JBX

Let's see how the TFP'ers rate compared to the October 7th Gubernatorial elections in California:

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"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

The_Dude

no option to retain gray davis?

I voted buscamente.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

Yo Dood. Bustamente is a racist pile of shit.

I think all of them suck....... If forced to pick I'll take the Terminator.

djtestudo

"Peter Ueberroth - Collusion is legal in politics, right?"

Go U!

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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

The_Dude

so is trent lott and half of the republican party.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

ctembreull

This is seriously beginning to make me tired. I assume you read the article, sixate, so I hope you noticed that the only evidence of so-called "racism" from MEChA (the Latino organization to which Bustamante belonged in college at Fresno State) is this:

Now, let's compare and contrast that statement with this: I think your opinion re: racism is not only highly subjective, but highly suspect. Furthermore, your claims of racism have been thoroughly and totally debunked by many, many sources. Which makes your reliance upon a conservative website financed by Joseph Mellon Scaife (the charming fellow who once called a female reporter a "communist cunt" when asked about his financial support of conservative causes), a man with a known axe to grind against anyone to the left of Attila the Hun, just that much more disturbing.

If you'd like, I'll happily post pointers to the debunking of your so-called evidence of racism. But your argument is not only specious, it is also tremendously hypocritical. And that, as they say, is that.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

mml

I don't(thank god) live in California, but my vote would be no on recall - yes for Bustamante, and let's be real - what either of the two major candidates did in the mid 1970's should really have no bearing on the current election. It seems simple to me that in this time of crisis in California, turning the reins over to someone who has ZERO experience may not be the brightest idea. Arnold may actually be a decent governor, it is just not the time for Califorinia to gamble.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

sixate

I agree with that.

sixate

Post what you like. Just because you want to turn your cheek to some simple facts doesn't mean that I will. And yes, I did read the article. Along with many others. He's a racist piece of shit. You can think that I am because I'd like to see an example made out of the entire Middle East if that's what you're point is. I really don't care. You don't know me or my background to know if I am racist. People who know me would laugh at your ignorance for even thinking something like that.

JBX

...I thought about adding Gray Davis to the poll, but being unable to make the poll two parts, made the assumption that part one happened and Davis was recalled.

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"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

The_Dude

I dont think this election is about which candidate wins, rather on which party wins.

As a liberal, I would have to support the democratic party, regardless of the candidate.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

I really hate when people say that. I hate people who would only vote for one party, and that's exactly why I'll never call myself a Republican. My political views are conservative, but I'll never support every Republican. Most are morons just as most dems are. I don't really like any of the candidates in this. Actually, anyone has to be better than the asshole who's in there now.

The_Dude

this is not a candidate based election; it's purely party based.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

I know what you're saying and I don't like it. That would be like me only supporting Republicans. I don't do that.

smooth

Raises hand for Arianna and for actually being a Californian who can vote in this election.

here's some info on her past:
http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16695

I do have to do some searching, however, because I think Bustamante came from a working past.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

The_Dude

so, your option is to not vote at all? or throw away your vote by casting it for one of those candidates without a chance?

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

Basically, but if you're saying that Arnold doesn't stand a chance you're crazy. For the most part I hate politicians. They all lie and cheat.

Zargix

and steal

ctembreull

My point, I believe, is that the facts aren't so simple.. You see, most of the anti-semitic and racist rhetoric your article refers to comes from a splinter faction of MEChA, called La Voz de Aztlan. That group, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, has a membership of twelve - and Bustamante is not among them. It looks suspiciously to me like you're cherry-picking your facts to support your own preconceived notions. The fact that you elected to provide evidence from a hard-right rag noted for its only nodding acquaintance with the truth and for being funded by an even harder-right zillionaire nutjob is rather telling here.

I assume that you have an alternate interpretation? They're your words. They were offered with ample context attached. Are you telling me here that I've misinterpreted your stance based upon the context in which it was uttered? Hmmm. If that's the case, perhaps you'd be willing to rethink your stance on Bustamante with regard to the context in which it was presented to you.

And you presume to know enough about Cruz Bustamante's background to call him a racist? You're not being very consistent, you know.

I can assure you that the people who know Cruz Bustamante are laughing at you in turn.

