Internet use of the term "gay" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

virus · 08-20-2003, 05:37 AM

why is it that the end-all and be-all argument is "you're gay," or "you fag." usenet is particularly guilty of this, and i used to see it here a lot. this bigotry annoys the shit out of me. then again, i'm a new yorker so i have first hand experience that gay is not a particularly nasty thing to be called. oh gee, you just called me muscular with a keen fashion sense.

anyway, i think it's way-too-widely accepted and i'm wondering why people think it is that way.

The_Dude · 08-20-2003, 05:55 AM

it's so widely used that i dont think it actually refers to homosexuality anymore.

Bill O'Rights · 08-20-2003, 06:18 AM

The_Dude may actually have a point there. My New York born and raised wife will say "That's gay" in reference to something silly that she doesn't agree with, or "that's faggy" in reference to something in bad taste. She gets some odd looks in Omaha, though, so she doesn't use those terms much antmore.

Kadath · 08-20-2003, 06:38 AM

I think saying that it no longer refers to homosexuality is trying to defend a practice that has its roots in bigotry and ignorance. To call something "gay" or "faggy" in order to demean it just exposes a person's own prejudice or ignorance.
Other phrases exhibiting this tendency: "To jew someone down" "What a gyp" "That's mighty white of you" "Nigger-rigged" "Welsh on a debt", etc. Think about what you say before you say it and you'll be fine.

Lebell · 08-20-2003, 08:19 AM

I would have to agree with Kadath on this one.

To use those terms shows ignorance of their history and why they first were used in a derogatory fashion.

I personally do not use them.

blackdas · 08-20-2003, 08:51 AM

Fag obviously isn't meant to be taken literally (well, depends on the situation). But I mean if you call someone an asshole, you're not literally calling them an anus.

Kadath · 08-20-2003, 09:56 AM

I'm not trying to be contentious here. I just want you to think about your lingo. blackdas, when you call someone an asshole, are you doing that in a nice way? Or does "asshole" mean something negative, something you don't want to be, something dirty? So what does that mean when you insult someone by calling them a "fag"? How about if I call you a "nigger"? I don't mean that literally, of course. You probably aren't even black. So "nigger" isn't a terrible thing to call someone, right? Right?

lurkette · 08-20-2003, 10:10 AM

I agree with kadath.

To call someone a "fag" or to call something "gay" is to insinuate that it's a bad thing to be gay. Some people believe this is true, but the use of the epithet is still bigoted IMHO.

Really, the same is true of a lot of words we throw around all the time: bitch, prick, cunt, etc. They assume that the things the words refer to are negative in some way.

Cedar · 08-20-2003, 11:04 AM

*goes over to sit next to Kadath* It's not just on the internet, either. I taught junior high for a bit and really loved it, except that any kid caught saying, "That's so gay" would get thrown out of my classroom. I told them, "You wouldn't say 'That's so black' or 'That's so Asian,' so you don't get to say 'That's so gay.'" Of course, there's the whole stigma of not being a "real man," meta ad nauseum, but I don't think it's acceptable ever. I won't take it from my friends or from strangers. If you're not creative enough to think of a better insult, you're not really worth my time.

ninety09 · 08-20-2003, 11:42 AM

I'll use "fag" every now and then, just like I would use any other insults. If some people get offended by it, well it's really not my problem. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals, I even think they should be allowed to get married and all that. So using "fag" doesn't make a person homophobic. Fag has more than just one definition...

As for "gay", well it means two things: happy or homosexual. And since none of these things are bad, I don't use it as an insult.

Lebell · 08-20-2003, 01:14 PM

How does this sound to everyone, since we're justifying things?

I'll use "kike" every now and then, just like I would use any other insults. If some people get offended by it, well it's really not my problem. I have absolutely nothing against jews, I even think they should be allowed to get married and all that. So using "kike" doesn't make a person anti-semitic. Kike has more than just one definition...

As for "kike", well it means two things: to kick or jewish. And since none of these things are bad, I don't use it as an insult.

I can post some more if the absurdity is lost on anyone...

ninety09 · 08-20-2003, 01:25 PM

hmm, what's your point?

