j8ear

I kind of liked leatherneck. After the battle scarred leather collar we used to wear to protect from errant sword blades.

True enough though, Devil Dog is much better...and "earned" as the case may be.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

silent_jay

It probably would have helped make me think it was a joke, rather than a shot at me. I never take myself seriously, hell I'm in the nonsense forum more than any other place.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Seaver

You honestly bought that? A piece of leather would never stop a sword that could cut someone from their shoulder to the groin (hardened saber could easily do that). It was to keep the head straight so they dont screw up the aiming on the muskets.

Charlatan

And there folks is the crux of the disagreement.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

Do we have examples of government intervention improving efficiency?

It is results that are important, not intentions.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

maximusveritas

Heh, it looks like Fox News is getting into this debate:

Some people just can't live unless they have someone to hate.

silent_jay

Great FoxNews, I guess that old windbag O'reilly will soon be chiming in with his usual hot air, oh well its only Fox not like people take them seriously. Except of course for the hardcore neo-cons.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Charlatan

See post 65. Results.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Elphaba

Charlatan, to see an amusing article revived and have it create this sort of typical attack response today, tells me that it is time to spend my time elsewhere. Canada Forum, perhaps.

Ustwo

Charlatan if you think that has ANYTHING to do with your national health care system, I have bridges to sell you. You seem like an intelligent man, perhaps you can think of reasons for the descrepancy beyond health care?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

j8ear

Why is a healthy disagreement with interesting and thought provoking discussion and debate a "typical attack response" in your world?

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

j8ear

You know I mentioned it in an earlier post as well, but it was overlooked. Mine wasn't such a pointed challenge, though. Soooo, nicely done ustwo, ** you contemptible hypocrite you **

-bear

**I just really wanted to repeat your awesome sig line in some way or another**

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Locobot

Tell us oh great ustwo wherein lies the discrepancy?

[ducks to avoid the racist BS that is about to be flying around here]

And if you're going to quote me in your sig. at least give me credit so I can get even more fanmail.

Ustwo

Racist BS eh? You really arn't worth responding to.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Seaver

So acknowledging that Blacks and Mexicans are much more likely than any other race to live without healthcare is rascism?

Wow, Political Correctness has gone a bit far now.

feelgood

That's Quebec issue, frankly, I really don't give a living shit about the french bitches.

Although, in Alberta, private health care is quickly becoming a huge debate and our premier has his mind set, he wants private health care. So, what does that mean? It means us Albertans are gonna get a choice between public or private health care. Eventually, other provinces are going to follow suit, heck, even some people in Quebec thinks there oughta be a choice. Everybody always had a choice, either they stick to the public system or head to the states for another choice. Lots of Canadian did that, when they realized that the public system sucks, they brought a plane ticket and went to a hospital in the states. That's a choice, you don't see the government saying that you can't do that do you?

Well, voice your complaint on Jan 23, the day we have our Federal Elections. If you don't vote, don't bother saying that the health care system sucks. Either that, or you can move to Alberta when private health care is becoming a reality

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Locobot

Further inability to respond noted. Or was I wrong? Were you going to take a different perspective? As is I'm left to believe you were about to spout some seriously racist BS.

Yes, that is real life actual racism. You are correct Seaver, but it has nothing to do with political correctness. Why doesn't that inequity exist in Canada? Surely the stats would equate proportionally, oh wait, shucks I almost forgot their system is vastly superior and doesn't leave millions of people in a healthcare lurch.

The argument that Seaver and ustwo(maybe) are presenting here is that the reason Canadians on average live longer, have lower infant mortality, and pay much less for their healtcare is that brown and black-skinned people "live without healthcare." I can't wait to hear the reasons these sages supply for why it is these people mysteriously live without medical coverage. Why would they do that?

Leto

ya there is some of that... hopefully it was an accidental or jesting post

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Charlatan

I guess I'm not that intelligent.

Why don't you spell it out for me.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

The way I see it, this vaunted healthcare tradition that Canadians are so proud of is really just a recent thing. I was born before the advent of the medicare system. My parents did ok. But we certainly are better off with the security that the insurance buys us.

I recall my mom saying that she got NO maternity leave. After I was born, she was back to work the next day. Granted, since she was a nurse at Kingston General, all that meant was that they gave her the staff rotations to schedule from her bed.

According to the literature, Medicare was pioneered by Tommy Douglas' (*) gov't in Saskatchewan in 1961, and finally adopted nationally by Canada in 1968 (one year after the Centennial!)

So we have only had it for a little over one generation and yet it has become so inextricably linked with our identity. Imagine the hew and cry if Hockey Night In Canada was threatened... (oh ya, it was gone all last year... )

As comfortable as we are in our protected existance, I see it as a temporary situation, which sadly is being eroded through the movement to private healthcare again. It's analogous to the phase that we as a society went through when public utilities were brought under government control for the good of all, back at the turn of the 19th century, only to be de-regulated 100 years later. Now we are back at profit centre power supply, and we are all paying more.

