popo

I'm not sure if this is the one I was remembering but it says the same thing:

Would the pollees themselves agree to join a Palestinian State when it is established about 78% refuse and 11.5% are ready to do so. The main reasons they note for their agreement are: since I am a Palestinian (61.4%), because of the existence of manifestations of racism against Arabs (24.1%) and because of family members on the other side (10.8%).

Of those who prefer to remain in the State of Israel, almost one-half (48.4%) stated that the reason is that they have become used to living in the State of Israel. 32.5% see a transfer to the Palestinian State as a forfeiture of their homeland and of the brotherhood of the Arab community in Israel. The economic situation plays a role only for 5.1% and the feeling of freedom in Israel as compared to what would be in a Palestinian State 8.3%.

http://friendvillarticles1102.homest...oll111102.html

Note that the 24% who would move to Palestine because of racism in Israel represents just ~3% overall (24% of 12%).

Sun Tzu

this site is among the minority out there that appears neutrally balanced with a concern for humanity as a whole opposed to one group. Thanks for the excellent link.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Food Eater Lad

Not untill Trintiy is no longer a moderator.

PS who are you over there?

Food Eater Lad

I thought Israel didnt retailiate cause they want the money we give them.

Superbelt

I read Israel was on the verge of launching nukes at Iraq during the Gulf War when they started getting hit with Scuds and were afraid of either a nuke getting shot at them or some bio/chem's

popo

Ding Ding Ding! You've answered your own question.

Superbelt

I'll take a guess and say... Slaine.

Ok I cheated, I checked his aim handle.

Food Eater Lad

So the New York Times, the UN and London times, and Jerusalem Times got it wrong?
Here are a list of the polical parties in the Israel Parliment as of May 2003

Parties currently holding parliamentary seats in the Parliament (Knesset):
Labour Party (Mifleget Ha'Avoda)
Labour Party Youth (Ha'Noar Ha'Oved ve-Ha'Lomed)
Likud Party (Mifleget Ha'Likud)
Betar Youth Movement (Joseph Trumpeldor Union / Brit Yosef Trumpeldor)
Meretz Party (Mifleget Ha'Meretz)
Shinui Party (Mifleget Ha'Shinui)
Other parties and associations:
Chabad-Lubavitch Movement
Green Leaf Party (Ale Yarok)
Temple Mount Faithful Movement (Tnu'at Ne'emanei Har-Habait)
State of Judea 1989

I can see all the respresentation of the 17% 10 20% of all the Islamic Arabic people.

popo

No, they were only going to contemplate that route IF one of the missiles launched at them had a nuclear or biological warhead. And even then, they were debating what they should do in that scenario. It wasn't even clearcut that if they received WMD that would launch them as well. It depended on where it hit, how many launched, how many killed, etc. No question that they would respond but not necessarily with WMD.

Israel is not stupid, they realize that a nuclear war is not a good thing.

In any case, if it had happened, Baghdad would've been levelled at the hands of Israel & the US.

Food Eater Lad

Why would anyone want to return to the oppressed nation of Palastine? How about Israelis let Palastines go to work without carrying papers, stay out after curfew, buy land without permission, electe leaders without interference. This poll is like asking if ex cons would like to go back to prison.

Food Eater Lad

I do agree that had Iraq used chemicals on Israel, then Israel should be allowed to respond in kind. Asking anyone to sit still and be nuked, and or Chemical attacked is beyond human endurance.

Food Eater Lad

I should have guessed, no one uses the word owned unless they are children.

popo

Listen, I have no idea where you get your info from because of the two of us, only one is backing up what they say with links.

Here's another:

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0n130

Final Results of Elections to the 16th Knesset (2003)

Votes by party list:

LIST No. of seats No. of votes % of votes

Likud 38 925,279 29.4%
Labor-Meimad 19 455,183 14.5%
Shinui 15 386,535 12.3%
Shas 11 258,879 8.2%
National Union 7 173,973 5.5%
Meretz 6 164,122 5.2%
National Religious Party 6 132,370 4.2%
Torah and Shabbat Judaism 5 135,087 4.3%
Hadash 3 93,819 3.0%
Am Ehad 3 86,808 2.8%
National Democratic Assembly (Balad) 3 71,299 2.3%
Yisrael Ba'aliya 2 67,719 2.2%
United Arab List 2 65,551 2.1%

The bolded ones are the major Arabic parties.

