Charlatan

Is it just me or has American political debate sunk to the level of school yard name calling and choruses of "yes you did"... "no I didn't", etc.

I singled out Al Franken in the header of this post as it is with him that I've finally lost my belief in the possibility of actual political debate in the mainstream media of America (TV and Radio for the most part).

Al is clearly amusing. He can come up with great counter arguments for all the neo-cons that seem to have edged their way on to Cable News from the whirling cesspool of American Talk Radio...

However, Al is just more of the same. Yes he represents a "liberal" point of view that seems to be lacking in the world of Savage, O'Rielly and their ilk, but he is just as bombastic and idiotic as they are.

I recently heard an interview where Franken went head to head with O'Rielly and as O'Reilly went into his usual, "Just Shut UP!" Franken countered with much the same sort of thing...

These highly charged rants may be "entertaining" to some but they do nothing but detract from what should be an informed and reasoned debate of issues backed up with fact...

It seems that the only place to get informed facts and arguments is print journalism and even that isn't free of the taint of this bottom feeding fringe journalism that seems to have destroyed what is left of informed, rational debate.

Abe Lincoln (an astounding master of the debate) must be rolling in his grave.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Darkblack

I missed that debate they had between the two but I have to say that the liberal side needed someone to come out with "Facts" and dispute the BS flowing from the right. The people, as dumb as most of us are believe what we see on TV. So when the right wing trash talker’s spew their propaganda, which is mostly, lies, people believe it. The fact that around 60% of Americans believes that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 shows that. Yes, politics would be much better without all of them but if the right is going to have their team I think the left should at least have one.

The_Dude

there are extremes on both sides.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Darkblack

I wish I could find some more on the liberal side. The only one we have that is "extreme" is Michael Moore. I do not consider Franken extreme.

Maybe I am just not looking in the right places. hehe

Charlatan

That's not good enough...

These extremes and fringe elements should be just that... on the fringes. What idiot gave these people the keys to our Journalistic cars?

The carry the analogy further... I just don't think there is a big enough tow-truck to pull debate out of the swamp they've driven the car into...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

lurkette

I agree with you that both sides are guilty of disinformation, blowhardism, etc., but to be fair Franken is a commedian, and doesn't really have any obligation per se to live up to any kind of standards, IMHO (although it would be nice). The people he's attacking are all (I think) journalists or politicians, who are held (rightly so) to a higher standard of conduct. Or should be.

But yeah, it would be nice if there were any way to find common ground instead of just slinging mud at each other. But when the guys on the other side refuse to play nice, does it pay to take the high road?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

wwcd101

Al Franken is trying to be funny (I think). Bill O'Reilly is not. This fact means something, but what I'm not sure.

Franken should debate PJ O'roarke (who I love) not O'Reilly.

Either way politics is definitely not funny. Fewer politicians would better for all of us. Less government is better.

Thanks for listening.

2wolves

You're seeing what the media terms "good" TV. Rational, thoughtful discussion does not make "good" TV. Jerry Springer exposed the level of discouse that a large number of Americans can get and the giant info-tainment industry is only too happy to keep shoveling.

Enjoy.

2Wolves

SkanK0r

Yea, that's really the difference - Al Franken does it on PURPOSE. If you read his book, all the times he uses those kind of tactics it's only to show how stupid it is.

That doesn't excuse his partisanism. He does the same thing the Republicans do in the sense that he never seems to call HIS party (in his case, Democrats) on any of the things he calls the Republicans on. But you really can't call him on his delivery - if you read his book, I assure you, his candid moments are in the name of satire.

mml

We gave them the keys. We all watch this stuff and ignore credible, intelligent debates that occur on shows like the NewsHour and Charlie Rose.

__________________
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

lurkette

Thank god, someone else who appreciates public TV. I always want to watch NewsHour and Ratbastid says "but it's so boring." To which I reply, "that's the point!!!"

If I want to be entertained, I'll go to a movie.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Charlatan

Amen sister!

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

smooth

Your point is understood but I doubt Lincoln is rolling in his grave. This type of discourse has been prevalent even before his presidency.

"Media pundits are clucking their tongues over the negative tone of this year's presidential candidates, noting the rhetorical dust-ups between George W. Bush, John McCain, and Al Gore. But, hey, these guys are wimps in the political name-calling game!

Yes, Bush and Gore are nasty, but they tend to be whiners rather than vipers, and neither one is the least bit creative. If you want someone to snap your political garters; try this verbal retort that Sam Houston gave when his opponent dared criticize him in an 1842 Texas campaign: "You prate about the faults of other men, while the blot of foul unmitigated treason rests upon you, you political wrangler and canting hypocrite whom the waters of Jordan could never cleanse from your political and moral leprosy." Now there's a real Texan . . . not the pale shadow of one offered by George W. "Shrub" Bush!