Shauk · 08-20-2003, 03:01 PM

if someone is gay, they shouldnt get mad.
if someone is called a fag, they shouldn't get mad.

political correctness is almost too sterile at times.

they are words, and simply words.
the INTENT behind the word is everything

ther person saying "thats faggy" peobably had no INTENT to say that gay people are something less than equal to them.

anyways thats all.

docbungle · 08-20-2003, 03:30 PM

For every derogatory term, there are people who will be offended by it. That's why it's a derogatory term. That's the point. It is meant to offend.

Using a derogatory term doesn't mean you're ignorant; it just means you're prolly pissed about something, and instead of saying "well, I'm really pissed about that" you say "That's fuckin' gay" or "Don't be such a fag".

I don't think these phrases belong under a microscope. There's no 'deep hidden meaning'. It's like playing Tomb Raider and positioning Lara Croft just so, so you can see inside her head....and then you find there's nothing there; it's just empty space.

People will always need something to say when they're pissed. I know I do.

Fred181 · 08-20-2003, 05:12 PM

I agree with docbungle (in a way), our society has become one in which you must constantly moniter what you say so that you don't offend someone. We have taken political correctness so far that we have become stifled. While some words probably don't belong in polite conversations should I really get blasted because I called a person black instead of african-american? Perhaps people shouldn't use the term gay to describe something, but on the same token the term is not used (in most cases) to specifically attack an individual or even a specific group (homosexuals), but as just a word. People need to relax a little and not get so wound up about stuff- no offense to any individuals, I mean "people" as our society as a whole (so as to not offend anyone)

virus · 08-20-2003, 05:42 PM

this is not about PC terminology, i'm talking about expletives, and with the fact there are so fucking

many of them it's silly to use one that is less conducive to a diverse Internet...

but, i suppose you could just say to yourself, "well who cares if a couple fags get offended." that's what it looks like to me.

JamesS · 08-20-2003, 08:24 PM

I'd be interested to know, how did the terms 'gay' and 'faggot' come to refer to homosexuality in the first place? I know they both had other meanings before they took on their current status.

auswegian · 08-20-2003, 08:43 PM

Meh. Using "gay" to describe things as crap is well established now as not referring to actual homosexuality. I know gay people who say "That's just fucking gay" without really noticing. I know some people would get offended, but such people aren't the type I particularly care about. I _like_ people whom I can insult because of their race/sexuality/whatever without having them jump down my throat. I call my Japanese friends "Japs" and they don't bat an eyelid. My Chinese housemate has 'Ching Within' on his door. I call another friend 'Jew-boy' because he's both Jewish and he's a stingy bugger, and he isn't offended in the slightest.

The world would be a lot better if everyone would just calm down and quit obsessing over semantics. I have a dream that a white man will call a black man "Nigger", a black man will call a white man "Honky", and then both will laugh and have a drink.

By refusing to use certain words for fear of causing, we give them power and actually reinforce assumptions of difference, however inadvertantly.

Kadath · 08-20-2003, 08:47 PM

"I" is for ignorant.

BigGov · 08-20-2003, 08:55 PM

Many many years ago, Gay just meant things like:

-Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
-Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.

Until homosexuals took it and made it their own word.

Now almost everyone else has taken it back and is now using it how they damn well please.

If you don't like the rules, don't play the game.

blackdas · 08-20-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
I'm not trying to be contentious here. I just want you to think about your lingo. blackdas, when you call someone an asshole, are you doing that in a nice way? Or does "asshole" mean something negative, something you don't want to be, something dirty? So what does that mean when you insult someone by calling them a "fag"? How about if I call you a "nigger"? I don't mean that literally, of course. You probably aren't even black. So "nigger" isn't a terrible thing to call someone, right? Right?

Umm, well if someone was called a nigger I would consider it someone that is lazy, uneducated and ignorant.

Fag is negative, but not because it means being gay is bad. We aren't two years old, we can realize that not everything is literal.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
"I" is for ignorant.

exactly, you described yourself well.

Fred181 · 08-20-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by virus
but, i suppose you could just say to yourself, "well who cares if a couple fags get offended." that's what it looks like to me.

