What are those wacko's in Cali thinking now... - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 09-06-2003, 12:41 PM

Uhh..

<_<

>_>

Back on topic, smooth, California residents shouldn't be paying anymore in taxes to curb immigration problems than any other American. It is a national issue, NOT just a state issue, and so should be paid for by the federal government through the INS. State-subsidized border patrol units are most likely getting kick-backs from the feds, and/or should in this case.

The gun-trafficking hypothetical aside, giving illegals priveledges that not even all Americans have is a slap in the face to legal immigrants. Deport illegals and let them immigrate legally, as our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers did.

smooth · 09-06-2003, 02:17 PM

I think we really need to examine and address the reasons underlying the flood of Mexican immigrants before we can espouse a blanket deportation policy under the "rule of law." We don't have, for example, a flood of Canadians pouring into the northern states.

Part of my dissertation focuses on the use of law by a dominant social group to maintain social inequality--or, if you prefer, to secure the political and economic (limited resources) benefits for itself. I don't believe that to be a correct application of the law and it ultimately undermines our rational-legal social structure. I brought some of that out when I made the claim that our immigration policies run counter to the two claims that we live and operate within a free market economy and a representative government.

Such internal contradictions are what Marx argued would be the downfall of capitalism because the workers would eventually recognize their exploitation due to logical inconsistencies. You don't have to agree with Marx to see that it behooves us to examine whether laborers do believe this is occurring and what the ramifications of such beliefs, if held, could be.

irseg · 09-06-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zhevek
Problem is, very few Americans will go pick vegetables. Without illegal immigrants picking your food, what would you eat?

Same stuff that I eat now, and that I ate BEFORE the mass illegal immigration from Mexico that really took off 10 or 15 years ago. Food must have magically teleported from farms to supermarkets back then, since it's so obvious no Americans would ever have anything to do with picking vegetables.

irseg · 09-06-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
I brought some of that out when I made the claim that our immigration policies run counter to the two claims that we live and operate within a free market economy and a representative government.

Agreed. In a true free market capitalist scenario, people should be able to immigrate freely. Problem is, we aren't fortunate enough to have that here in America-- it's a combination of capitalism and socialism. Immigrants come here because they can get "free" money, health care, education, and so on--paid for with money stolen from American taxpayers.

The ideal situation would be to ditch all the social programs and open the borders. People who want to come here to work and succeed on their own merits are more than welcome to do so. They are highly desirable. But the idiot freeloaders who just want to get something for nothing will no longer have any incentive to do so because we wouldn't have a nanny state government protecting them at the expense of productive people.

smooth · 09-06-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irseg
Same stuff that I eat now, and that I ate BEFORE the mass illegal immigration from Mexico that really took off 10 or 15 years ago. Food must have magically teleported from farms to supermarkets back then, since it's so obvious no Americans would ever have anything to do with picking vegetables.

I don't doubt that you would cheerily pick vegetables all day in the sun, I just doubt you would do it for pennies on the dollar. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't because we have labor laws that protect citizens.

The Republican party is surprising in its brazen attitude towards immigration. Corporations are fully supportive of lax borders and illegal labor--they benefit enormously. They manage to whip their constituents up over the people taking their jobs while employing those people nonetheless. Then people vote against progressives who consistently argue that if people are here and supplementing our luxurious lifestyles we ought to give them priviledges and meet their basic needs, such as, education and emergency medical services.

If you want to curb illegal people working here go after your party's big corporations that hire them and/or exploit them in their own countries. Crimp the cause instead of trying to eradicate the effect.

smooth · 09-06-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irseg
Agreed. In a true free market capitalist scenario, people should be able to immigrate freely. Problem is, we aren't fortunate enough to have that here in America-- it's a combination of capitalism and socialism. Immigrants come here because they can get "free" money, health care, education, and so on--paid for with money stolen from American taxpayers.

The ideal situation would be to ditch all the social programs and open the borders. People who want to come here to work and succeed on their own merits are more than welcome to do so. They are highly desirable. But the idiot freeloaders who just want to get something for nothing will no longer have any incentive to do so because we wouldn't have a nanny state government protecting them at the expense of productive people.