Or, try the genteel put down that Abraham Lincoln gave to an opponent: "He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know." Don't you wish we had even one candidate who had such a way with words? Let's spin back to old England, when Disraeli and Gladstone were bitter political enemies. Asked to distinguish between a misfortune and a calamity, Disraeli said: "If Gladstone fell into the Thames, that would be a misfortune, and if someone pulled him out, that, I suppose, would be a calamity."

[snip]
--http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=9849


God damn your God damned old hellfired God damned soul to hell. God damn you and God damn your damned family's God damned hellfired God damned soul to hell and Good damnation God damn them and God damn you God damned friends to hell.

Peter Muggins expressing his opinion of the President in a letter to him

Filthy story teller, despot, liar, theif, braggart, buffoon, usurper, monster, ignoramus Abe, old scoundrel, perjurer, swindler, tyrant, field-butcher, land-pirate..

Harpers magzine on Abraham Lincoln

--http://www.insults.net/html/political/abrahamlincoln.html

A slur upon the moral government of the world

John Quincy Adam 1767-1848 on Thomas Jefferson

--http://www.insults.net/html/political/thomasjefferson.html

More political figures' quotes: http://www.insults.net/html/political/

prb

Disraeli was a master of the putdown and especially loved to putdown Gladstone. Another one: Gladstone stood up in Parliament one time and declared that Disraeli "would one day die of venereal disease or on the gallows." Disraeli answered, " I will die of the former if I embrace your mistress and of the latter if I embrace your principles."

It didn't pay to mess with Disraeli.

j8ear

O'Reilly and Franken are both exactly the same thing.

Entertainers. O'reilley is a commentator/editorialist and Franken is a funny commentator/editorialist. Neither is anything more. Franken entertains largely with satire and O'Rielley with hard hitting exposés.

Please do not be confused about this.

This is not political debate nor should it be taken as such.

I agree that political debate has largely flushed itself down the toilet and will take a plummer with a heavy duty indutrial grade snake to retrieve. I am talking here about the 10 democratic presidential hopefuls, past republican presidential hopefuls, and most likely future hopefuls for any political office. I also predict that an industrial snake of such plumming magnitude has yet to be effectively tested...to continue with the anology theme.

It has become nothing of substance, with pure pandering to select constituents with measured and skillfully designed platforms to present to your audience as appropriate to the day or the direction of the wind.

I also agree that the McNeil/Lehrer Newshour and Charlie Rose are top notch journalists, although Charlie has been promoted to commentator and now exclusively interviews people. McNeil is retired now, but the News hour to me will always be the McNeil/Lehrer news hour.

-bear

And that thing between O'reilley and Franken. It was brilliant. "Oh just shut up!" and "If him and I were to dual, I would kill him dead. Shoot him right between the head!" Both attributed to O'Reilley and directed by him to Franken. This after Franken (repeatedly, publically, and in an inappropriate forum, that being a book signing) challenged a false claim that O'Reilley made about the show (Hard Copy) he was 'on' winning an award. In fact the award was bestowed on Hard Copy well after O'Reilley's tenure had ended and involved none of his past contributions.

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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Food Eater Lad

I think anyone that listens to Micheal Moore, Al Franken, Rush Limbaugh, or Ann Coulter get what they deserve. A lopsided view at best, and down right misinformed view at worst.

smooth

lol, Did you watch the exchange?

I did and they weren't at a book signing. They were participating in a discussion panel to explain what they had written in their books and O'Reilly took issue with Franken's assertion in his book.

Ace_of_Lobster

O'Reilly and Franken are worlds apart. Franken presents himself as a Comedian, while O Reilly expects people to take him seriously.
Personally I am enjoying Franken's book, because it allows me to laugh at the right. If i dont laugh at the right every now and again I get very depressed.

__________________
"Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die."
-Patera Silk

SkanK0r

I'm with Ace. You really can't put Franken and O'Reilly in the same camp, because Franken ADMITS to being an entertainer. O'Reilly may distort as much as Franken, but O'Reilly does it under the guise of a "No Spin Zone," which is completely fucking ridiculous. Franken readily admits that he's not being fair - he's attacking Republicans. That's his goal. O'Reilly claims his goal is to inform the American people and give both sides a fair shake. Which is crap.

Charlatan

I agree the BOTH Franken and O'Reilly are entertainers... The problem as indicated here is O'Reilly doesn't make that distinction.

The other issue is the media outlets are passing this Entertainment off as sound political debate. In of it self that isn't a problem. The two big problems are that there is no balance in the commentary and that there is no intergrity in the commentary itself...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

SkanK0r

Good point. Agreed.

eple

So to be a satirist in the US you have to be apolitical?

HELLO AMERICA! BIG NEWS! satirists have been poking fun of the government and politicians in general ever since the first cave-dude drew caricatures of big chief Grog on the cave-wall. Live with it.