And if you want specific names (since you must not have clicked on the links), here are current Arab members of parliament with their party affiliation:

http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mki...eng.asp?view=1

Notice that it's a direct link to the Knesset.

United Arab List

Abdulmalik Dehamshe
Talab El-Sana

Hadash-Ta`al

Mohammad Barakeh
Issam Makhoul
Ahmad Tibi

Balad

Azmi Bishara
Wasil Taha
Jamal Zahalka


Likud

Majalli Whbee

I might be missing 1 since I know there are 10.

Now, please.

popo

Dude! Read!

"...agree to join a Palestinian State when it is established..."

The poll was asking if they would move to an independant country Palestine that has no Israeli presence.

Food Eater Lad

When it happens, and Palastine is free of Israeli interference, then lets ask again.

Food Eater Lad

Ten people make it fair? Ok cool so by your logic the Republicans are the party of the African American?

popo

Why do I bother?

People, am I crazy or is he purposely trying to not get it?

debaser

The problem is that the Arab population of Israel is not represented proportionaly. Also you have an entire population that is disenfranchised under the convenient heading of being in an "occupied territory".

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popo

They are represented proprtionally. They make up 17% of the population and have 8% of the parliament. As shown in the links I gave, many Israeli Arabs vote outside one of the big 3 Arab parties. You do not need 17% of parliament to be Arab in order to say that they have a voice. Just like you do not need the US Congress to be 14% African American and 13% Latino and 4% Asian in order to say that they have a voice.

As a reference, the US House of Representatives currently has 37 African Americans (8.5% of the toal), Latinos have 19 Representatives (4%) and Asians have 4 (0.9%). So, we have 3 minority groups that are not represented proportionally in the US House.

Why?

1) not everyone votes along racial lines, just like in Israel
2) not all minorities vote, just like in Israel
3) it is impossible to have minorities represented as 1:1 ratio because of voting patterns. It will never happen in ANY country

Regarding your sencond point, I'm not sure if you're talking about Palestinians in the WB & Gaza or Israeli Arabs. Completely different sides of the coin. Yes, Israeli Arabs often face discrimination but that's life. Minorities everywhere, even in the US complain about it too. "White school districts get more funding than Black districts", etc. But Israeli Arabs have had success in the Israeli Supreme Court where they felt that they'd been wronged. I hope that one day they don't need that protection and that minorities everywhere face no racism but that isn't gonna happen.

But can you imagine if Iraqis or Afghanis made up 17% of the total US population? And now imagine this war going on for 50 years with major terrorist attacks on US soil occuring daily/weekly. Do you not think that the same problems would occur?

The Palestinians in the occupied territories are another story. The sooner they get their own country the better for everyone.

edited to add this link:

http://www.ethnicmajority.com/congress.htm

Food Eater Lad

I guess I imagined this article.


http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...rael.politics/

popo

Hey, Buddy. So not only are you not reading the links I post but you're not reading what I actually write.

In maybe my first post in this thread I refered to the Arab politician who was initially banned from running because:

1) He met with leaders of Hamas
2) He went to Syria and called for continuing Arab struggle against Israel

Imagine a US Rep going to Osama bin Laden and the Taliban and to Saddam calling for their continued struggle against the US oppressor.

Anyways, the Israeli Supreme Court overturned his banning on the grounds of freedom of speach and ran and won a seat in parliament.

How do I know that you don't read what I write? He is listed as a member of Knesset under the Ta'al Party!

I can understand. Life is busy. You don't have time to read all the news, see all the reports. Maybe you have a girlfriend. She finds this stuff boring. Ok.