Actually that's not at all what I meant , my point was that EVERYONE today is too easily offended. I realize that your thread is directed specifically at deragatory homosexual terms, and bad on me for broadening it, but my point was that as a culture we have sanitize everything we say out of fear that something could be taken the wrong way and offend someone- I would say that this is a good example...

BigGov · 08-20-2003, 10:06 PM

But there's one thing that always holds true.

I'm a normal, white guy. Yet, for some magical reason, I CAN'T be offended at anything a gay guy, or a black guy says to me. At least that's what everyone thinks.

Especially that cracker term. Everytime someone calls me a cracker I just...I'm sorry...It's just hard for me...But when I hear that...that word...I feel white...and insignificant...like the something to be dipped into soup...or have some cheese put on...but not good enough to be eatten on my own.

Hell, even on national TV. Watch Dave Chepelle's show. Cracker is mentioned a lot. Also on Snoop Dogg's show.

Now, if say a white comedian, like Jimmy Kimmel, were to call a black person a nigger in some skit, there'd be TONS of people jumping down his throat.

You can't pick and choose who's offended and who's not, who can be protected and who can't, because choosing some here and some there just makes you a hypocrate.

Loki · 08-21-2003, 02:23 AM

Jimmy4, its a victims world.

either find yourself a minority to affiliate yourself with, or grin and bear it =)

virus · 08-21-2003, 05:22 AM

the people arguing here are missing the point. i'm not talking about colloquially using an derogatory ethnic or class-descriptive term. auswegian, myself, and probably many of us do that with our friends.

i'm talking about publicly using the word "gay" as a default term for "wuss." my problem is specifically that the target is (probably) not gay. you're generally redefining a word which, let's face it, has the blatantly obvious implication of homosexuality, whether you want to play the etymology game or not, everyone knows what is implied.

if every moron on usenet called each other "Australian" to mean "dickhead" do you think a lot of Australians would feel invited to those forums? i think the Australians would think the net was comprised of a bunch of idiots.

see Lebell's "kike" example above.

Kadath · 08-21-2003, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackdas
exactly, you described yourself well.

Wow. You sure did put me in my place. Well done.

Lebell · 08-21-2003, 06:29 AM

The bottom line is that language like this is meant to hurt other people. Always has been. It makes them less than human. "Oh, he/she is just a fag/dago/nigger, etc" with the implication that therefore that person does not deserve the full respect that we give a regular "person".

"Faggy" and "gay" is just an extension of this.

Please, can any of you linguistic contortion artists honestly tell me that you mean "a piece of wood" or "happy" when you say, "That's so faggy/gay"?

No.

You mean that the object of derision is less than good/normal. It's queer and can be put down, just like a man who isn't a 'real' man can be put down because he swishes and likes men.

In otherwords, something to deride and laugh at.

And the "we both laugh at it" arguement is bullshit. It is the classic way bullies justify such language.

So let me make it clear, if it is not.

Call it PC, (I really don't care) but I consider "faggy" very iffy on TFP. Use stronger putdowns at your own peril.

seretogis · 08-21-2003, 07:18 AM

For the love of god people, it's just a word. Get over it. Definitions of words change through their use and eventually another popular derogatory term will come up and you can rejoice. I suggest that by not being offended by improper uses of a word by morons that can't even spell it, you will live a less stressful life.

By the way, I think it's hilarious that while condemning derogatory use of the word "gay", virus managed to fall to reinforcing a stereotype that gay men are muscular and fashionable. I don't know about all other gay men in the world, but I'm a programmer and I own five shirts.

BigGov · 08-21-2003, 08:55 AM

Quote:

i'm talking about publicly using the word "gay" as a default term for "wuss." my problem is specifically that the target is (probably) not gay. you're generally redefining a word which, let's face it, has the blatantly obvious implication of homosexuality, whether you want to play the etymology game or not, everyone knows what is implied.

And gay used to mean what I defined it as above because I took it from a dictionary. Homosexuals took it, and made it their word, we've taken it back, and are using it as we like. If homosexuals can do it, we can too.

vermin · 08-21-2003, 06:07 PM

Because to a lot of heteros (me included), being called "gay" is still very much an insult.

Wrote this in response to the original question without reading all the posts. Now I'll read all the posts and see if I've gotten it wrong, again.

After reading all the posts:

Sometimes it's necessary and fun to insult others. If you spend your whole life worrying about who you're going to offend, you're letting other people run your life.
Bad idea.
Don't be a pussy.

virus · 08-21-2003, 06:50 PM

jimmy4's above statement about of "taking the term back" underscores my point.

the "muscular, fashionable" statement was a failed attempt at making this thread light-spirited, while offering an equally silly predjudice to point out the negative meaning is invalid. i would agree with you, seretogis, but it seems to be a trend in apathy, not a handful of people. the question posed by this thread in the first place was only wondering _why_ people feel a need to use it, i was not attempting to attack the uncreative droves that do.

i'm not really sure how minor word choice equates to something as dramatic as "letting other people run your life."

vermin · 08-23-2003, 03:40 AM

Quote:

i'm not really sure how minor word choice equates to something as dramatic as "letting other people run your life."

My point was that having read all the previous posts, it seemed that some people put way too much thought into minor word choices.

I may have mis-read your original question. My previous post (above) was in response to the question posed in the first sentence of your thread-starter.

As for the question at the end:

Quote:

...i think it's way-too-widely accepted and i'm wondering why people think it is that way.

Were you wondering why it's widely accepted or why people use the word as an insult?

virus · 08-23-2003, 04:42 AM

i'm wondering why it's so widely accepted as an insult- it's the new "retard."

"retard" is good evidence that a term can be somewhat neutralized by repeated use. the simpson's mocked "gay" one time i think in 1997, when a bully said, "that dude kissed a girl- that's SOOO GAY!" ha.

perhaps my interest in "gay" is that the retarded population is far less likely to take personal offense or feel out of place while surfing the net. so i think that "gay" may be a rather unique singling out.

i've done some searching on usenet, and there i can't find any other class-descriptive terms commonly used as a generic insult. though "nigger" may be gaining momentum.

my point is that this word use is not so mundane. gay-bashing terms are perhaps the longest-running class descriptive general insults used on the web (that have any chance of offending the term's origin class). if people really ran around calling eachother "chink" or "buddhist" as a general insult without knowledge of the target, i would not be interested in "gay."

auswegian · 08-23-2003, 07:40 AM

Personally I find the term "retard" more iffy than "gay". The difference largely being that nowadays gay people can say "Yes. I'm gay. So what?". While retarded people don't have the same sources of self-esteem. I realize that the cruel use of a word like gay might still cause suffering, but I really think that its a relatively minor thing. Retarded people, IMHO, suffer more from casual cruelty in this day and age. Most gay people have bigger fish to fry than some stupid word (their own lives, maybe?)

But I disagree with Jimmy4, well I don't quite disagree but...its well its weird. It might be hypocritical that nigger is a taboo term while cracker isn't, but seriously who cares? If there's any subclass of people that deserves shit dumped on them its white males. We are crackers, the dickheads of history, we deserve all we get. Although I personally prefer Asian derogatory terms toward whites like "gwailoh" and " hakujin". But in all truth, 'cracker' simply does not have the same offensiveness as 'nigger' or 'faggot'. It's not even in the same league, its right down the bottom.

I do hope to end the debate on "gay" by instructing my gay friends to refer to everything they find crap as "fucking hetero". Should even things out nicely.

virus · 08-24-2003, 05:11 AM

thank you all for your time.

JBX · 08-24-2003, 06:24 AM

I for one can certainly come up with a insult that will leave you bloody. I think the term "gay" is going to revert back to it's original dictionary meaning:

gay :
1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.
2. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.
3. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season.
4. licentious; dissipated; wanton: The baron is a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies.

08-20-2003, 05:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	Internet use of the term "gay" why is it that the end-all and be-all argument is "you're gay," or "you fag." usenet is particularly guilty of this, and i used to see it here a lot. this bigotry annoys the shit out of me. then again, i'm a new yorker so i have first hand experience that gay is not a particularly nasty thing to be called. oh gee, you just called me muscular with a keen fashion sense. anyway, i think it's way-too-widely accepted and i'm wondering why people think it is that way.

08-20-2003, 05:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	it's so widely used that i dont think it actually refers to homosexuality anymore. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

08-20-2003, 06:18 AM	#3 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	The_Dude may actually have a point there. My New York born and raised wife will say "That's gay" in reference to something silly that she doesn't agree with, or "that's faggy" in reference to something in bad taste. She gets some odd looks in Omaha, though, so she doesn't use those terms much antmore. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

08-20-2003, 06:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	I think saying that it no longer refers to homosexuality is trying to defend a practice that has its roots in bigotry and ignorance. To call something "gay" or "faggy" in order to demean it just exposes a person's own prejudice or ignorance. Other phrases exhibiting this tendency: "To jew someone down" "What a gyp" "That's mighty white of you" "Nigger-rigged" "Welsh on a debt", etc. Think about what you say before you say it and you'll be fine. __________________ it's quiet in here

08-20-2003, 08:19 AM	#5 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I would have to agree with Kadath on this one. To use those terms shows ignorance of their history and why they first were used in a derogatory fashion. I personally do not use them. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-20-2003, 08:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
blackdas Crazy	Fag obviously isn't meant to be taken literally (well, depends on the situation). But I mean if you call someone an asshole, you're not literally calling them an anus.

08-20-2003, 09:56 AM	#7 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	I'm not trying to be contentious here. I just want you to think about your lingo. blackdas, when you call someone an asshole, are you doing that in a nice way? Or does "asshole" mean something negative, something you don't want to be, something dirty? So what does that mean when you insult someone by calling them a "fag"? How about if I call you a "nigger"? I don't mean that literally, of course. You probably aren't even black. So "nigger" isn't a terrible thing to call someone, right? Right? __________________ it's quiet in here

08-20-2003, 10:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I agree with kadath. To call someone a "fag" or to call something "gay" is to insinuate that it's a bad thing to be gay. Some people believe this is true, but the use of the epithet is still bigoted IMHO. Really, the same is true of a lot of words we throw around all the time: bitch, prick, cunt, etc. They assume that the things the words refer to are negative in some way. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

08-20-2003, 11:04 AM	#9 (permalink)
Cedar Crazy Location: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry	goes over to sit next to Kadath It's not just on the internet, either. I taught junior high for a bit and really loved it, except that any kid caught saying, "That's so gay" would get thrown out of my classroom. I told them, "You wouldn't say 'That's so black' or 'That's so Asian,' so you don't get to say 'That's so gay.'" Of course, there's the whole stigma of not being a "real man," meta ad nauseum, but I don't think it's acceptable ever. I won't take it from my friends or from strangers. If you're not creative enough to think of a better insult, you're not really worth my time. __________________ Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, I am large. I contain multitudes. -Walt Whitman, Song of Myself

08-20-2003, 11:42 AM	#10 (permalink)
ninety09 Flavour of the Weak Location: Canada	I'll use "fag" every now and then, just like I would use any other insults. If some people get offended by it, well it's really not my problem. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals, I even think they should be allowed to get married and all that. So using "fag" doesn't make a person homophobic. Fag has more than just one definition... As for "gay", well it means two things: happy or homosexual. And since none of these things are bad, I don't use it as an insult.

08-20-2003, 01:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	How does this sound to everyone, since we're justifying things? I'll use "kike" every now and then, just like I would use any other insults. If some people get offended by it, well it's really not my problem. I have absolutely nothing against jews, I even think they should be allowed to get married and all that. So using "kike" doesn't make a person anti-semitic. Kike has more than just one definition... As for "kike", well it means two things: to kick or jewish. And since none of these things are bad, I don't use it as an insult. I can post some more if the absurdity is lost on anyone... __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-20-2003, 01:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
ninety09 Flavour of the Weak Location: Canada	hmm, what's your point?

08-20-2003, 03:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	if someone is gay, they shouldnt get mad. if someone is called a fag, they shouldn't get mad. political correctness is almost too sterile at times. they are words, and simply words. the INTENT behind the word is everything ther person saying "thats faggy" peobably had no INTENT to say that gay people are something less than equal to them. anyways thats all.

08-20-2003, 03:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	For every derogatory term, there are people who will be offended by it. That's why it's a derogatory term. That's the point. It is meant to offend. Using a derogatory term doesn't mean you're ignorant; it just means you're prolly pissed about something, and instead of saying "well, I'm really pissed about that" you say "That's fuckin' gay" or "Don't be such a fag". I don't think these phrases belong under a microscope. There's no 'deep hidden meaning'. It's like playing Tomb Raider and positioning Lara Croft just so, so you can see inside her head....and then you find there's nothing there; it's just empty space. People will always need something to say when they're pissed. I know I do. __________________ Bad Luck City

08-20-2003, 05:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Fred181 Crazy Location: Frigid North	I agree with docbungle (in a way), our society has become one in which you must constantly moniter what you say so that you don't offend someone. We have taken political correctness so far that we have become stifled. While some words probably don't belong in polite conversations should I really get blasted because I called a person black instead of african-american? Perhaps people shouldn't use the term gay to describe something, but on the same token the term is not used (in most cases) to specifically attack an individual or even a specific group (homosexuals), but as just a word. People need to relax a little and not get so wound up about stuff- no offense to any individuals, I mean "people" as our society as a whole (so as to not offend anyone) __________________ My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

08-20-2003, 05:42 PM	#16 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	this is not about PC terminology, i'm talking about expletives, and with the fact there are so fucking many of them it's silly to use one that is less conducive to a diverse Internet... but, i suppose you could just say to yourself, "well who cares if a couple fags get offended." that's what it looks like to me.

08-20-2003, 08:24 PM	#17 (permalink)
JamesS Crazy Location: Land of the Hanging Chad	I'd be interested to know, how did the terms 'gay' and 'faggot' come to refer to homosexuality in the first place? I know they both had other meanings before they took on their current status. __________________ The tragedy of life is what dies inside a man while he lives. -- Albert Schweitzer

08-20-2003, 08:43 PM	#18 (permalink)
auswegian Crazy Location: Perth, Australia	Meh. Using "gay" to describe things as crap is well established now as not referring to actual homosexuality. I know gay people who say "That's just fucking gay" without really noticing. I know some people would get offended, but such people aren't the type I particularly care about. I _like_ people whom I can insult because of their race/sexuality/whatever without having them jump down my throat. I call my Japanese friends "Japs" and they don't bat an eyelid. My Chinese housemate has 'Ching Within' on his door. I call another friend 'Jew-boy' because he's both Jewish and he's a stingy bugger, and he isn't offended in the slightest. The world would be a lot better if everyone would just calm down and quit obsessing over semantics. I have a dream that a white man will call a black man "Nigger", a black man will call a white man "Honky", and then both will laugh and have a drink. By refusing to use certain words for fear of causing, we give them power and actually reinforce assumptions of difference, however inadvertantly. __________________ "Look, I'm pretty relaxed for a guy who just lost money on a rave. And who's currently speeding down the highway drunk off my tits. And I'm being chased by someone in a blue Corolla. Woohoo! I just ran a red light!"

08-20-2003, 08:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	"I" is for ignorant. __________________ it's quiet in here

08-20-2003, 08:55 PM	#20 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	Many many years ago, Gay just meant things like: -Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry. -Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room. Until homosexuals took it and made it their own word. Now almost everyone else has taken it back and is now using it how they damn well please. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-20-2003, 10:06 PM	#23 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	But there's one thing that always holds true. I'm a normal, white guy. Yet, for some magical reason, I CAN'T be offended at anything a gay guy, or a black guy says to me. At least that's what everyone thinks. Especially that cracker term. Everytime someone calls me a cracker I just...I'm sorry...It's just hard for me...But when I hear that...that word...I feel white...and insignificant...like the something to be dipped into soup...or have some cheese put on...but not good enough to be eatten on my own. Hell, even on national TV. Watch Dave Chepelle's show. Cracker is mentioned a lot. Also on Snoop Dogg's show. Now, if say a white comedian, like Jimmy Kimmel, were to call a black person a nigger in some skit, there'd be TONS of people jumping down his throat. You can't pick and choose who's offended and who's not, who can be protected and who can't, because choosing some here and some there just makes you a hypocrate. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-21-2003, 02:23 AM	#24 (permalink)
Loki Psycho Location: Drifting.	Jimmy4, its a victims world. either find yourself a minority to affiliate yourself with, or grin and bear it =)

