accommodation vs. assimilation - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

glophead · 09-01-2003, 08:20 PM

Does anyone else see a change in the United States from assimilation to accommodation? Back in the old days people who were different, whether they were immigrants or whatever, had to assimilate to fit in the nation. That is where many of the sayings of this country came from, such as "Of many, come one," and the "melting pot." But now it seems as if we are trying to accommodate every need of every different person. I have my own opinions about what this is doing to the United States, but I want to hear what others think.

redravin40 · 09-01-2003, 08:50 PM

Accommodations are very important in the world of people with disabilities.
The assimilation you talk about is not possible without a level playing field.
Only people who have the same opportunities can be 'part' of a society.
A man in a wheelchair will need ramps (an accommodation) in order to do a job that will allow him to be a tax paying citizen (assimilation).
We all have things, some more apparent then others, that make it necessary to have some accommodations.
These come in many forms like language, enlarged print, medications, bus service, curb cuts, etc.
America is a better place for recognizing the need for those accommodations.

chavos · 09-01-2003, 09:09 PM

You really think that its safe to assume that in the old days, that assimilation was THE model of society? Assimiltory pressures, then and now, are balanced by individuality, and sub-cultures. I think the real "problem" is not a sudden upswing in non-assimilated behavior, but a intentional misreading of history that forgets that the past was more like the present than they'd like to admit. You say melting pot? I'd like to talk to you about the vast numbers of ethnic neighborhoods, newspapers, import/export businesses, radio stations, etc....that have served immigrant populations since when they first came over. I'm quite aware that the assimiltory pressure was much more blunt in days past-mostly from industry. But at the same time, that pressure was resisted and met in ways very similar to today. Nor did TV and mass media play so sharp a role in creating the second generation experience, a major uniquely modern assimilation pressure. Just look at the rate of bilingualism in second and third generations...and you'll see all the evidence you need of "melting pot" pressure still at work.

This is classic arguement by nostalgia. The recollection of the past is differnet than a factual represntation of the past.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-01-2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
You really think that its safe to assume that in the old days, that assimilation was THE model of society? Assimiltory pressures, then and now, are balanced by individuality, and sub-cultures. I think the real "problem" is not a sudden upswing in non-assimilated behavior, but a intentional misreading of history that forgets that the past was more like the present than they'd like to admit. You say melting pot? I'd like to talk to you about the vast numbers of ethnic neighborhoods, newspapers, import/export businesses, radio stations, etc....that have served immigrant populations since when they first came over. I'm quite aware that the assimiltory pressure was much more blunt in days past-mostly from industry. But at the same time, that pressure was resisted and met in ways very similar to today. Nor did TV and mass media play so sharp a role in creating the second generation experience, a major uniquely modern assimilation pressure. Just look at the rate of bilingualism in second and third generations...and you'll see all the evidence you need of "melting pot" pressure still at work.

This is classic arguement by nostalgia. The recollection of the past is differnet than a factual represntation of the past.

Your right in some respects. If you were living in the 1800's then yes assimilation was pretty low. But in the 1900th century as the European immigration wound down, their kids (the non-assimilated generation) assimilated. They picked up English yada yada. It really is just a trend, nothing can be done about it, although I will admit that our gov't is bending over backwards to accomdate non-citizens/ethnic immigrants. It's all cyclical.

laconic1 · 09-02-2003, 07:36 AM

It seems that accomodation has definitely taken the place of assimilation. A big player in this is industry, where they previously forced assimilation, now they accomodate immigrants with bilingual signage and the like to get the immigrants business.

omnigod · 09-02-2003, 08:51 AM

I'm not very knowledgable in this area, but i prefer assimilation since im a white guy that wants to be able to eat fast food without speaking spanish.

chavos · 09-02-2003, 11:34 AM

Still, i think it is a fallacy to claim that on the whole, assiliation was uniquely quick or easy for european immigrants. Try taking a look at Bund activity in the US. That was an immigrant aid and cultural preservation group for Germans active right up until 1942. Or look at employment discrimination faced by the Irish until after the civil war. Or look at how long people held on to anti-slavic and southern european sentiments after they finally got used to the Irish. They didn't just "pick up English" either...the numbers of illiterate workers in the nation was astounding...mainly becuase they didn't need to know the language to work here. Now, with a more service oriented economy, language deficiencies are more noticable, since we interact with forgien populations more. Segregated ethnic neighborhoods still exist, but the all immigrant factory is only part of the employment picture. It's a visibility issue...not a new trend towards slower language aquisition. Nor is the government by any means bending over backwards. IIRARA and ADEPA, passed in '96 erffectively made it much easier to deport felon immigrants, released the INS from federal court supervision, and cut the availability of asylum and refugee resettlement. Visa officers in forgien countries are paid for how many applications they deny. Who's bending over for who?

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-02-2003, 12:24 PM

Politicians are bending over for new votes, that's basically all it comes down too.

smooth · 09-02-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
Still, i think it is a fallacy to claim that on the whole, assiliation was uniquely quick or easy for european immigrants. Try taking a look at Bund activity in the US. That was an immigrant aid and cultural preservation group for Germans active right up until 1942. Or look at employment discrimination faced by the Irish until after the civil war. Or look at how long people held on to anti-slavic and southern european sentiments after they finally got used to the Irish. They didn't just "pick up English" either...the numbers of illiterate workers in the nation was astounding...mainly becuase they didn't need to know the language to work here. Now, with a more service oriented economy, language deficiencies are more noticable, since we interact with forgien populations more. Segregated ethnic neighborhoods still exist, but the all immigrant factory is only part of the employment picture. It's a visibility issue...not a new trend towards slower language aquisition. Nor is the government by any means bending over backwards. IIRARA and ADEPA, passed in '96 erffectively made it much easier to deport felon immigrants, released the INS from federal court supervision, and cut the availability of asylum and refugee resettlement. Visa officers in forgien countries are paid for how many applications they deny. Who's bending over for who?

While I wouldn't argue that European immigration was "quick" or "easy," immigrants certainly assimiliated into the the WASP culture quicker and easier than non-European immigrats. Their situation was unique in the sense that they had less physical markers than non-European immigrants and were able to "pass" much more readily.

mml · 09-02-2003, 04:12 PM

The concept of accomodation is not in and of itself bad. This nation was founded and has prospered from encouraging immigration, i.e. accomidating to the needs/desires of immigrants. Over time these immigrants melted into our pot. If you look back at editorials in the 19th and early 20th century, you see the same arguements about certain ethnic groups not fitting in and becoming part of our culture. Accomodation may indeed be more main stream today - but much of that comes from the free market consumerism we thrive upon. Companies now market to specific segments of the population, and if they can make more money by printing menus in Spanish and adding jalapenos to the menu they will do so and should do so. As far as state, local and federal governments accomodating immigrants - I think that it is a combination of a more "P.C." attitude, a more liberal bureaucratic system and a desire of politicians to garner new votes.

09-01-2003, 08:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
glophead Crazy Location: Springfield, VA	accommodation vs. assimilation Does anyone else see a change in the United States from assimilation to accommodation? Back in the old days people who were different, whether they were immigrants or whatever, had to assimilate to fit in the nation. That is where many of the sayings of this country came from, such as "Of many, come one," and the "melting pot." But now it seems as if we are trying to accommodate every need of every different person. I have my own opinions about what this is doing to the United States, but I want to hear what others think.

09-02-2003, 12:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Politicians are bending over for new votes, that's basically all it comes down too. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-02-2003, 04:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	The concept of accomodation is not in and of itself bad. This nation was founded and has prospered from encouraging immigration, i.e. accomidating to the needs/desires of immigrants. Over time these immigrants melted into our pot. If you look back at editorials in the 19th and early 20th century, you see the same arguements about certain ethnic groups not fitting in and becoming part of our culture. Accomodation may indeed be more main stream today - but much of that comes from the free market consumerism we thrive upon. Companies now market to specific segments of the population, and if they can make more money by printing menus in Spanish and adding jalapenos to the menu they will do so and should do so. As far as state, local and federal governments accomodating immigrants - I think that it is a combination of a more "P.C." attitude, a more liberal bureaucratic system and a desire of politicians to garner new votes. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

09-01-2003, 08:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
redravin40 Loser Location: With Jadzia	Accommodations are very important in the world of people with disabilities. The assimilation you talk about is not possible without a level playing field. Only people who have the same opportunities can be 'part' of a society. A man in a wheelchair will need ramps (an accommodation) in order to do a job that will allow him to be a tax paying citizen (assimilation). We all have things, some more apparent then others, that make it necessary to have some accommodations. These come in many forms like language, enlarged print, medications, bus service, curb cuts, etc. America is a better place for recognizing the need for those accommodations.

09-01-2003, 09:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	You really think that its safe to assume that in the old days, that assimilation was THE model of society? Assimiltory pressures, then and now, are balanced by individuality, and sub-cultures. I think the real "problem" is not a sudden upswing in non-assimilated behavior, but a intentional misreading of history that forgets that the past was more like the present than they'd like to admit. You say melting pot? I'd like to talk to you about the vast numbers of ethnic neighborhoods, newspapers, import/export businesses, radio stations, etc....that have served immigrant populations since when they first came over. I'm quite aware that the assimiltory pressure was much more blunt in days past-mostly from industry. But at the same time, that pressure was resisted and met in ways very similar to today. Nor did TV and mass media play so sharp a role in creating the second generation experience, a major uniquely modern assimilation pressure. Just look at the rate of bilingualism in second and third generations...and you'll see all the evidence you need of "melting pot" pressure still at work. This is classic arguement by nostalgia. The recollection of the past is differnet than a factual represntation of the past.

09-02-2003, 07:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
laconic1 Junkie	It seems that accomodation has definitely taken the place of assimilation. A big player in this is industry, where they previously forced assimilation, now they accomodate immigrants with bilingual signage and the like to get the immigrants business.

09-02-2003, 08:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
omnigod Tilted	I'm not very knowledgable in this area, but i prefer assimilation since im a white guy that wants to be able to eat fast food without speaking spanish.

09-02-2003, 11:34 AM	#7 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Still, i think it is a fallacy to claim that on the whole, assiliation was uniquely quick or easy for european immigrants. Try taking a look at Bund activity in the US. That was an immigrant aid and cultural preservation group for Germans active right up until 1942. Or look at employment discrimination faced by the Irish until after the civil war. Or look at how long people held on to anti-slavic and southern european sentiments after they finally got used to the Irish. They didn't just "pick up English" either...the numbers of illiterate workers in the nation was astounding...mainly becuase they didn't need to know the language to work here. Now, with a more service oriented economy, language deficiencies are more noticable, since we interact with forgien populations more. Segregated ethnic neighborhoods still exist, but the all immigrant factory is only part of the employment picture. It's a visibility issue...not a new trend towards slower language aquisition. Nor is the government by any means bending over backwards. IIRARA and ADEPA, passed in '96 erffectively made it much easier to deport felon immigrants, released the INS from federal court supervision, and cut the availability of asylum and refugee resettlement. Visa officers in forgien countries are paid for how many applications they deny. Who's bending over for who?