If you only know 1/5 of the story, just please don't form such staunch decisions about Israel. I fear that this is what most of the world has done in the past decade.

I expect you to be a man and admit it when you are wrong. If I'm going to spend time trying to broaden your horizons, I expect you to at least read what I write.

popo

Yup, that's what I figured.

Taking what you think you knew and going around talking about the fact that Israel is a theocracy because it bans all non-Jewish parties is just ridiculous.

Food Eater Lad

http://www.washington-report.org/bac...8/9801088.html

http://melbimc.nomasters.org/news/20...84_comment.php


http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story811.html


http://www.palestine-un.org/news/jun97_quiet.html


These all show how Israel doent live up to its "democratic" claim.

And still no one showed me how I benifit from 9 billion to Israel.

popo

First of all, here's a definition of "democracy" for you:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference.../d0123400.html

Since you're no longer responding to my posts showing how your previous "facts" are wrong, I'll take that as your admittance.

Now, it really doesn't do much for your cause to pick links from sites like the Washington Report (don't be fooled by the name, it's an Arab magazine funded by the Saudi government, and has two editors (Richard Curtiss and Andrew Killgore) with long links to Holocaust denial groups like the Liberty Lobby. For a glimpse at where it stands on even-handedness, take a look at their list of charities:

http://www.washington-report.org/cha...ions/index.htm

So, you'll excuse me if I ignore an opinion piece written by them, just as I'd expect you to ignore an opinon piece I post from a settler website. Same credibility.

And same goes for the "facts" listed on your site "Palestine Remembered". If they have a need to remember it, it is their own fault. They are fighting now to get what they had but rejected in both 1948 and 1967.

Regarding the new marriage law, it's an extremely controversial one, even in Israel. It was meant as a counter to numerous recent cases where it was found that Palestinians who committed acts of terrorism entered Israel from the West Bank & Gaza by marrying Israeli Arabs and obtaining Israeli citizenship. While this tries to counter that loophole, I am against it and I expect it to be repealed.

And for your last link, it's an old story and it's changed. It seems that although some sites such as "Palestine-UN" are jumping all over it, this is something that is actually based in law founded well before the current uprising. Anyways, the case was heard in the Israeli High Court of Justice and policy changed. The old law said that in order to maintain Jerusalem residency status, you needed to maintain contact with Jerusalem within a 7 year period. As in, if you moved out of Jerusalem for 7 years, you were no longer a resident. The problem was that, it used to go relatively unenforced and was now being enforced more strictly.

Here's an article on the court case:

High Court orders review of Arab residency cancellations in Jerusalem
http://www-origin.jpost.com/com/Arch...Article-7.html

And here's the change in policy:

East Jerusalemites will not be stripped of Permanent Residency even after 7 years
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0fvz0

And now about the $9 billion. First of all, it's $2.7/year and 2/3 of it is military, which as you may expect MUST be spent on US technology (ie purchasing equipment from Raytheon, etc). As well, the US recieves Israeli intelligence & technology pretty much whenever they want. In these post 9/11 times, Israeli intelligence is something you may want to keep.

And if you wnt another thing you get out of it, see your post on 09-17-2003 12:06 PM. We've been through this.

Food Eater Lad

They rejected? If you were kicked out of your home, would you settle for anything less than getting your home back?

Food Eater Lad

PS. No one explained to my the benifits I am receiving from all this aid to Israel.

popo

I'd say that I expect you to know enough about the history that you wouldn't say such a statement but looking at the websites where you get your info from, I can't really expect that.

It's too bad. Read info from one side and one side is all you will know.

The 1948 borders were specifically drawn to have a majority of Jews in Israel and a majority of Palestinians in Palestine.

In 1967, after Israel won the WB & Gaza it offered it back in exchange for peace. There were no settlements. Take a guess as to whether that offer was accepted or not.

popo

You're boring.

I'm all up for trying to clarify the misinformation you get from your one-sided Palestinian websites but I feel like I'm debating with a 12 year old here.

seretogis

Lower interest rates?

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Food Eater Lad

Except for the fact that 800,000 palastinians were forced out. Those "majority of jews" had to push out Palastinians that were living there before hand. And they want their homes back. This is why there will never be peace. Israelis think that they were allowed to push out people without them getting pissed off.

Food Eater Lad

Nice explaination. I figured there was none.

popo

Here we go again.

The 800,00 refugees were a result of the war, they did not exist before 1948. The war began AFTER the borders were drawn. Go read up on it.

Food Eater Lad

THey did not exist before 1948? LOL and you are accusing me of being one sided? WTF.... Who lived in that area in 1946, 1944, no one? Tumble weeds?

Mojo_PeiPei

F.E.L. I think you misread what Popo said... THERE WERE NO REFUGEES BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR IN 1948. The refugee's were a result of that war, infact many left of their own accord after Israel mopped the floor with the invading Arab and Palestinian armies.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Food Eater Lad

And he is ignoring that when the future Israelis came to Israel, they had to kick out the people that were already living there. There were over 800,000 people that had to be forcebly moved . And that is the germ root of the problems. Before they were kicked out, Jews and Muslims lived in Palastine without much trouble.

Mojo_PeiPei

What alternate reality is this you are speaking of? Before the partition there was fighting, it got only worse after the Declaration of Israel as a state.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

seretogis

<insert twilight-zone theme>

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Food Eater Lad

Fighting by whom? The people being forced out against the people forcing them out?

Mojo_PeiPei

No by the people who were fighting a war for their survival and then took the initiative once they had the advantage.

Israel in 1948:

"We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building-up of the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and representation in all its ... institutions.
"We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and goodwill, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land."

- David Ben-Gurion in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, May 14, 1948
---------
According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

- Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East analyst & commentator
---------------
"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."

- David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.

-------
Now I am not going to be so naive as to admit that none of the refugee problem is Israels. But the fact of the matter was that the Invading Arab armies persuaded the "Palestinians" to leave only temporarily until they could stomp out the "Jewish" problem. Ofcourse its kinda tough to keep up to your word when you get your ass handed to you in 5 different conflicts.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Food Eater Lad

And again, you are ignoring the fact that 780,000 people were displaced in the formation of the nation of israel.

You ignored this three times when I asked. Was the area of Israel empty when the future israelis showed up? What happened to the natives? They were forced out. Do you blame Indians for fighting the Americans?

Again, why have you neglected to answer me about The English's promise to give the people in the levant a homeland called Palastine? Why do you honor the English claim to Israel and not the claim to Palastine?
Why did you not denouce the Israel terrorism and Assassination as commited bey Began and his people in the fifties?
Why do you take the erronious stance that the natives of a people have no claim to a land? I am not talking about Saudi Arabia or any other country. I am talking about people that have lived in Palastine since Roman rule? Why do you discount them?
The answer to all my questions is that you dont care. To you, god has given Israel to Israelis. This is an unsuportable claim. This is a scary claim. This claim has as much vallidity to it as any other religous claim. Why is this claim to be taked seriously, but all other claims to be ignored?
Why did you not talk about the Islamic Claim that THEY are the true inheritors of Abraham. This is as valid as the Jewish claim, since neither can be backed up with any viable proof.
The bottom line is that a weathy minority is again pushing around a poor majority.
Also the fact that the average Israeli costs American taxpayers $23,000 is insane. How much does the average Dane cost us? Why am I paying for this religous conflict?
And througout all of this NOT ONE NATIVE TO PALASTINE WAS ASKED WHAT HE THOUGHT. Palastine was not a UN member so how could the UN have voted to give away any land that they didnt have any representatives to give that vote any authority. 780,000 people were forced out at gunpoint. Not one was ever asked, or paid for their land.
Jewish people can not come back to a land that they didnt own. I think the time limit is up after 2000 years dont you? Or does Rome still own France and England? The bottom line is this, invaders came and killed and forced people out. So if I find your address, can I come and kill your family and move into your place? I mean, might makes right, right?



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