious, certainly, especially since everyone makes a big deal out of minority injustice.

Minorities will discriminate against majorites if they can - I've seen it happen, talked to others who've had it happen to them, and hell, though I'm not proud to admit it, our own community discriminates against all outsiders, minority or not. My uncle works at a place where the minority management will always hire and promote workers of the same race as them - since my uncle has been there, no worker has been promoted over them, even though they have never performed up to par. The bigwigs upstairs don't care, because most minorities file discrimination lawsuits, majorities and Asians don't.

But this isn't just a case of morals and repaying debts. This is about politics. Blacks and hispanics have political clout. They have enough power that if you do something they don't like (as a collective), they can threaten you and make it stick. That's what it comes down to in America - power, not morality. Discriminating against them, or even giving them the impression that you are, is dangerous - they will slap you with that 'racist' label faster than your lawyers can pop open their briefcases. They will sue your lily white ass. They will put your shiny CEO face in the headlines.

That's why they can wear 'Black and proud' but you get expelled for 'White and proud'. If a minority student is offended, their parents will come in and make a stink to high heaven. Schools don't want that. It's a lot easier to just kick you out - smother the problem. And they know that smothering the member of the majority is always safer than smothering the minorities - because those in the majority don't support each other. Those in the minorities do.

I'm getting out of hand, I admit. But my point is this - things are the way they are because minorities have the power to threaten and make it stick. I believe anyone who thinks 'equality' will be the result of moral enlightenment and repayment of past debts is just deluding themselves.

But back to the main point. Minority clubs exist as a refuge for those that feel out of place or ignored in the general population. It is bringing together people who are of a certain background - much the same way a photography club or a martial arts club might. But I feel this girl is stroking her ego and salving her injured pride. "How come the minorities get a club, but we don't? That's discrimination." She wants to spit our own minority stuff back at us, to show us that she's boss and she's not going to take our minority bullshit sitting down. And that's entirely the wrong reason to start the club. God willing, I'm wrong, but the same thing happened at my old high school several years ago and the only reason the person could come up for starting it was "There's a black student union, why can't I have a caucasian student union?"

Race is the final dividing factor - everything stems from it. People that look different from you obviously have to be different, right? People who look different from you are probably savages or something. Listen to their language, how uncivilized; I mean, really, who would talk like that? OMG keep them away from me.

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fckm

I agree wholeheartedly with the above. What purpose does a "caucasian club" serve? its obvious that this girl is just trolling. If she were really serious about celebrating culture and heritage, she'd make a "world wide culture and heritage club". What white suburbia fails to realize is that "ethnic clubs" in high schools and colleges have purposes other than to just hang out with people of your own race. In some instances, they provide a safe, non-judgemental environment and allow people to feel more comfortable. Some groups try to disseminate information about their culture and history. Thinking of them as a 'blacks' or 'asians' club is incredible superficial.
As whites are currently the majority (or the major minority, depending on where you are) and everybody grows up learning about american/european history, and grows up marinated in mainstream american culture via the media, it seems superfluous and rather insulting to have a 'caucasian club'.

__________________
And if you say to me tomorrow, oh what fun it all would be.
Then what's to stop us, pretty baby. But What Is And What Should Never Be.

Food Eater Lad

So she cant have a place to go and feel comfortable and safe in a non judgemental enviroment? This is something denied whites?

filtherton

No, that's not what i'm saying. The fact of the matter is that, for whatever reason, minorities are under represented in television and the movies. There's no way you can argue against that being the state of the industry, and you seem to acknowledge that in your response. How that would be remedied, or if there is even a remedy is anyone's guess.

Maybe you've heard of racial profiling? That is the practice by police of pulling over people based on their skin color. I don't know who you talk to, but it really does happen. Why are minorities incarcerated at a greater rate than whites? Why are minorities more likely to be sentenced to death than white people for similar crimes? Why is the idea of a minority presidential candidate seem just a little less likely than hearing the phrase "President Ashton Kutcher"? Just because you won't acknowledge it doesn't mean it isn't real.

Futhermore, i've noticed that whenever "white pride" is offended the "but everyone is discriminatory" argument comes out. It is a valid argument, but it's user generally ignores the fact only the majority (political-socioeconomical, not population) has the institutions and pop culture on it's side. Minorities may discriminate too, but most cops, politicians, CEO's, and managers are white. True, minorities now have more power than ever, but that power had to be fought for, and it is still being fought for. And whatever power they have still can't hold a candle to the power white people are given in this country just for being born.