I heard Bustamante quote the latest research which indicates that illegal immigrants pay more into the tax base than they use. This is an interesting twist on an old rationale. Usually its poor, black 'breeders' that are accused of leeching the system. I posit that lazy immigrants and ethnic minorities is a cultural myth. While conceding that you will find a few examples of abuse such cases are not the dominant drain on our public money.

2wolves · 09-06-2003, 05:37 PM

M.P.P.,

You're a troll who is busy selling bushwa.

Please take your efforts to create a flame fest to a more appropriate venue.

2Wolves

Macheath · 09-06-2003, 05:59 PM

I just read this article and I think it's remarkably relevant to this thread. Sorry it's a bit long, but I really think it's worth posting:

http://www.motherjones.com/commentar...we_540_01.html

Quote:

Cry California

Lost in the divisive clamor of recall politics, something precious is being ground to dust.

By Mike Davis
September 4, 2003

Every candidate in California's dark recall-election comedy should be obliged to answer the question: "Whither Duroville?"

"Duroville" is the California visitors never see and that pundits ignore when they debate the future of the world's sixth largest economy. Officially this ramshackle desert community of 4000 people in the Coachella Valley doesn't even exist. It is a shantytown -- reminiscent of the Okie camps in The Grapes of Wrath -- erected by otherwise homeless farmworkers on land owned by Harvey Duro, a member of the Cahuilla Indian nation.

The Coachella Valley is the prototype of a future -- Beverly Hills meets Tijuana -- that California conservatives seem to dream of creating everywhere. The western side of the Valley, from Palm Springs to La Quinta, is an air-conditioned paradise of gated communities built around artificial lakes and eighteen-hole golf courses. The typical resident is a 65-year-old retired white male in a golf cart. He is a zealous voter who disapproves of taxes, affirmative action, and social services for the immigrants who wait on him.

The east side of the Valley, from Indio to Mecca, is where the resort maids, busboys, pool cleaners, and farmworkers live. There is an artificial mountain built out of 500,000 tons of sludge (solid sewage) trucked in from Los Angeles, but nary a blade of grass. In Duroville the largest body of water is the sewage lagoon and the local playground is a dioxin-contaminated landfill. The typical resident is 18 years-old, speaks Spanish or Mixtec, and works all day in the blast-furnace desert heat. She/he, most likely, is not yet a citizen and therefore ineligible to vote.

Squalor, exploitation and disenfranchisement are not just anomalies of California's agricultural valleys and "factories in the field." There are urban Durovilles as well, like the sprawling tenement district just a few blocks west of downtown Los Angeles. On the gilded coast north of San Diego, an estimated 10,000 immigrant day-laborers and service-workers sleep rough in the wild canyons behind $800,000 tract homes. Throughout the state, hundreds of thousands of immigrant workers live in illegal garage conversions, derelict trailers, even chicken coops.

Economic inequality has soared in the last generation, particularly in the southern half of the state. In the Los Angeles area, for example, the top 20% of the workforce earns twenty-five times more on average than the bottom 20%. Similarly, a third of Los Angeles residents lack medical insurance and must depend on a handful of overcrowded county hospitals whose doctors have recently given chilling testimony about the rising number of needless deaths from shortages of staff and beds.

This Third World California, which Duroville poignantly symbolizes, is no accidental creation. The famous tax revolt of the 1970s was racial politics coded as fiscal populism. As the Latino population soared, white voters -- egged on by rightwing demagogues -- withdrew support from the public sector. California became a bad school state in lockstep with becoming a low wage state. Overcrowded classrooms and dangerous playgrounds are part of a vicious circle with sweatshop jobs and slum housing.

The California labor movement, reinvigorated by a new generation of organizing, has fought to halt creeping "Mississippization" with living wage ordinances, increased school spending, and the closure of tax breaks for the rich. There have been some victories (mainly in funding education), but progressive politics fights uphill against two huge structural obstacles.

The first is the legacy of Proposition 13 itself which requires supermajorities to raise most taxes. The second, and more daunting, is the glacial pace of the enfranchisement of new immigrants. Although Anglos are now a minority of the population, they still constitute 70% of the electorate. Even in 2040, according to the projections of the Public Policy Institute of California, whites (only 35% of the population) will still cast 53% of the votes. If current trends continue, this geriatric white minority will also consume a majority of entitlements and tax resources.

The conservative worldview, of course, inverts these realities. Led by former governor Pete Wilson, Republicans argue that the state has become a dumping ground for shiftless and uncultured beggars from the South. Mexico, as depicted in a notorious Wilson campaign ad ("They're coming!"), is invading Anglo California and imposing huge tax, crime and pollution burdens upon its honest burghers. The true wretched of the earth are long-suffering, overtaxed white guys in their golf carts.

Reason dies screaming in the face of such nonsense, but it is peddled twenty-four hours a day by the pit-bull talk-show hosts who dominate California AM radio and, increasingly, commercial television. White rage is also the steroid that Republican strategists hope will pump up Arnold Schwarzenegger for heavy lifting in the November recall. Liberal commentators have attacked the movie star for his singular lack of articulate positions on decisive issues. But the criticism is unfair.

The Terminator, in fact, has a long history of ideological commitment which, for tactical reasons, his campaign-minders want to downplay. Most striking has been his extensive involvement in the nativist crusades to deny health care and education to undocumented immigrants, and to make English the exclusive official language. The poor boy from the Alpine boondocks was a key endorser of anti-immigrant Proposition 187 in 1994, and, even more sinisterly, a longtime board member of U.S. English, a national organization with notorious ties to men in white hoods.

But it would be a mistake, in any case, to think that Arnie is the actual star of his latest and most lavish film. As all the punters in Sacramento have pointed out, the real title should be: "Return from the Grave: Wilson Part Three." The ex-governor is the specter haunting the recall.

His veteran staff (including George Gorton who ran Boris Yeltsin's reelection) control all the important strings moving Schwarzenegger, while Wilson himself drives a sales campaign which has successfully recruited most of the billionaires in the state. As a result, the inner circle of Schwarzenegger's "populist" crusade looks like a Bohemia Grove toga party: Donald Bren, George Schultz, David Murdock, Warren Buffett, and so on.

Wilson, of course, is an anathema to Latinos, Blacks and the labor movement. Supposedly California had done with his racist divisiveness when voters in 1998 rejected his protégé, attorney general Dan Lungren, and then, last year, when they voted down another wealthy Wilson clone. So who forgot the silver stake?

Now that the rats are on dry ground, it has been easy for many Democrats to dismiss incumbent Gray Davis as a singularly unfortunate choice: a charisma-less robot with an open palm who let the state be pillaged by Enron during the phony energy crisis three years ago.

But again in fairness, Davis exemplifies precisely those qualities -- pro-corporate, politically centrist, and hard law-and-order -- which the Democratic Leadership Council has so long recommended as the salvation of the Democratic Party. Nor is his disintegration unique: just look at the other "moderate" Democrats dead in the starting blocks of the presidential primary.

This is why the labor wing of the California Democrats should have embraced the opportunity of the recall to push forward one of their own. Davis has generally been detested by union activists. Yet the state federation of labor, and almost no one else, remained pathetically loyal to His Grayness and allowed his cunning and unprincipled lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, to run off with the party endorsement.

Bustamante may be preferable to Pete Wilson hiding inside the Trojan horse called Schwarzenegger, but the difference is probably less than most Democratic voters imagine. Some years ago, Bustamante got into a pissing contest with (then governor) Wilson. They were talking about amending state law to allow the execution of minors. When Wilson suggested death sentences for criminals as young as 14, Bustamante responded that he might "with a tear in my eye, cast a vote to execute 'hardened criminals' as young as 13."

The major alternative to child killers is California's Green Party. In last year's gubernatorial election, Green candidate Peter Camejo won 5% of the vote and emboldened thousands of progressives to envision life-after-the-Democrats. Camejo, a veteran of Berkeley in the 60s, retains a fire in his belly and chased around the state playing Michael Moore to Gray Davis's "Roger." He's one of the first Greens to make some impact in unions and amongst Latinos.

Unfortunately much of the media attention that otherwise might have accrued to the Greens has been hijacked by Arianna Huffington, running as an independent. A professional television guest and columnist, formerly married to one of the state's richest Republicans, she's undertaken an unusual journey in the desert of American politics: moving from the far right to the moderate left. Huffington, for example, has been an eloquent and effective critic of the Bush war on terror.

But unlike Camejo, selected by a poll of the Green membership, she is strictly freelancing with the aid of Hollywood money and her privileged access to media. Her populist credibility, moreover, has been diminished by the revelation that, although she owns a $7 million mansion, she has paid virtually no income tax in recent years. The most likely effect of her candidacy, despite promises to coordinate with Camejo, will be to reduce rather than enhance the left-of-the-Democrats vote.

Regardless of the outcome in November, the recall battle has already clarified some of the new terrain of California politics. Republicans, on their side, have gained tremendous confidence in their ability to thwart any future legislative effort toward tax reform or economic justice. Liberal Democrats, on the other, have had their faces rubbed in the moral rot of their party. In Duroville, meanwhile, they look across their sewer lake at the fat life of a rapidly receding California dream.

smooth · 09-06-2003, 08:22 PM

pssst, Macheath, now I know you didn't read the link I posted

Macheath · 09-06-2003, 10:17 PM

True, but I stand by posting the whole content of the article. It needed to be emphasised.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-06-2003, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
M.P.P.,

You're a troll who is busy selling bushwa.

Please take your efforts to create a flame fest to a more appropriate venue.

2Wolves

A troll is someone who scowers the board looking to get into shit that has already started , that is more you. I am the guy that starts the shit.

Lebell · 09-06-2003, 11:44 PM

And if the comments cannot be kept on course and off each other, this thread will be locked.

Lyaec123 · 09-07-2003, 01:56 PM

It's BS man, they shouldn't be here in the first place, they aren't insured, wtf are we giving them DL's for? Just imagine any of you Cali guys, some dude runs a red and rails your brand new $30k car in his beater. Wtf are you going to do? Sure you have uninsured motorist coverage, but that fawker just screwed up 2 weeks of your life waiting for you to get YOUR car back and your car will not ever be the same after an accident no matter how good the body work is. There will ALWAYS be problems down the road. So basically you have the choice of taking a sub par vehicle back or eating the loss of trading up just because some fawker that shouldn't even be in the country, let alone driving, couldn't see a red light. Fawk em. I've heard so many stories that the cops show up, say sorry, nothing we can do, and let the illegal go. Sucks man, glad I don't live in Cali/Arizona where there are peope actually fighting against the border patrol policies that are trying to keep these people out. Sad to see how left wing politicians now are all too happy to give up our rights for the power they get by snagging a new position.

Lyaec123 · 09-07-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
I heard Bustamante quote the latest research which indicates that illegal immigrants pay more into the tax base than they use. This is an interesting twist on an old rationale. Usually its poor, black 'breeders' that are accused of leeching the system. I posit that lazy immigrants and ethnic minorities is a cultural myth. While conceding that you will find a few examples of abuse such cases are not the dominant drain on our public money.

TRUE, but... there are exceptions. What is wasting the tax money is imprisioning the people that A) should not be here, and B) do not pay taxes. At least if we imprision somebody who's paid taxes all their lives, its a little less of a hit, but imprisioning someone to the tune of $30k a year or whatever it costs now who was never supposed to be here in the first place is a gigantic drain. And statistics DO show that a greater number of impoverished people are jailed, so I think its a fair assumption that illegal immigrants, who have very little in the terms of funding, would contribute to a large percentage of this.

Nizzle · 09-07-2003, 04:08 PM

I could just imagine the California citizens picking the grapes here. They'd work for about 10 minutes, take a 45 minute ergonomic break, then strike because they weren't making 6 figures. The backbone of our economy would collapse in less than a week without a cheap labor force.

Zeld2.0 · 09-07-2003, 04:26 PM

Lyaec123: And you know why the impoverished get jailed? Because they are treated like shit by people who say "fuck em we don't need em." Saying fuck em only creates more problems, and keeps em down, and thus they will go to desperate lengths.

hey if everyone had a job and lived at the standard of living, no one would have this shit other than the lunatics.

its too bad everyone loves to take the hard-line against them - considering they basically form the base of the economy

and they have the privilge to drive or get an ID if they live here and work here - the entire car thing is bullshit

you know how many citizens get into accidents? most immigrants can't even afford cars nor do they communte daily in cars and its wrong to assume they are automatically shitty drivers

guess what, many a rich citizen can be just as bad

its just that those who can pay it off don't get on the news

its too bad people still have nativist views - too many people don't learn their history

ever wonder where your forefathers came from and what htey did? i betcha many of us here have forefathers that came here penniless and had to work in the shittiest of conditions (12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for less than $10) - tsk tsk too bad

seretogis · 09-07-2003, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nizzle
I could just imagine the California citizens picking the grapes here. They'd work for about 10 minutes, take a 45 minute ergonomic break, then strike because they weren't making 6 figures. The backbone of our economy would collapse in less than a week without a cheap labor force.

Nice attempt to legitimize exploitation of foreign workers. What would really happen, is that a bunch of people paid minimum wage would do it, and we would just pay three times as much for grapes.

Nizzle · 09-07-2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Nice attempt to legitimize exploitation of foreign workers. What would really happen, is that a bunch of people paid minimum wage would do it, and we would just pay three times as much for grapes.

Only someone from Minnesota (and not California, such as myself) would fail to catch the sarcasm in my previous statement.

Zeld2.0 · 09-07-2003, 09:13 PM

hehe

its funny because i was just shopping and people were like "omg this is hard work need a rest" - whoa whoa whoa lol

mml · 09-07-2003, 09:40 PM

Just so everyone can get some perspective, the same issue is being considered in Arizona, and the last time I checked, AZ was not what one would call a liberal bastion. The home of Barry Goldwater, Justices Renquist and O'Connor and John McCain is also a border state that has to deal with the reality of illegal immigration. In AZ the concept is that a significant number of accidents involve illegals and the hope is that if they learn our rules of the road, it will decrease accidents. I can't say I am convinced, but it really is not just a "liberal California" issue.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-07-2003, 10:47 PM

This is an interesting read on the issue http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...all/index.html

Quote:

Davis appeared at Sunday's Mexican Independence Day parade in predominantly Hispanic East Los Angeles, where he touted his signing of a controversial bill that would allow illegal immigrants to obtain drivers' licenses. Schwarzenegger has said he would push to repeal the measure.

This just goes to prove my point that the only reason this bill is up in Cali again is so Davis can save his ass in regards to Prop. 54. Does anyone else get the feeling he is trying to cater to the latino vote, I mean honestly he has already voted the same bill down twice (bill's were almost the same only they had something about bio-identification in them I believe).

Politics as usual...

09-06-2003, 12:41 PM	#41 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Uhh.. <_< >_> Back on topic, smooth, California residents shouldn't be paying anymore in taxes to curb immigration problems than any other American. It is a national issue, NOT just a state issue, and so should be paid for by the federal government through the INS. State-subsidized border patrol units are most likely getting kick-backs from the feds, and/or should in this case. The gun-trafficking hypothetical aside, giving illegals priveledges that not even all Americans have is a slap in the face to legal immigrants. Deport illegals and let them immigrate legally, as our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers did. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