(*) Tommy was the father of actress Shirley Douglas, and is Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather: see a description of the history of public health care here is a decent link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28Canada%29

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Ustwo

Come now, you are not even trying, think of it as an academic exercise. What else might affect ones life expectancy beyond the ability to access health care? You can't be drawing a blank here.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Charlatan

Nuclear waste in New Mexico?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

j8ear

So filled with tolerance and class this is. It's a Quebec issue decided by the federal government, with effects being seen throughout Canada, as your followup paragraph concerning Alberta demonstrates. Of course a booming private health insurance issue in Alberta is also a pretty good indicator that "NO ONE IS USING IT."

Not since the Supreme Court decision....on this issue anyway.

That is a good start. Now in addition maybe we can examine things like lifestyle, diet, exercise, work environment, pollution levels, crime rates, population concentrations, water and air qualities, heredity and ethnic mixing and climate. I suspect you might find something in one of those which could also be significantly responsible for the overall health of Canadians. Particularly diet and exercise. You knew that though right?

-bear


-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

BigBen

Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare,Canada and Healthcare.

Fuck me this is a boring subject. There are a thousand things to worry about with the election coming down the pipe.

How about other Canada / US policies,

Like our Softwood lumber tarrifs?
Like our combined energy strategy?
Like BSC and the transport of live cattle?
Like Bill C-38 and the decriminalization of marijuana?
Like the US ambassador telling the politicians to keep Canada / US relations out of the election politics?

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Charlatan

Oh I know! It's the cold weather... it preserves us better... I knew this cold weather was good for something.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

Ya. dammit.

and what about Bill C-38? is it such a big deal? apparantly. I heard that the growing/selling of marijuana is BC's largest industry. funny how recreation in this country can be such a business.

I heard that the US is bringing in police (FBI ) to arrest Canadians IN CANADA because they may be selling paraphenalia or supporting pot consumption. This with the will complicity of the RCMP. Honestly, the more I hear about how the RCMP rolls over for the FBI or CIA, the more I get embarrassed about what is supposed to be a source of national pride.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

roachboy

huh---i have to say that i do not understand the direction this thread has taken.
it seems that any mention of canada is the functional equivalent of waving a red flag before some elements of the far far right in here.
seeing the flag apparently triggers some lizard brain activity, which in turn generates sequences of conservative cliches about the evils of any health care system that does not repeat the barbaric logic of the american.
it happens every time a thread like this appears.
big ben is right about it, and was in the previous thread when it, too, reached a point of total intellectual disintegration thanks to these same folk.

just for future reference, does this kind of behaviour mean that canadian politics or questions that involve canada cannot be posed in this forum?
or does anyone who makes such a thread have to look forward to the thick layer of american conservative idiocy on health care becoming the topic?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Charlatan

The only real thing preventing the legalization (or at least the deciminalization) of pot is the US. God forbid we should exercise our rights to make laws in our own nation.

As for the FBI arresting Canadians in Canada... I'm not surprised.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

j8ear

Now that would give a whole new meaning to a "soft-wood" lumber issue. One I could really get involve in. They didn't call me the "lumber jack" in university before I dropped out because I was chopping down trees...

Seriously though I'm really interested in talking about the soft wood lumber issue. It seems Canada has enacted france like subsidies for this industry, particularly in BC, artificially reducing the costs involved in bringing the product to market....and thereby putting US soft wood lumber producers at a huge disadvantage. The US inturn imposed exhorbinant tarrifs on Canadian soft wood imports to level the playing field.

I know most Americans don't give a shit about the issue, but Canadians love to make a big stink about it. I wonder why that is? Both countries are protectionist for local industries, which imho is always a bad idea, but that is beside the point.

So what's the contention? Do Canadians think it is reasonable to subsidize an internal industry and unreasonable for a trading partner to do the same? Do as we say not as we do kind of mentality? And at the same time, propogandize and demonize the trading partner for election purposes.

I am personally against all subsidies. Dying industries need to die, not be propped up. Governments have never solved a thing with protectionism, except for maybe a few votes.

So can we all agree, to leave Ottawa and DC out of the soft wood lumber business and let the free markets handle things? May the best man, with the finest lumber at the best prices, and the most sustainable cutting policies prevail?

What say you?

CANADA STILL ROCKS

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Charlatan

Roachboy... it's sort of like Godwin's Law except that as soon as Canadian politics are brought up in a forum populated by conservatives... they bring up the healthcare bugaboo.

