Zeld2.0

Just stop trying Mojo. Just stop. You're giving eveyone a headache here.

Everything you say to defend your cause has only been insulting to others here. We all know your stance and know you will not change it. This post can easily be said to have been made to start an argument.

And yes the Pope was known to have largely ignored the atrocities and let them occur, just as America did. The period then was very anti-semitic as to an extent it still is today.

GarthInPittsburgh

It still fucking counts. Supporting someone who is content on wiping out an entire race of people... just because of your political idealology is bullshit.

Mojo_PeiPei

Although I agree with what your saying, (not trying to cause controversy here) I think Hitler was only supported in the early days when he was rising to power.

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GarthInPittsburgh

Hitler's views were well known, though...

ctembreull

He worked behind the scenes with governments such as Hungary and Sweden. Very well, I'll grant you that some Jews were saved as a result of these clandestine actions. This doesn't alter the fact that he remained publicly silent during the Holocaust, when direct action could have saved the lives of so many more. That, in my book, constitutes nothing less than tacit support.

Um, what on earth did Pius XII ever say? That's the whole point: the Catholic Church stood mute. It failed to excommunicate Hitler, ban his book, or even raise its voice and its not-inconsiderable temporal political power in defense of the Jews. This is a documented fact stipulated to in literature both denouncing and supporting Pius XII.

This Rolf Hochhuth?

"A Protestant German playwright, Hochhuth's play, "The Deputy", (1964) aroused a storm of protest due to its condemnation of Pope Pius XII, for his failure to denounce Nazi anti-Jewish policies. The play, which was well documented, concluded that Pope Pius sacrificed morality for short term financial and political gain."

You can agree or disagree with him, but Hochhuth's accusations have stood the test of proof and time. It's a simple fact that Pius XII stood mute, and the Catholic Church with him, during the Holocaust. However many Jews he saved behind-the-scenes, how many more would he have saved had he simply acknowledged what was going on and using the Church's temporal political power to stop it? It's a legitimate question, one to which I've seen no good answers. If taking a stand would have been the moral thing to do, what does that make Pius XII's failure to take a stand?

This is an attempt to bring this thread back to why religion and government should never intertwine. Too often, religion, and Christianity in particular, acts counter-intellectually and does the immoral thing instead of the moral one. Too often, religion, and Christianity in particular, is used to justify the various ways in which men do evil. Too often, religion, and Christianity in general, has blinders that cause it to look the other way when atrocities and other horrifying acts occur. Pius XII is the best example of this, but there are many, many others througout recorded history.

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"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

Mojo_PeiPei

Here is a question. What could the Pope have done? The Vatican was located in Facist Italy conviently close to Hitler. THe Vatican doesn't have a standing army, if the Pope would've spoke up what was to keep Mussilini(sp?) or Hitler from going in and cleaning house?

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The_Dude

you really think the pope would've been killed by mussolini or hitler?

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ctembreull

One of the chief assets of the Catholic Church is its nearly 1 billion members. In 1933, this number was probably less, though how much less, I'm not sure. Even assuming (probably incorrectly) that the number of Catholics in 1933 was 500,000,000 - that's still a whole mess of Catholics, primarily concentrated in Europe and the Americas. All Pius XII had to do was to expose the Holocaust publicly, and appeal to Catholics to take action to stop it. Excommunicating Hitler, who identified himself as a Catholic until the day he took his own life, would have been a good step. Publicly placing his book on its Index of Prohibited Literature would have been a rather interesting step, too. These sorts of actions would have represented a total repudiation of Hitler and his Final Solution. They would also have been simple yet definitive steps - with a word, or a speech, or even a papal encyclical or bull or even a pastoral directive, aggressively and publicly positioning the church against this evil, instead of letting it pass without comment or rancor.

Who's to say if it would have had any concrete, material effect on the number of Jews Hitler killed? That's the sort of calculus of death I'm not interested in. But in non-calculable terms, having the Church stand firmly against one of the worst massacres in human history would have certainly been the right - and moral - thing to do.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

sipsake

Interesting point!

Good thing Jesus remained silent in the face of political and religious animosity or he really would've been in for it...

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docbungle

I am a christian and what scares me about christianity are the acts of murder and violence that have been done in the past "in the name of God" and also all the wackos out there who think believing in God gives them the right to be judge and jury.

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XenuHubbard

Well, Mojo already defended the crusades, and there was a healthy bit of Jew-killing going on there as well.
Remember, they killed Jesus!

What the Pope could have done?
More. So you're saying that a good Christian only speaks up when it's safe? You claim religion to be the basis for morals. Well, if ignoring the holocaust is a valid piece of Christian agenda, I don't want its morals.

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Mojo_PeiPei

The man saved 800,000 lives thats more then any other country or religion can say.

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ctembreull

Um, the U.S. Army and its allies freed, according to estimates, 750,000 Jews from the concentration camps after the fall of Germany. So that claim doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. What I'm really not understanding, though, is why you've got such trouble admitting to Pius XII's crimes. The evidence is right there. One of the worst incidences of genocide occurred right in front of his face, and he said nothing at all. He acted privately, but he made no public comment and refused to use the power of his Church to educate and mobilize the world against Hitler's evil. Was that, do you think, moral?

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

Mojo_PeiPei

Jesus knew he was going to die, death served his purpose. Would you guys really put it past Hitler, a man who killed MILLIONS, to go after Pius in Rome? He HATED Catholics, just look at what he did to the Polish. Anywho, what would he have been able to do??? People knew (in the late 30's) what Hitler was all about, why did the Pope have to spell it out? So I'll go along, lets say Pius would've spoken up then what? The church would get ass fucked cause they are in Facism's backyard, and the Allies still would have to make a push to Germany to free the Jews.

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Xell101

Religion is stupid, it aids the weak or those who do insuffecient thinking find a way of doing things, or find hope were they unable to muster up enough, or how to live amongst other things, your neighbor doesn't know to live but the prophet invariabley shall know.

GarthInPittsburgh

Yeah, but those aren't real Christians, as opposed to Muslim wackos, who show you "just how crazy" they are over there....

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splck

What annoys me about christians is their holier than thou attitude. That they have the moral high ground is idiotic at best. Why can't they understand the separation of church and state? It seems simple enough to me.
I'm SO glad I live in Canada and don't have to put up with most of that bullshit religion entering into politics.
I'm no liberal, and I'm in no way afraid of religious people.

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nice line eh?

Darkblack

Those are not real Muslims either....

lurkette

I know I should just stay safely on the sidelines (I chose the name "lurkette" for a reason, but don't seem to have been able to live up to it) but I can't resist, there's just so much bullshit flying around.

Whether Hitler was supported by the Catholic church, or whether Russia was godless, etc etc etc, are largely irrelevant.

The basic question here (and a valid if originally poorly phrased one) seems to be why liberals tend to bristle at religion.

Mojo, some of your assumptions in your original post are a bit off-base, as a lot of people have already pointed out but that I'll reiterate here.

You say: "why do you harbor so much animosity towards the judeo-christian beliefs."

Well, it depends on WHICH Judeo-Christian beliefs you're talking about. If you're talking about love thy neighbor as thyself, turn the other cheek, walk a mile in his shoes, give him the cloak off your back, then I think a lot of liberals espouse some very Christian beliefs. As has been pointed out, a lot of liberals are themselves Christian. What we object to is the brand of Christianity that pulls out certain beliefs and scriptures and interprets them in a very particular way, and then claims to have The Literal Truth about what God wants us all to do. The problem most liberals have with Christianity, is, as people have said, when these particular (and, usually, particularly narrow) interpretations start to be shoved down our throats through attempted legislation of behavior.

And your assumptions about where this country will go without a particular conservative interpretation of God at the helm are just a bit far-fetched. There's a whole field of study called "ethics" that has nothing to do with religion and that concerns itself with a lot of the issues you bring up - abortion, eugenics, genocide, etc.

And the passage you quote about "when they came for me there was no-one left to speak up" has a lot less to do with religion than it does with championing those who are different from you against the forces of hatred, about not standing back and letting others be abused and eliminated because it doesn't directly affect you. Not a concept you'll find often in public discourse of conservative Christians in this country.

We might turn the question back around and ask "why are conservative/fundamentalist Christians afraid of secular humanism"? If you can come up with reasoned, educated and supportable answers I'd love to discuss it.

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Sun Tzu

Just so I can answer the way I think I want to; and maybe even learn something what is the difference (if any) between Judea-Christianity and Christianity? I've been hearing the first used allot on political talk shows of late.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Alot of the same principles. Basically it really has to do with how Christianity through Jesus expands on Judaism.

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GarthInPittsburgh

I was being sarcastic, thus the roll eyes.

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ctembreull

Hey... I already asked him that.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

Sledge

Conservative Christianity? Yeah, it scares me.

It scares me how people shove aside their conscience to accomodate the teachings of a book written by and for societies centuries and centuries ago.

The Bible was used to defend slavery (Ham's lineage was cursed because of his shameful conduct toward his father, Noah). It was used to keep women from voting and having jobs (Paul's admonishment against allowing women to have positions of power in the church, various verses that tell women to serve their husbands faithfully), it was used to prevent biracial marriage (the Noah thing again), and today it's the single most influential reason why homosexuality is still taboo all over the country.

I used to be a Christian. I knew the Bible inside out; I led worship, I held prayer meetings. Over time I began to realize that I didn't actually LIKE God very much. Then I began to realize that there really weren't any empirical reasons to believe in Him.

Christians are very fond of separating God from the church: "The church is a flawed institution," they say. "The church is human, and humans are sinners." Well, yeah, that keeps God high and dry, but the flawed sinner humans are the ones who are running around making life tough for others. I'm afraid of Christianity because it makes Christians mean, closed-minded, and afraid to think for themselves.

Theresa

The rapture isn't a very nice thing. It's the whole ideal that the world is coming to an end and, literally, come hell or high water only certain people will be saved. Mojo has expressed this belief, or forcast rather, that America is "doomed". We're all doomed, whats with that? I don't like it at all. I can be a great person but if I lie to my anal boss I'm supposed to go repent OR ELSE. I'm more afraid of losing my job.
I feel that some religions breed fear. We've all heard the label "God fearing Christian". I don't want to be afraid and I try to be a happy while not having yet chosen a religion but when you have people always telling you you are doomed it is well, kinda scary. . . but it's more annoying than anything.

But I wonder, is it really an attempt to save? Or is it a scare tactic so that more money can be collected.

When I do choose I know it won't be Christianity. I can't say a lot about the American government right now but I can say that I like secular laws. I like to be skeptically optimistic and I can definately say with confidence that I am not doomed.

I agree with most of the people posting about separation of church and state. About using God as justification for doing crazy things. This is all I felt like I could offer that would be different.

*I edited religion breeds fear to some religions breed fear. . . just trying not to step on too many toes here*

wwcd101

Too often religions, most of them, appear to be telling their followers "don't think" and "do what I say".

I call that scary.

Thanks for listening.

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm not bible bumping here, obviously God isn't going to send some massive plague to annihilate America. I'd say like any Nation we have peaked, once the Liberal influence grows to powerful in any civilization inner turmoil begins to wreak havoc, whether or not you agree with me its your beef.

I would also like to apologize if I did offend anyone, that was not my intention. I know I phrased my question a little harshly, but hey it got all of us thinking and talking, and it wasn't all that uncivil.

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Darkblack

I wont say what I want to say here because I will probably get another warning or possibly banned.

I want to know how liberals are going to wreak havoc to civilization. Liberals want social programs to help people that need help. I think you need to read that bible you are using as a hammer to pound your ideas down peoples throats and see that your Jesus was a socialist. Your religion wants to take from the rich and provide for the poor. That is what your religion is based on. It even says that no rich man will enter heaven. Where that quote is I don't remember. I have not read it in years but it is there.

I think if more bible readers actually followed more of the philosophy behind the bible and less of trying to prove the written word in the bible, we would be better off.

XenuHubbard

Mojo; please specify. Previous examples where liberalism caused turmoil?

Northern Europe is still standing.

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"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

Lebell

I definately agree with this.

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Marius1

Eh? You hint that fear is the only reason why someone would harbor animosity against it. Thats dumb.

I hate parsnips. Don't mean I'm afraid of them.
I hate racists but as a white middle class man they present no danger to me.

I dislike christianty and come to think of it I am afraid of it because its irrational. Irrational people are capeable of the worst attrocities.

2wolves

For a moment let us compare and contrast the Founding Fathers of the United States with King George III. Liberal? Founding Fathers. Conservative? KGIII. Perspective is wonderful, you should try to get some. All men equal? FF. Royalty and privelege? KGIII. Rule of Law? FF. Rule of God give right to throne? KGIII

(you may have sensed a pattern developing....)

If you'd like there are lots more.

2Wolves

-Bush spits

sipsake

Okay...I'm going to make a somewhat insulting generalization and if you don't like it then it's your problem.

Then I'm going to apologize and tell you it wasn't my intention to offend you even though I knew the statement was insulting.

And then I'm going to explain that even if you were offended, hey, don't get angry...it's all in the name of good conversation, and besides I was insulting you in a really really nice way.

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Mr. Moe

"I'm not scared by it, but blah blah blah...". I just think that it should be kept as far away from the government as possible. To much Catholic backing in the government would lead to discrimination against far to many minorities, and it is the governments job to look out for the little guys...well the liberal government at least

Mojo_PeiPei

To much change too fast causes turmoil, the only way America will ever fall is from the inside. Further more if you think that liberal/socialists are compassionate warm-hearted people you have been duped, its all politics, and they buy votes with tax money through broken social programs. It's really easy to be compassionate with someone else's money.

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2wolves

In the politics forum? Shocking.

2Wolves

XenuHubbard

Mojo; you still haven't answered my question. What civilizations have collapsed so far due to liberal agendas?

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The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me.

"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

Mojo_PeiPei

Rome is a perfect example, they became mass hedonists and were of a much different nature then in their early years. I'm not going to say Liberalism was the only thing to bring them down, outside problems like barbarians definetly didn't help.

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chavos

*sigh

What brought down rome is a superbly complex question...and "hedonism" is not the simple answer. Inflation, over expansion, breakdown of army discipline, and the conflict over Christianity all played roles. [sarcasm]So, perhaps we should fear Christianity for what it might to do destroy our civilzation? [/sarcasm]

auswegian

Traditionalist Roman Conservativism destroyed the Roman Republic, because all that Cato and his goons could think to do when confronted with rising opposition was resort to short-sighted knee-jerk reactions. A bit like conservatives today in that respect. And so, what was a reasonably good mixed constitution republic by ancient standards fell to authoritarianism. Wow, the conservative agenda is so much better than liberals.

Conservatives are the ones that bring down civilizations, because they try to stop change and maintain their peaceful little status quo. No, its not going to work in the long term, but since conservatives have short memories they don't notice that they keep losing everything because they try and fight the future.

As for liberals fearing Christianity, blurk. Christianity pisses me off more than it scares me. Keep it as far away from the government as possible. It can't be trusted.

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