Maybe now you see my point. You reacted to my post precisely the way I thought you would, and in so doing exposed the hypocrisy of your stance. I'm still waiting for any real evidence to support your claim that Cruz Bustamante is a racist.

Meanwhile, I'd love to know why you, a drug-free person, choose to support someone who has bragged about using hashish and other drugs.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

The_Dude

I'm not saying that Arnold doesnt have a chance.

This election is not candidate centered (Arnold hasnt readily come out and declared his platform).

It's a fight over which party gets to keep the governor's office.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

I love how people get all pissed off about what I have to say.

Obviously you haven't read everything about Bustamante. You gave me no evidence that he isn't a part of the group that was in the article I posted. I don't take back what I said about the Middle East. It's not an issue about race. It's about terrorism!!!! So don't even say it's an issue about race. Maybe it is for you, not me.

I don't agree with many things that Arnold or any of the other candidates have done. I get pissed when people bash him when most people have done many of the things he has done. BTW, just because someone does drugs doesn't mean that I can't be friends with them. I have many friends who are lazy ass stupid fucking pothead christians. Do you really think that anyone who grew up in the 60's & 70's didn't fuck like rabbits, smoke weed, and take acid? That includes many current politicians.... and weed smoking Clinton. Plus, he was fucking interns while he was the president, and you probably supported him and still do. Arnold was a fucking young high bodybuilder and to say that someone is the same person they were 26 years ago is completely crazy.

ctembreull

What gave you the idea that I'm pissed?

I would posit that it's impossible to read everything there is to read about Bustamante. Therefore your assertion is valueless, as you likely haven't read everything about him either. I will state here: Cruz Bustamante was a member of MEChA. He was not and is not a member of La Voz de Aztlan, MEChA's racist and anti-semitic splinter group. I have yet to see you post any evidence to state that he is part of La Voz. Nor, I think, will you be able to do so.

Now, as to this supposedly racist group:

You can find out more about El Plan de Aztlan at http://www.angelfire.com/sd/mcdsd/ElPlanDeAztlan.html

A few choice excerpts:

There's lots more, but I think I'll let you read it for yourself. The base fact is that there's no racism there. Pride, yes. Anger, yes. Identity, yes. Why is it that you equate these things with racism?

You can read the constitution of MEChA at http://www.brownmecha.org/doc_mnc.html. I note that it makes no mention of exclusion of membership based upon race. As far as MEChA being some sort of hate group or racist organization, one of the leading authorities on that sort of thing is Tolerance, a project of the Southern Poverty Law Center. They don't list MEChA as a racist or hate-mongering organization. A former member of MEChA said, "There were many Mexican gangs in the area, and MEChA counseled to “Get an education. Stay away from gangs. Stay away from drugs. Don’t drink. Be responsible. Make something of yourself."

Now, as far as La Voz de Aztlan, they certainly are a hate organization. All twelve members or so (according to Southern Poverty Law Center) seem to dislike Jews quite strongly. That group had this to say regarding the election: Wow. You'd think that if Bustamante was part of La Voz, they'd have nicer things to say about him.

Instead, they support the same candidate that you do. Hmmm.

There's a lot more out there, too. Would you like me to keep going?


I get it now! You want to kill everyone in the Middle East because they're all terrorists! I understand what you're saying now, sixate, and I have to say that you are one sick person. Please provide proof that all Middle Easterners are terrorists, and that this somehow provides justification for genocide.

Ooooh, a Clinton crack! Funny, isn't it, that Clinton gets dragged out to explain away the peccadilloes of the politicians you do support? I also note for the record that yours is the first invocation of the Clenis™ in this debate.

Now you're contradicting yourself. EVEN IF everything you said about Bustamante is somehow true - and it isn't - then how does this statement not exonerate him for his college-years involvement with MEChA?

You're still being inconsistent.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

sixate

I could pull up many more racist things about the group, but it's late and I need to get to bed so I'll keep it simple.

The motto of MEChA:

"Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada (For the Race, everything. For those outside the Race, nothing)."

Just try and tell me that isn't racist.

I do want many/all Middle Easterners dead!! I could give a shit less if all of them die. I'll tell you why. If they/any Middle Eastern country had the military power of America they would have blown us to bits a long long time ago. An example needs to be made to change the way things are done. I know my way of dealing with it is extreme, but I don't run things so what I say doesn't really matter now does it?

I don't think you get it. I don't support any of these assholes. If I had to vote for one it would be Arnold. The reason I would vote for him is because he is a winner. He succeeds at everything he does. I have stated in many treads, this one included, that I trust no politicians, but as you've been doing, you only see what you want.

Bustamante still supports this fucking group. He still is the same fucking racist that he always has been. I'm sure you'll turn your cheek to that also since you have a habit of only seeing what you want. Good night.

ctembreull

Y'know, that is racist. Unfortunately, it's also a rather poor translation - more akin to what you'd get out of Babelfish than out of an actual Spanish speaker. I'll present for you here the analysis of David Neiwert:

So now you've got that mistranslated meme coming from a lot of people like Michelle Malkin and Joseph Farah, both conservative pundits, and from sites like Conservative Crust and Capitalist magazine. But you don't have it coming from anyone or any site associated with MEChA. You can look for yourself at http://www.brownmecha.org. It's got tons of documents and links and forums and all sorts of resources. If you find it, tell me, 'kay? If you see anything at all that says that Latinos should be promoted at the expense of others, you just shout it right out.

(Edit: modified to correct my own error.)

You can't possibly expect to prove that. I note, however, that the Middle East is composed predominantly of non-Caucasians. And you advocate killing them all simply because you don't like what you think they might do if they ever had power. Go ahead and tell me that's not racist. Then, once I've stopped laughing, tell me how you have any moral authority whatsoever to make claims of racism against Cruz Bustamante, who, by the way, has NEVER been accused of racism in thirty years of dignified public service in California.

Well, now. Isn't this a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black. Fine, you want to play it that way? I'll rely on and paraphrase the work of Ted Barlow here.

Remember David Duke? He was the KKK guy who ran for President a while back. A guy named Mike Foster paid Duke quite a bit of money for his mailing lists. He didn't report this to election officials and was fined for it, but that's beside the point. Mike Foster was George W. Bush's campaign manager in Louisiana for the 2000 election. George W. Bush has never repudiated his ties to Foster. This is, by the way, just an example. I also haven't seen Arnold repudiate his father's Nazism. I haven't seen George W. Bush repudiate his father's business ties with those same Nazis. Schwarzenegger has not repudiated his drug use of so many years ago, nor his blatant homophobia. George W. Bush kicked off his South Carolina campaign at Bob Jones University, which is famous for its ban of interracial dating (since revoked). He also laid a wreath at the tomb of Jefferson Davis (I assume you know who he was). Do you have any comment on that?

Now, the thing is, Cruz Bustamante is a well-regarded public servant, a moderate Democrat, with 30 years of service under his belt. Not until two weeks ago has anyone ever accused him of being a racist. They are doing so now, now that he has passed Schwarzenegger in the polls. The only thing they have to justify that ludicrous position is his thirty-years-past membership to a group that may or may not have ever espoused the ideal they claim it does. And you yourself said that what happened so long ago is in no way indicative of a man's character now. Did you ever think that this entire episode is nothing more than an attempt to make Bustamante say something negative about an organization that has chapters at 300 colleges and universities around the country, in an attempt to distance him from his base?

So now who's got his head in the sand, sixate? You've quoted one article from a blatantly biased source. You've provided no proof of your ridiculous assertions. You can rail about that all you want, but the base fact is that you've been misled by conservatives with an axe to grind.

Sorry, dude, and I mean that honestly. I'm very sorry to have to disabuse you of your notions like this, but on this issue, you're wrong.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

Kadath

You'll never get sixate to admit he's wrong or change his stance. Arguing with him is a waste of your time.

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it's quiet in here

SkanK0r

You know, it's funny that you post that. Are you claiming to be an expert on B's background? So much so that you are qualified to make an assumption about his character?

Ctembreull is right. You're not being consistent. You're shrugging indignance really does nothing more than prove his point - that you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

JcL

I voted for Arnold and I will vote for Arnold in this upcoming election.

The Mecha thing aside, I don't have much faith in Bustamante. He was part of this administration thats been failing the state, perhaps its not his fault to any degree but I certainly don't have any great confidence in his record.

Idealogically I indentify a good deal with Arnold, who remains liberal on social issues and conservative on fiscal... Sounds good to me.

What about Gary Coleman?

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

smooth

I don't know what Arnold's position is on anything, much less fiscal policy. He hasn't said anything and the only thing we know down here has come from either the media or his spokespeople.

I don't understand why he's running as a man of and for the people but he won't come out and talk to us. Arianna is having a free pizza meet and greet tomorrow night. She is very intelligent and actually did pull herself up by the bootstraps.

Arnold didn't come over here as a poor immigrant as the media seems to imply. He was a sponsored body builder.

Both he and Arianna literally rose to the top on their own merits:

"The details of Arianna's young life are not well-documented, but she was born Arianna Stassinopoulos in Greece on July 15, 1950, the elder of two daughters, lived in Athens, and studied comparative religions at age 16 at Shantiniketan University near Calcutta. Her mother, Elli, served in the Greek resistance against the Nazis. But Elli couldn't stomach the then-insurgent Greek Communists either, impressing on Arianna a lifelong mistrust of totalitarian ideologies and urging her to read Greek mythology. Arianna's father, Constantine, edited a resistance newspaper, Paron, was interned in a Nazi concentration camp, and after the war started a raft of publishing enterprises, none of them overly successful. After separating from him, Elli took Arianna, then 16, and her younger sister, Agapi (author of "Conversations with the Goddesses"), to England.

Entering Cambridge on a scholarship, Arianna basically took the place by storm with her good looks and blazing intellect. She studied Keynesian economics at Girton College and earned a masters degree, and at 21 forced herself to confront her heavily accented English by becoming the first foreign-born woman to be the president of the celebrated debating society, the Cambridge Union. One of her tutors was the Maoist economist Joan Robinson. She is remembered there, according to a recent article in the London Telegraph, as sporting around in an Alfa Romeo and literally romancing conservative ideals, dating a young member of Parliament, John Selwyn Gummer, who later became vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party. She later had dinner with Times of London writer Bernard Levin, one of the most influential columnists of the time, and ended up in an eight-year relationship with him."

I wonder how much ideology they actually share but both of us are only guessing until he tells us. She has been writing political columns for years, books, and even debated in campaigns in lieu of her husband. So I know what her issues and stances are.

I looked at Arnolds web page and there isn't much there: basically a donation link and a news article. He promises more to come.

Arianna's page has issues, positions, and past columns she had penned that have her pov in black and white--no equivocation.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

sixate

So you think I'm 100% caucasian? You would be 100% wrong. Again it's all about terrorism for me, dude. If they aren't a terrorist then they are potential terrorists. We don't have the time to figure out who isn't. I am racist, toward terrorists.

I see it differently. I've read enough about the dude to know that he's a racist dick, just as most people are. I like how you throw Bush into it. Do you actually think that I like that fucking idiot!? I like what he's doing in the Middle East, but other than that I can't think of a thing that I do like about him. So say all the negative things you want about Bush because I'll agree with you.

I'm not dodging your entire reply. I only have a few minutes before I have to leave for work. I'll pick this up later.

ctembreull

I can't support or validate that. It's an inherently racist statement. You've just said yourself that you're "racist against terrorists"... and that all middle easterners are either terrorists or potential terrorists. This is not only an intellectually flawed position, but a morally dishonest one. In one breath you claim not to be a racist, but then you say in so many words that you are. How, then, does this track with your condemnation of Cruz Bustamante?

That was a calculated response to your invocation of the Clenis™.

Fair enough. I'll be back this evening. In case you lose track, my point here is that you have no moral authority to condemn Cruz Bustamante on grounds of racism, much less any objective evidence or personal knowledge to make that claim. And, further, that even if you did, that your point about 26 years being enough to purge past sins would by default exonerate Bustamante himself.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

SkanK0r

I dunno dude, I think he's a lost cause. He's not listening to anything you're saying.

sixate

Can you honestly tell me you don't like anything? Of course not. We all hate something and racism is basically hatred. I hate terrorist countries. End of story. I don't give a flying shit what color their skin is. How many fucking times do I have to tell you it's all about terrorists/terrorism and countries who hide and give cash to terrorists, not skin color. Maybe you forgot about all the women and children who cheered about 9/11, but I didn't and I won't. Those kids are potential terrorists and the women will potentially raise terrorists. All I know is their way of life needs to go before mine. Their way of living needs to be changed as quickly and as brutally as possible. The entire Middle East is fucked up and if innocent people have to die to change the way things are done over there then I'm all for it because in the long run it'll be worth it.

I'll give you credit. That makes perfect sense. I'll forget about what Bustamante was into if you don't bring up what Arnold did 26 years ago. That sounds perfectly fair to me. For the record, I don't really care for how either one of them lived their lives 26 years ago.

Can I use something that is only 2 years old?

LINKY



That was just a section of the article. I don't know about you but I've never accidentally said that word. Wouldn't you agree that only racist people who hate blacks say that word? Or maybe it's different where you come from.

Lastly, Arnold is losing almost all support that I once had because he is dodging every issue. He shoulda been more organized than what he is. He's beginning to look just as dumb as everyone else.

Shagg

I caught part of the debate today, and I have to say Tom McClintock came off as the best choice. Very well spoken, didn't dodge questions and was very clear about what he intended to do if he won.

I honestly can't see how Arnold will win unless McClintock backs out and right now I see McClintock moving in on Arnolds numbers. I'm to the point that I hope Arnold fucks up the one debate he plans on attending and puts his support behind McClintock.

JcL

Bustamante was on Fox last week, in an interview with Tony Snow. In it, he was asked if he agreed with the 'supposed' slogan of Mecha. He would not answer the question when asked point blank 3 or 4 times.

Arnold on the other hand has said the 70s were crazy times, and he also says that he lied somewhat in the article in order to hype up body building, as his movie Pumping Iron was coming out soon or something.

Now, I wouldn't hold anything someone did 20 years ago against them - but Bustamante isn't exactly denouncing the slogan in the here and now, in the present. And I can hold that against him.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

Nizzle

So is he more or less racist than O'Reilly?

Just curious.

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Nizzle

omnigod

I do believe i saw Cruz Bustamante say on ABC on NATIONAL TELIVISION that "somtimes there is too much democracy"

Thats just crap!

ctembreull

Specifically, it is hatred directed at a certain ethnic group or groups.

So you advocate wiping out the Middle East - those who are terrorists as well as those who are not? That's not hatred directed at terrorists, that's hatred directed at an ethnic group. To say that they're all either terrorists or will be terrorists is the essence of anti-Arab racism. So you can take your evasions, frankly, and shove them.
So disliking America is terrorist behavior? Are you completely fucking insane? You're advocating genocide on the basis of a broad, sweeping generalization with no real foundation in fact.

"If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way-- the extermination of that people whose father is the devil..." -- Julius Streicher

Eerie similarity, huh?

Sure you can. I knew what you were going to post, actually, as soon as you said that. Oh dear, Cruz slipped up and said "nigger." The problem is that he was intending to use the word "negro" in the name of an early 20th-century labor organization. Oops. That's a pretty bad mistake, innit? Yeah, it looked bad at the time, but Cruz did the honorable and forthright thing. He stepped forward and a) apologized, and b) explained what happened. You can read all about that here, at SFGate (link).. I need hardly remind you that the San Francisco Chronicle is by far a more reliable source for news and information than NewsHax. Mother Jones, a site more in line with NewsCrax, has quite a bit about the issue here (link). So, to recap:

Bustamante, who has an excellent record in affirmative action and excellent relations with the African-American community in California, makes a mistake and then spends the next several weeks apologizing for it. And this somehow makes him a racist? If he hadn't apologized - at length and great political expense, I might add - then you might have a point. But he did everything humanly possible to set the issue aright. Far more than you have done, in fact, on the issue of your own racial opinions.

[i](On edit: long, profanity-laden tirade against sixate removed on reassertion of good judgement. Anyone who wants to know what I was going to say (and it *was* quite witty, if highly offensive, can PM me.)

Bustamante a racist. What the hell next?! It's time for you to face facts and admit that you're dead, flat, fucking wrong.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

HarmlessRabbit

Man, nothing is more fun than watching sixate lose an argument.

Well done, ctembreull! I'm moving on to another thread, nothing more to see here.

Nizzle

ctembreull: gg

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Nizzle

rogue49

Ariana would be cool.

I've always liked her articles, and statements
once she got past that idiotic ex-husband of hers.

She's pretty balanced between Dem & GOP, and very libertarian.
More in line with my way of thinking.