Then again, these are the same people who would privatize things like water, electricity, fire departments, police forces and armies... There is nothing the private sector can't do better, baby! Let's do away with democracy all together (it's such an inefficient system after all - who needs all that pesky voting when they can just tell us what to do).

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigBen

Don't doubt it for a second;

Our law enforcement is against de-criminalization! Ask why, and a very rational explanation ensues:

Cops deal with bad guys. Bad guys almost always have drugs on them. Forget the fact that the simple act of drug posession is illegal for the moment...

If you are running guns, robbing people, all that jazz, you probably have some swag on you.

The cops therefore see drugs surrounding all different kinds of crime, and put two and two together. Now, the fact that the vast majority of criminals also were wearing shoes does not criminalize footwear in the cops eyes; they are also wearing shoes. Society has put alot of time and effort to perpetuate the criminal myth surrounding marijuana, so much so that science has not been allowed to study the drug and its effects, due to law enforcement.

Cops aren't stupid. They are just connecting two related pieces of the environment (drugs and crime) and making a logical step of causation. Personally, I think they are wrong.

I think that the decriminaliztion of marijuana is a positive step for our society, and I will enjoy the national pride that it brings. US foreign policy is shitting a diamond, worried that all of the potheads in Canada will invade their 7-11 stores at the border. Seriously, politicians will have to decide on having a relatively open border and trade policy or enforcing their own drug rules. They can't have both.

UNLESS: The US politicians can somehow convince Canada to NOT pass bill C-38, thereby imposing their drug policy on us. That is what has happened.

I read somewhere (I don't know where) that over 60% of BC residents have smoked cannibis in THE PAST YEAR. Those crazy BC boys.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

BigBen

As far as Soft Wood, the WTO (WORLD trade organization) has declared that Canada is in fact NOT SUBSIDIZING the lumber industry! This has been proven in an international court.

What we are doing is not enacting the stumpage fees that our lumberjacks to the south have, in order to increase state tax revenue.

The US knows that it can't compete with the Canadian market, and alot of US jobs (read political interest) are on the line. Therfore, the US SAYS that we are subsidizing our market, and slapping on the tarrifs. Hmmm. Who is right? An international court of law, with tax attorneys and judges, or the US House of Representatives?

And yes, when you guys build up a 5 Billion dollar tarrif barrier, that does tend to upset us quiet Canuckistani's.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Charlatan

The Softwood Lumber dispute centres on the belief that the Canadians are subsidizing the Softwood Lumber industry.

What it truly boils down to is stumpage fees - these are the fees that companies must pay to harvest timber from Crown lands (much of the timber that is cut in Canada sits on Crown or Government owned lands). The US sees these fees as being too low and therefore represent a subsidy.

The coalition of US lumber producers have successfully lobbied their government to impose a 27% tariff on imported lumber (I believe that this is split between a dutiy and an anti-dumping tariff). They also feel that the Canadian producers should be forced to do things their way (i.e. purchase timber rights via auction at market prices).

The dispute first went before NAFTA in August 2003... it was determined that there was a Canadian subsidy but said the US tariffs were too high. It ordered the US to review its position. The NAFTA report pointed out that the US had mistakenly calculated its tariff base on US prices rather than Canadian market conditions. It ordered Washington to recalculate. NAFTA rulings are binding and must be put into effect in 60 days.

A couple weeks later, the WTO panel said much the same thing.

The US chose to challenge this with NAFTA and NAFTA once more ruled against the US.

At first the US claimed this solved nothing. More negotiations were needed. Then, finally, in November 2005, they agreed to recalcualte. The tariff was lowered to 10.8%...

The US has also been ordered to refund much of the billions they have collected in tariffs they overcharged.

The US lumber industry has indicated they will likely appeal the decision.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Seaver

Not it's not.

Real life racism is when my High School girlfriend's grandma told me she doesnt like me dating her daughter because I'm white.
Real life racism is being denied a job because of your skin.
Real life racism are those of any color assaulted because of their skin.

Acknoledging a fact is NOT racism. It's NOT racism to understand that blacks and hispanics in this country are far more likely to be arrested than any other race.

Did we say that we have more blacks and hispanics and they all shoot each other without healthcare? THAT would be racism. You'll notice not one person has said that.



And Roachboy chill with your "all conservatives on this thread" thing. It's old. I've not said one thing about healthcare so you're painting with a wide brush. I've never painted you with the same brush as anyone else (except the Bush = Hitler, I admit), so it's getting old when you do it to us.

roachboy

seaver:
did you actually read through the thread?
if you did and you could not distinguish types of argument, then i dont know what to say to you.
in earlier versions of the post i had specifically noted that you were not among those i was talking about--i deleted it for some reason--mea culpa.

on the other hand:
you think reading my responses to this rightwing idiocy is tedious?
try reading posts like ustwo's or bear's over and over and over, seeing these positions demolished over and over only to find them back again and being tucked into threads where they are irrelevant over and over. there is no learning curve. there is no movement.

repetition is not an argument for or against a given position.
it is not even argument.
it is more an index of a kind of quirk shared by those few people who still inhabit the worldview of the american right---and it seems to follow similar patterns no matter who plugs into it so long as they stay at a level that might charitably be called generality---so i assume that this quirk follows from how the discourse works and not from how individuals take it on.
whence the ability to paint with a broad brush as you say.
the same logic repeats, the same bizarre relation to the world other people know about.

take the repeated assertion above that the state introduces irrationality into otherwise rational markets.
this position relies on a whole series of false assumptions--that markets are a kind of nature, that they are seperate not only from the state (but how can that be true if market activity is wholly circumscribed by law?) but constitutes a special zone of social activity in which actors can be assumed to be rational because money--the lifeblood of all metabolisms in conservativeland--is involved....that the state is more irrational than corporations--an argument that ususally reverts to bureacracy as the support for this arbitrary claim---but corporations are also bureaucracies--so that cant be the problem--rather, the problem is that the state is public and is in a position to regulate economic activity and those features are the real issues for these conservatives, not bureaucracy.

the real problem is that these premises are matters of faith--they are not either confirmed or falsified by data about the world--they require no knowledge of either the history of any of the terms (the state, its role, the nature of bureaucracy, etc etc etc) or of the actual object that is purportedly being discussed---in fact they work best in a kind of informational never-neverland where data is prechewed and no critiques of how that prechewing works are admitted---which puts these folk in a child-lilke relation to information---which leaves them no choice but to trust certain sources a priori and to dismiss others a priori. so limbaugh is more serious than the new york times.
there is no space for debate.
no debate is desired.
ustwo, for example, seems to believe that his usage of the phrase "piss poor health care" constitutes a type of empirical data--and it does if the object of discussion is his psychological state--but with reference to the world beyond the confines of his skull, it doesnt. the curious thing is that no matter how often this is pointed out, it doesnt register--another thread, another topic, mention of canada, and off we go again into this tedious little vortex.

and here we are again.
obviously the problem is that i posted something critical of these positions.
yes, that is the problem.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

BigBen

Yes, but what do you think about Softwood Lumber Tarrifs??!!!!

(ben is pleading for a subject change)

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Seaver

Roachboy I apologize for mis-interpretting what you said.

And no, honestly I havent been truely reading the healthcare debate. I dont want it here in the US, but if the Canadians dont like it they can easily change it through a vote.

Honestly I just dont care about political discussions on this board anymore. No one ever changes their mind (I've done it, and I can count on one hand anyone else that has).

Everyone has an answer in their head prior to coming here. Those that hate Bush can never accept the good he's done. Those that love Bush will never admit the wrong he's done. And those of us in the middle are left with headaches cause we admit when he's wrong (after the evidence is in), praise him for when he's right, and left with headaches from everyone screaming in our ear.

roachboy

seaver: i understand the situation you outline, believe me. i am in a version of the same space, though from a position well to the left of yours.
at some points i have learned stuff here---and on a couple matters have altered positions (on gun control, for example, coming to accept how different positions on the matter can be for folk depending on where they live)----but that phase of forum discussion seems to be falling further and further into the past. i dont know if it is a turnover in the composition of the board or if i am just kinda slow and it has always been this way and i only noticed over the summer. it's hard to tell, but the situation in the present is the same either way.

for what it's worth, i dont bother hating bush---i oppose him politically---i oppose everything he stands for--but i dont hate the guy....it is a patronizing characterization of the opposition, to say that it is motivated by "hatred"---it only functions as consolation for the conservative set....this consolation appears to follow from a trivializing of all positions not comensurate with their own. i dont see the point of that move--and i think you see its consequences in places like this.

the things i might be interested in discussing with reference to canada have nothing to do with national health, really--i am not sure they are political even--stuff like the state sponsorship of the arts and its (largely positive from what i have heard of it) effects on music production---the cultural scene in montreal---etc.

backing out of this and off into an altogether too busy day i am.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

j8ear

The way I read it is that the subsidies the Canadian Government provides to the soft wood lumber industry are not sufficiently subsidies to be a concern.

Interesting perspectives though, both of you.

Much to think about.

I also think the outrageous 18plus % tarriff imposed by the US are unreasonable. I think they were recently halved but I'm not certain. Much more to learn about the issue.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Charlatan

Bear... read post 118. I provided a brief history of the dispute which included the November 2005 halving of the tariff.

Now it's just a matter of repatriating the billions in tariff that were "overcharged". How long do you think it will be before we see any of that?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke