Latent Anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dimbulb · 08-28-2003, 01:44 PM

Anyway, I was just reading another one of Mojo_PeiPei's rants, specifically the troll 'debating' if liberals feared religion.

One of the points raised issues with the Pope's action or inaction, in the face of the Holocaust.

Well, one of the books I am reading now, is "Hitler's Willing Executioners" by Daniel Goldhagen. The author makes the point that contrary to popular belief,

1) the Germans were NOT ignorant of the genocide.
2) The killings were not confined to the SS. Ordinary citizens and citizen soldiers very willingly participated in the massacre.
3) The killers killed Jews very willingly, and were not coerced, either by the threat of force, or by social pressure. They willingly and very happily killed Jewry.

Yups, basically, the point is that anti-semitism was VERY prevalent in German society even before the rise of the Nazi party, and did not happen overnight. Anti-semitism was not caused by the Nazi Party. The fact that the Nazi's took over, and first removed the controls on anti-semitism, and then actively carried out genocide, probably helped a lot....

One chilling part i just read was that the Party was DISPLEASED when local citizenry, started kicking Jews out of their towns, and beating them up, BEFORE the party had made it official policy.

It's just very disturbing to me, that one of my 'myths' about the Holocaust, was that wrong.

Try to read it if you can. It's rather heavy reading though. I'm still trying to wade through.

Whats my point? not sure if I have one, but any comments and opinions are welcome....

archer2371 · 08-28-2003, 02:05 PM

Well, there were a good many people that were against Anti-Semitism, but they were just too afraid to speak out, so they went along with what Hitler said. There were nations under Nazi Germany rule that refused to kill Jews. Denmark for one refused to let the Jews be taken away, the King ordered that if the Jews wore the Yellow Star of David, then all citizens of Denmark were to wear the Yellow Star of David. Too bad there weren't more non-wimpy ppl like the King of Denmark and it's citizens maybe the Anti-Semitism would have diminished. Peer Pressure is a powerful thing, and can be used in good or bad ways. But those are just examples of what happened after the Nazi Party made Anti-Semitism official policy. Anti-Semitism was prevalent throughout the world, it even occured in America, in Russia too. The policy of appeasment and fear factored greatly into the Holocaust happening and us not knowing about it.

GarthInPittsburgh · 08-28-2003, 03:01 PM

Don't forget Anti-Semitism was all around the world at this point... The U.S. President who led us out of World War II was an anti-semite... The Soviet Union was responsible for many Jewish deaths also...

chavos · 08-28-2003, 04:32 PM

goldhagen makes a good case...but it is NOT the only reputable study of the pyschology of the german people during the Shoah. Christopher Browning makes the case for the role of the Nazis in inducing the extremes of anti-semitic behavior and other unique factors of that historical moment. "Ordinary Men" is written about one of the same units discussed in Goldberg's work...i think it's a worthy counterpoint. The truth...probably somewhere in the middle.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...799903-7416120

XenuHubbard · 08-29-2003, 12:39 AM

The book sounds like if it's using the same arguments that the Nazis did. "Citizens" turn into EVERYBODY.
Making the actions of some the responsibility of EVERYBODY.
And saying there was no social pressure is interesting; What was it then that caused the frenzy? Deductive reasoning?

This is a huge step back.
We've been so busy pointing fingers at the Germans, trying to prove that we are nothing like them, that we've all probably already missed both one and two holocausts.

It is this kind of reasoning that creates Neo-Nazis in Europe.
I think that if the German people is not allowed to become patriots again - proud of what they have today, not of their past - then they will become Nationalists instead.

Anti-semitism was rampant in the Western world at the time, and let's face it - nobody picked up arms against Nazi Germany to protect the Jews. Therefore it is nice to ignore our own history and have a scape goat. Hitler had followers everywhere, not just in Germany.

Four Fingers · 08-29-2003, 04:53 AM

If we assume there is no mystic aspect to anti-semetism, then this teaches us a lot about human nature.

It teaches us that humanitarianism is not inherent in humans. It's just cultural. The same Germans can either become the pacifists they are today, or the militant cruel creatures that they were during the late thirties.

Perhaps humanitarianism is not quite the right name for it, eh? It has nothing to do with us being human. It has everything to do with us living in liberal times.

GarthInPittsburgh · 08-29-2003, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by XenuHubbard
The book sounds like if it's using the same arguments that the Nazis did. "Citizens" turn into EVERYBODY.
Making the actions of some the responsibility of EVERYBODY.
And saying there was no social pressure is interesting; What was it then that caused the frenzy? Deductive reasoning?

This is a huge step back.
We've been so busy pointing fingers at the Germans, trying to prove that we are nothing like them, that we've all probably already missed both one and two holocausts.

It is this kind of reasoning that creates Neo-Nazis in Europe.
I think that if the German people is not allowed to become patriots again - proud of what they have today, not of their past - then they will become Nationalists instead.

Anti-semitism was rampant in the Western world at the time, and let's face it - nobody picked up arms against Nazi Germany to protect the Jews. Therefore it is nice to ignore our own history and have a scape goat. Hitler had followers everywhere, not just in Germany.

Including Henry Ford. Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and vice-versa.... although that was only before World War II. Quite disturbing, if you think about, one of the men regarded as an important, influential, great American by many was a nazi sympathizer.

Macheath · 08-29-2003, 08:13 AM

I think one part of the issue is Nazism, by it's nature, did appeal a great deal to German mythology.

I mean, a lot of us like Star Wars. Imagine if George Bush announced that the DARPA had just created rudimentary lightsabres and we ordinary folk could train to be "Jedi". A few years down the track, the "Sith" start popping up.

I know that's a pretty long bow to draw, but I'm just speculating how we humans can depart so far from "human reason". When you start romanticizing and mythologizing the role of the state, you can get quite a few people to do the kinds of things they've only read about in fairy tales - or science fiction.

Get yourself some storybook bad guys and you can do a hell of a lot, from creating novelty urinal cakes to genocide. Just have a look at how the Jews were depicted in the propaganda of the time.

james t kirk · 08-29-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sladeddd
Including Henry Ford. Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and vice-versa.... although that was only before World War II. Quite disturbing, if you think about, one of the men regarded as an important, influential, great American by many was a nazi sympathizer.

And lest we forget Prescott Bush, grand father of George W Bush who also thought hitler was a great guy.

In fact, he (Prescott Bush) continued to do business with Nazi Germany almost 1 year AFTER pearl harbour.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

Sun Tzu · 08-29-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
And lest we forget Prescott Bush, grand father of George W Bush who also thought hitler was a great guy.

In fact, he (Prescott Bush) continued to do business with Nazi Germany almost 1 year AFTER pearl harbour.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

Thats why they got slammed with trading with the enemy act. Its obviosuly wasnt that big of a hickey though.

Mr. Moe · 08-29-2003, 07:45 PM

Well Anti-Semitism was very, i guess you can say popular at the turn of the century. But not so much as that the average person would go out of his way to kill, hurt, maim whatever jewish person they saw. By the time the holocaust was taking place, many of the willing citizen's involved must have been Hitler Youth, or other groups that were easily brainwashed by the man.

It's not suprising to know that great business leaders had respect for hitler. Facism was a perfect way for people like Ford to make even more money. Go Right Wingers!

dimbulb · 08-29-2003, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Moe
By the time the holocaust was taking place, many of the willing citizen's involved must have been Hitler Youth, or other groups that were easily brainwashed by the man.

hmmm, that exact opposite is what Goldhagen is trying to argue. That the people doing the killing, were not brainwashed.

i figure that this guy won a pulitzer for this, so it must have some merits. Hope to finish reading this sometime soon, but its heavy, and school is starting...grrrrr.... so.... i might have to wait some time before being able to judge his full arguments myself. But it has seem convincing so far...

chavos · 08-29-2003, 08:40 PM

the pulitzer is NOT awarded by historians. Most in the field regard goldhagen as being an extremist...he's got a point...but he doesn't present a very balanced view of the picture.

sexstump · 08-31-2003, 12:59 AM

Many people in the occupied countries took advantage of the nazi invasion to cleanse their towns and villages. Some out of revenge and others to impress their new overlords. Alot of Germans were aware of the deportations and the confiscation of property. I'm sure many noticed the burning synagogs and damaged shops.

08-28-2003, 01:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
dimbulb Riiiiight........	Latent Anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany Anyway, I was just reading another one of Mojo_PeiPei's rants, specifically the troll 'debating' if liberals feared religion. One of the points raised issues with the Pope's action or inaction, in the face of the Holocaust. Well, one of the books I am reading now, is "Hitler's Willing Executioners" by Daniel Goldhagen. The author makes the point that contrary to popular belief, 1) the Germans were NOT ignorant of the genocide. 2) The killings were not confined to the SS. Ordinary citizens and citizen soldiers very willingly participated in the massacre. 3) The killers killed Jews very willingly, and were not coerced, either by the threat of force, or by social pressure. They willingly and very happily killed Jewry. Yups, basically, the point is that anti-semitism was VERY prevalent in German society even before the rise of the Nazi party, and did not happen overnight. Anti-semitism was not caused by the Nazi Party. The fact that the Nazi's took over, and first removed the controls on anti-semitism, and then actively carried out genocide, probably helped a lot.... One chilling part i just read was that the Party was DISPLEASED when local citizenry, started kicking Jews out of their towns, and beating them up, BEFORE the party had made it official policy. It's just very disturbing to me, that one of my 'myths' about the Holocaust, was that wrong. Try to read it if you can. It's rather heavy reading though. I'm still trying to wade through. Whats my point? not sure if I have one, but any comments and opinions are welcome....

08-28-2003, 02:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	Well, there were a good many people that were against Anti-Semitism, but they were just too afraid to speak out, so they went along with what Hitler said. There were nations under Nazi Germany rule that refused to kill Jews. Denmark for one refused to let the Jews be taken away, the King ordered that if the Jews wore the Yellow Star of David, then all citizens of Denmark were to wear the Yellow Star of David. Too bad there weren't more non-wimpy ppl like the King of Denmark and it's citizens maybe the Anti-Semitism would have diminished. Peer Pressure is a powerful thing, and can be used in good or bad ways. But those are just examples of what happened after the Nazi Party made Anti-Semitism official policy. Anti-Semitism was prevalent throughout the world, it even occured in America, in Russia too. The policy of appeasment and fear factored greatly into the Holocaust happening and us not knowing about it. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

08-28-2003, 03:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
GarthInPittsburgh Crazy	Don't forget Anti-Semitism was all around the world at this point... The U.S. President who led us out of World War II was an anti-semite... The Soviet Union was responsible for many Jewish deaths also... __________________ i was going to call 911, but I was downloading a file

08-28-2003, 04:32 PM	#4 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	goldhagen makes a good case...but it is NOT the only reputable study of the pyschology of the german people during the Shoah. Christopher Browning makes the case for the role of the Nazis in inducing the extremes of anti-semitic behavior and other unique factors of that historical moment. "Ordinary Men" is written about one of the same units discussed in Goldberg's work...i think it's a worthy counterpoint. The truth...probably somewhere in the middle. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...799903-7416120 Last edited by chavos; 08-31-2003 at 07:32 AM..

08-29-2003, 12:39 AM	#5 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	The book sounds like if it's using the same arguments that the Nazis did. "Citizens" turn into EVERYBODY. Making the actions of some the responsibility of EVERYBODY. And saying there was no social pressure is interesting; What was it then that caused the frenzy? Deductive reasoning? This is a huge step back. We've been so busy pointing fingers at the Germans, trying to prove that we are nothing like them, that we've all probably already missed both one and two holocausts. It is this kind of reasoning that creates Neo-Nazis in Europe. I think that if the German people is not allowed to become patriots again - proud of what they have today, not of their past - then they will become Nationalists instead. Anti-semitism was rampant in the Western world at the time, and let's face it - nobody picked up arms against Nazi Germany to protect the Jews. Therefore it is nice to ignore our own history and have a scape goat. Hitler had followers everywhere, not just in Germany. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

08-29-2003, 04:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	If we assume there is no mystic aspect to anti-semetism, then this teaches us a lot about human nature. It teaches us that humanitarianism is not inherent in humans. It's just cultural. The same Germans can either become the pacifists they are today, or the militant cruel creatures that they were during the late thirties. Perhaps humanitarianism is not quite the right name for it, eh? It has nothing to do with us being human. It has everything to do with us living in liberal times. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

08-29-2003, 08:13 AM	#8 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I think one part of the issue is Nazism, by it's nature, did appeal a great deal to German mythology. I mean, a lot of us like Star Wars. Imagine if George Bush announced that the DARPA had just created rudimentary lightsabres and we ordinary folk could train to be "Jedi". A few years down the track, the "Sith" start popping up. I know that's a pretty long bow to draw, but I'm just speculating how we humans can depart so far from "human reason". When you start romanticizing and mythologizing the role of the state, you can get quite a few people to do the kinds of things they've only read about in fairy tales - or science fiction. Get yourself some storybook bad guys and you can do a hell of a lot, from creating novelty urinal cakes to genocide. Just have a look at how the Jews were depicted in the propaganda of the time.

08-29-2003, 07:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mr. Moe Loser Location: Oakville, Ontario	Well Anti-Semitism was very, i guess you can say popular at the turn of the century. But not so much as that the average person would go out of his way to kill, hurt, maim whatever jewish person they saw. By the time the holocaust was taking place, many of the willing citizen's involved must have been Hitler Youth, or other groups that were easily brainwashed by the man. It's not suprising to know that great business leaders had respect for hitler. Facism was a perfect way for people like Ford to make even more money. Go Right Wingers!

08-29-2003, 08:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	the pulitzer is NOT awarded by historians. Most in the field regard goldhagen as being an extremist...he's got a point...but he doesn't present a very balanced view of the picture.

08-31-2003, 12:59 AM	#14 (permalink)
sexstump Upright	Many people in the occupied countries took advantage of the nazi invasion to cleanse their towns and villages. Some out of revenge and others to impress their new overlords. Alot of Germans were aware of the deportations and the confiscation of property. I'm sure many noticed the burning synagogs and damaged shops.