Flame on white people.

fckm

How about the entire school?
And no, its not something denied whites. Again, I'd be perfectly happy if she were making a club for that purpose. More power to her. But come on, do you honesty think that some girl trying to start a 'caucasian club' is looking for a place of peace and comfort? Or does it sound like she's out to troll the town and whip up racial tensions?

__________________
And if you say to me tomorrow, oh what fun it all would be.
Then what's to stop us, pretty baby. But What Is And What Should Never Be.

BigGov

See big cities and how drug operations are run. That is one major factor.

How many legitamate minority canidates have ran? Keep thinking all night because you're not going to come up with one.

No shit. Know why? Because a very, VERY, large majority of people in the USA are WHITE. That's why everyone else is in the MINORITY.

Just because you acknowledge it doesn't necessarily make it true either.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Food Eater Lad

Or make a politcal point?

Ace_of_Lobster

Like "Its time to invade Poland!" ?

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filtherton

Jimmy, I don't get what your saying about cities and drugs, please elaborate.
As far as illegitimate candidates go, being a minority seems to render a candidate illegitimate. Remember Alan Keyes? He seemed like a model conservative, can you tell me what made him illegitimate? Why have there been no legitimate minority candidates? Are there no minorities who would make a good president? I doubt that. You'd think if all things were equal one of your "legitimate" minority candidates would've appeared.

As far as your other points, you miss my points.
To review:
1. This country is covertly racist.
2. Everyone is capable of discrimination, but since white people are capable of discrimination and are also the majority, they have more power and control than nonwhites. Many people believe that the difference between racism and discrimination is power.
3. Just because you won't acknowledge that it is true, doesn't make it untrue. Although, if you have some evidence that there exists no institutional racism in this country, by all means share it.

This country didn't just magically become a happyhappyland of racial harmony after the civil rights movement had its heyday. I doubt anyone but the most naive would claim that. So why do so many of my fellow white people have such a hard time admitting that this country is still racist? Don't feel guilty, you aren't the only one. We all occasionally let our actions be governed by fears and misconceptions. The righteous person isn't afraid to confront his/her faults. To paraphrase batman, "a problem that goes unacknowledged, goes unsolved."

Food Eater Lad

Or to show that every group is allowed to have a club but whites. When blacks or what have you gather, its empowering, but when whites gather its time to get the hoods. Mabye she was fighting that mentallity. The mentallity that is very common in this thread.

Blacks, asians, mexicans, women, what ever can have a club. Whites cant. Doesnt this seem er, ah, racist?

Zeld2.0

Like many say, racism / discrimination in this country lies with the ones in power. Minorities often band together if anything for protection.

Now then, I don't see why you have to bring in minorities and drugs Jimmy. Its true that a big part of them are minorities, but you know who buys a lot of them? Yes, indeed, whites. And the truth is, where money is to be made, anyone will go for it. Fact of the matter is, if it wasn't run by minorities, it'd be run by the majority, and that would be white.

not to mention that many of them are able to prevent being caught if anything by the image. Racial profiling, for instance, will never target the white guy driving his car or whatever, and if he's carrying drugs, the cops won't bother.

And Food, I agree that its stupid people liek to bring it up and say that whites can't form clubs.

But part of the problem is, why would they need it?

The question is - why. What would the whites need?

Is it time to bring out the guns and fight hte minorities back? Most likely not the reason for the club, but the percieved notion would be that.

Another part would be another image of it - why congregate when you already have the power in the country. Why need it?

And honestly, in truth, there are few reasons to even have a white club to begin with. Be it a wrong percieved image, or what not, but I think the problem people here are arguing with, is merely the entire stupid "principle."

People just love to put the principle into it. "OMG you can have it but we can't, racist!!!!"

or

"Black club, hispanic club, asian club... no white club. Thats like so wrong omg!"

Honestly though, theres few reasons to hold a club for whites anyways. It can honestly be anything, but what real reasons are there? Protection, cultural values, etc. are hardly legitimate in most places honestly. (and duh, cultural is kinda stupid to even mention considering society IS based on white american culture.)

And notice that for many "white" races there are clubs - German clubs, etc. and those are hardly noticed.