09-06-2003, 02:17 PM	#42 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I think we really need to examine and address the reasons underlying the flood of Mexican immigrants before we can espouse a blanket deportation policy under the "rule of law." We don't have, for example, a flood of Canadians pouring into the northern states. Part of my dissertation focuses on the use of law by a dominant social group to maintain social inequality--or, if you prefer, to secure the political and economic (limited resources) benefits for itself. I don't believe that to be a correct application of the law and it ultimately undermines our rational-legal social structure. I brought some of that out when I made the claim that our immigration policies run counter to the two claims that we live and operate within a free market economy and a representative government. Such internal contradictions are what Marx argued would be the downfall of capitalism because the workers would eventually recognize their exploitation due to logical inconsistencies. You don't have to agree with Marx to see that it behooves us to examine whether laborers do believe this is occurring and what the ramifications of such beliefs, if held, could be. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

09-06-2003, 08:22 PM	#49 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	pssst, Macheath, now I know you didn't read the link I posted __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

09-06-2003, 11:44 PM	#52 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	And if the comments cannot be kept on course and off each other, this thread will be locked. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-07-2003, 04:08 PM	#55 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	I could just imagine the California citizens picking the grapes here. They'd work for about 10 minutes, take a 45 minute ergonomic break, then strike because they weren't making 6 figures. The backbone of our economy would collapse in less than a week without a cheap labor force. __________________ Nizzle

09-06-2003, 05:37 PM	#47 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	M.P.P., You're a troll who is busy selling bushwa. Please take your efforts to create a flame fest to a more appropriate venue. 2Wolves

09-06-2003, 10:17 PM	#50 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	True, but I stand by posting the whole content of the article. It needed to be emphasised.

09-07-2003, 01:56 PM	#53 (permalink)
Lyaec123 Crazy	It's BS man, they shouldn't be here in the first place, they aren't insured, wtf are we giving them DL's for? Just imagine any of you Cali guys, some dude runs a red and rails your brand new $30k car in his beater. Wtf are you going to do? Sure you have uninsured motorist coverage, but that fawker just screwed up 2 weeks of your life waiting for you to get YOUR car back and your car will not ever be the same after an accident no matter how good the body work is. There will ALWAYS be problems down the road. So basically you have the choice of taking a sub par vehicle back or eating the loss of trading up just because some fawker that shouldn't even be in the country, let alone driving, couldn't see a red light. Fawk em. I've heard so many stories that the cops show up, say sorry, nothing we can do, and let the illegal go. Sucks man, glad I don't live in Cali/Arizona where there are peope actually fighting against the border patrol policies that are trying to keep these people out. Sad to see how left wing politicians now are all too happy to give up our rights for the power they get by snagging a new position.

09-07-2003, 04:26 PM	#56 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Lyaec123: And you know why the impoverished get jailed? Because they are treated like shit by people who say "fuck em we don't need em." Saying fuck em only creates more problems, and keeps em down, and thus they will go to desperate lengths. hey if everyone had a job and lived at the standard of living, no one would have this shit other than the lunatics. its too bad everyone loves to take the hard-line against them - considering they basically form the base of the economy and they have the privilge to drive or get an ID if they live here and work here - the entire car thing is bullshit you know how many citizens get into accidents? most immigrants can't even afford cars nor do they communte daily in cars and its wrong to assume they are automatically shitty drivers guess what, many a rich citizen can be just as bad its just that those who can pay it off don't get on the news its too bad people still have nativist views - too many people don't learn their history ever wonder where your forefathers came from and what htey did? i betcha many of us here have forefathers that came here penniless and had to work in the shittiest of conditions (12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for less than $10) - tsk tsk too bad

09-07-2003, 09:13 PM	#59 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	hehe its funny because i was just shopping and people were like "omg this is hard work need a rest" - whoa whoa whoa lol

09-07-2003, 09:40 PM	#60 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	Just so everyone can get some perspective, the same issue is being considered in Arizona, and the last time I checked, AZ was not what one would call a liberal bastion. The home of Barry Goldwater, Justices Renquist and O'Connor and John McCain is also a border state that has to deal with the reality of illegal immigration. In AZ the concept is that a significant number of accidents involve illegals and the hope is that if they learn our rules of the road, it will decrease accidents. I can't say I am convinced, but it really is not just a "liberal California" issue. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams