Sun Tzu

Ashcroft vs. Pornography

I have just watched a special on Ashcroft’s newest crusade: to shut down hard core pornography. The California based video production company Extreme Associates are their first targets. They have been indicted and face sentences 50 years or more. The subject of whether pornography is good or bad for society is a discussion all in itself.

I’m not saying I agree nor disagree with Erotica, but does anyone see this as the beginning of the First Amendments deterioration? As I watched a representative of Ashcroft’s staff speak; it was though as she was dictating what is appropriate for American to be watching. I felt like punching the screen.

I’m of the mindset (not referring to snuff films, child pornography, or anything similar) if you don’t like; don’t watch it. A prosecuting attorney the came on stating this is what the country wants and he says this is only the beginning.

This leads to another subject regarding conservatives and liberals, but I’ll make that another thread. I like polls because it’s a quick visual reference that seems to be an almost good micro presentation of the macro presentation. Even if you don’t make a statement please vote if you didn’t. Thanks

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Mojo_PeiPei

Censorship is fucked up, but what I never understood was how is pornography protected by the first amendment? Its not press, and its not speech, its fucking, not art, its fucking. Can anyone enlighten me?

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bob Biter

Porn has been both educational and entertaining to me. There are laws regulating its distribution and content that are, in my opinion, working just fine. Humans are sexual beings and need an outlet when they cannot have actual sex, so I saw back off, Ashcroft; SprectreVision simply doesn't cut it.

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A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

Macheath

The only comfort I get from any of this is; at least we know what people like Ashcroft and Coulter want. They want to go BACK to the 1950s, that's their agenda. I'm more wary of guys like Wolfowitz because I just don't have a good idea of what their ultimate goal is, aside from some vague sense of global dominion. You can easily second guess someone like Ashcroft on the other hand by just opening a history book and looking up "McCarthy".

Another source of hope is that it would take a hell of a lot to truly go back to the 1950s culturally. Much more than taking down some random porn company. Perhaps Ashcroft only does this as a kind of pointless romantic gesture to give the wowsers the comforting illusion that the times truly are a changin' back - in exchange for their votes.

Is he serious or is it a token gesture? Who knows for sure. Probably a better idea at the moment to be wary rather than completely panic.

Phaenx

Could someone give a link to the full story? I think I heard about this, and it was a snuff film where a lady was raped and killed. As I remember, the problem was that it was too readily available to children.

Just what I remember though. If he's actually trying to shut down porn, then that's crossing the line.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Locobot

For reference:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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Where's the part about art? Clearly the writers of this document wanted a degree of ambituity, or were at least okay with it. There's not even anything about your right to have a religion or worship, just that the state will not enforce one. There are limits to all forms of expression including pornographic ones. One of the big reasons american-made/bought porno is so boring is the limits placed on content. Checkout european/foreign produced or older american fare for anything but a very few rote postitions/situations. Try looking sometime at the legal codification and registrations that precede all porn sold state-to-state.

The question is whether porn, or a particular level of porn, is morally acceptable to your community, whatever that might be. States choose to enforce anti-porn laws at their discression. In some southern states its damn hard to come by. Ashcroft and his ilk would like it to be damn hard to come by everywhere in the country. I'm old enough to remember when Kentucky was making a fuss about pron traveling through their fair state on the internet.

The truth is though that Ashcroft and the Right don't have a very good sense of America's moral values. I'm convinced of that. If anything our standards on this issue need to be relaxed not enforced.

Johnny Rotten

Art is protected under free speech. What defines "art" is another discussion altogether. "Freedom to express oneself" is an adjunct to free speech--using artistic mediums to say what you want, rather than words.

Sun Tzu

sorry about the link

www.nbc4.tv/news/2392401/detail.html

This really pisses me off. I only saw a little, but this kind of stuff has been out for years. Shit like this will only go as far as Americans let it; thats what Im afraid of. Even if this companies shit is vulgar, these woman are getting paid and consenting. Ashcroft is upset because there's some mild hair pulling, woman dressing up in catholic girls uniforms, etc.

If he dictates this then why not violence in hollywood? I watch shit worse than this on my local news. Im so aggitated that I'll stop typing because just thinking about it is pissing me off.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

prb

I'm just waiting for the inevitable government broadcasts that tell us if we buy or watch porn we are supporting the terrorists.

The_Dude

i saw some clips on tv about the stuff they were doing and it was at about the same level as those than hogtied.com or fuckingmachines.com does (check links board for access).

anyway, this is a guy that waited till he got married and is firmly opposed to anything gay. he wants to be the moral police for us now.

it's not like this material is avaliable free on the net and you have to pay to get the video's (i'm sure they age check).

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Phat Bank

I'd like to thank all the Republican TFPers who voted this Administration in.

"Wow, I hate government and taxes all that, but, heavens to Betsy, it looks like the Republican Party is filled with hypocritical moralistic zealots who don't care about liberty or opportunity at all. Who knew?"

*cough *cough. (raises hand)

Phaenx

I see,

As I understand it, these people are breaking the law. The law is wrong, not those who enforce it. Can I blame Ashcroft for it? Maybe, I don't think he's the root of the problem though. What I'd like is for someone to fix the laws, pornography isn't bad.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Theresa

I don't watch porn nor do I intend to become a porn star so this wouldn't really effect me, other than the fact that I am an American.

If he wants to get rid of porn he should just go to the root of "the problem" and try to impose a law that says paying someone to have sex with someone else is illegal. I don't know too many women that would be a porn star for free. Of course, I don't want to give that bastard any ideas.

I'd like to think porn is art, maybe I'd appreciate it more, but when the acting is horrible I just can't beleive the people on screen are actually fucking because the real sex I have is better than anything I've seen in a porno. Oh well though. They are trying to make a buck, and they are, so who cares. Let them fuck, Ashcroft!!

Oh yeah, we are living in the 50's. They might as well start practicing procedures for what to do in a terrorist attack in our public schools. The fact that a lot of people may think this is a really good idea, and I even kind of do myself, I think, proves we're in the 50's. (It's the whole fear thing.)

** I edited something here, I orinally said, I don't know many people that would be a porn star for free, but thats not true, because I know many men that would**

Aaron0000

Why would anyone want to stop porn?

JcL

Nice post Locobot.


I have no problem with states making pornography illegal (but then again impossible to enforce with the internet I'd think) however I see no reason for the Federal Government to place a ban on it.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

Ogre840

first amendment? not with the patriot act in place...

one big problem with the patriot act was only 1 person (ashcroft i do believe) read it before getting the rest of the assholes to vote on it... oh and wasnt he the author of the damned thing???

anyway... i think porno should be under the first amendment, and trying to stop the porn industry is making a direct attack on that. even limiting the age that you can access porn is screwing with freedom of speach, and really, how many under 18 year olds can get porno anyway?

porno will never stop, and i will do my part to keep it going!

JamesS

As long as pornography depicts concenting adults and is sold to those of age, I don't see why it should be regulated or persecuted.

And, yes, the Patriot Act was passed so quickly that few legislators knew what they were voting for when they did so.

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The tragedy of life is what dies inside a man while he lives.
-- Albert Schweitzer

Zeld2.0

thats why the irony is that a republican is leading the charge to get it repealed / prevent a reneweal or future acts

from what i've seen on what the porn was, its really stuff that you see out there already anyways

but i do like the irony in all this, very funny

i remember back when republicans stood for smaller government, preserving civil liberties, and making americans more independent

this one simply doesn't believe in it

JcL

The democratic party used to be concentrated in the white populace in the South. Things really have changed just in the past 60 years or so for the two parties.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

rogue49

His crusade against this, is only the tip of the iceberg of his repressive policies.

This man is GW's Achiles' Heel,
he better oust him now, because even the GOP is getting nervous about him.

ack32

It's important to remember that Ashcroft lost a senate election to a man that had died in a plane crash several weeks earlier. No-one had posthumously won election to the Senate before.

That could possibly be an indication of how out of touch he is with "normal" people. His crusade against porn, and other misguided ideas such as the draconian "Total Information Awareness" program (http://www.eff.org/Privacy/TIA/20030...oft_letter.php) later renamed to the "Terrorism Information Awareness" program for PR reasons, show how extreme his views are.

I don't know if it counts as censorship or just a humorous happening, but Ashcroft's even taken to cleaning up his image by draping the naked "Spirit of Justice" statue in the Attorney General's Great Hall, to limit the photo opportunities with him overshadowed by a bare breasted female statue... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1788845.stm)

Thagrastay

Pornography is a very (pardon the pun,) slippery concept. Art is another thing altogether. Porn and art are about as similar as fishing and break dancing- the only thing they have in common is the flopping around on the ground.
Consider this for a moment, if you will: from where does morality come? What is the source and thermometer by which morality can be measured? What IS morality?
Our nation is at the mouth of a great ideological vaccuum that is ready to pull us in. We must either concede to the idea of a God, or commence to raping and pillaging because we are left with the concept of "Survival of the fittest".
If consenting adults want to make porn and consenting adults want to view porn, then it is fully permissable under the law. However, we do have laws and age-defined laws in our country. there are Minors and there are Adults. We, as a nation have chosen to differentiate the two and have made it our duty to protect the Minors from anything that may compromise their "Morals". The question, however is how we define "Morals".
This is a conundrum.
McCarthy was proven to be right, by the way. There were communists in high places in the U.S. government. He is vindicated by history.
We are at an ideological impasse, here. Porn and smatterings thereof are inescapable today. It is in our books, magazines, clothing, movies, music, television shows and conversations. It is not a simple matter of "If you don't like it, don't watch it." It is so much more complex than that. To avoid sex and sexuality, adults and children alike must seclude themselves from the society they pay their taxes to to protect them from this.
Where do we draw the line?
As adults, we are free to choose. As children, we are at the mercy and good graces of the adults. Children today are having their choices concerning exposure to this slowly, inexoribly removed from them. This isn't education then, but is instead propaganda. When we remove choice rrom the education cycle, we are left with brain washing.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Arc101

That hasn't been broadcast yet ? I'm surprised. Anyway I always think the people who are against porn or prostitution or whatever are the biggest perverts out there. Ashcroft is probably the sort who enjoys wearing a girls school uniform and being spanked by someone he calls mummy.