08-21-2003, 05:22 AM	#25 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	the people arguing here are missing the point. i'm not talking about colloquially using an derogatory ethnic or class-descriptive term. auswegian, myself, and probably many of us do that with our friends. i'm talking about publicly using the word "gay" as a default term for "wuss." my problem is specifically that the target is (probably) not gay. you're generally redefining a word which, let's face it, has the blatantly obvious implication of homosexuality, whether you want to play the etymology game or not, everyone knows what is implied. if every moron on usenet called each other "Australian" to mean "dickhead" do you think a lot of Australians would feel invited to those forums? i think the Australians would think the net was comprised of a bunch of idiots. see Lebell's "kike" example above.

08-21-2003, 06:29 AM	#27 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	The bottom line is that language like this is meant to hurt other people. Always has been. It makes them less than human. "Oh, he/she is just a fag/dago/nigger, etc" with the implication that therefore that person does not deserve the full respect that we give a regular "person". "Faggy" and "gay" is just an extension of this. Please, can any of you linguistic contortion artists honestly tell me that you mean "a piece of wood" or "happy" when you say, "That's so faggy/gay"? No. You mean that the object of derision is less than good/normal. It's queer and can be put down, just like a man who isn't a 'real' man can be put down because he swishes and likes men. In otherwords, something to deride and laugh at. And the "we both laugh at it" arguement is bullshit. It is the classic way bullies justify such language. So let me make it clear, if it is not. Call it PC, (I really don't care) but I consider "faggy" very iffy on TFP. Use stronger putdowns at your own peril. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-21-2003, 07:18 AM	#28 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	For the love of god people, it's just a word. Get over it. Definitions of words change through their use and eventually another popular derogatory term will come up and you can rejoice. I suggest that by not being offended by improper uses of a word by morons that can't even spell it, you will live a less stressful life. By the way, I think it's hilarious that while condemning derogatory use of the word "gay", virus managed to fall to reinforcing a stereotype that gay men are muscular and fashionable. I don't know about all other gay men in the world, but I'm a programmer and I own five shirts. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

08-21-2003, 06:07 PM	#30 (permalink)
vermin Indifferent to anti-matter Location: Tucson, AZ	Because to a lot of heteros (me included), being called "gay" is still very much an insult. Wrote this in response to the original question without reading all the posts. Now I'll read all the posts and see if I've gotten it wrong, again. After reading all the posts: Sometimes it's necessary and fun to insult others. If you spend your whole life worrying about who you're going to offend, you're letting other people run your life. Bad idea. Don't be a pussy. __________________ If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.

08-21-2003, 06:50 PM	#31 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	jimmy4's above statement about of "taking the term back" underscores my point. the "muscular, fashionable" statement was a failed attempt at making this thread light-spirited, while offering an equally silly predjudice to point out the negative meaning is invalid. i would agree with you, seretogis, but it seems to be a trend in apathy, not a handful of people. the question posed by this thread in the first place was only wondering _why_ people feel a need to use it, i was not attempting to attack the uncreative droves that do. i'm not really sure how minor word choice equates to something as dramatic as "letting other people run your life."

08-23-2003, 04:42 AM	#33 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	i'm wondering why it's so widely accepted as an insult- it's the new "retard." "retard" is good evidence that a term can be somewhat neutralized by repeated use. the simpson's mocked "gay" one time i think in 1997, when a bully said, "that dude kissed a girl- that's SOOO GAY!" ha. perhaps my interest in "gay" is that the retarded population is far less likely to take personal offense or feel out of place while surfing the net. so i think that "gay" may be a rather unique singling out. i've done some searching on usenet, and there i can't find any other class-descriptive terms commonly used as a generic insult. though "nigger" may be gaining momentum. my point is that this word use is not so mundane. gay-bashing terms are perhaps the longest-running class descriptive general insults used on the web (that have any chance of offending the term's origin class). if people really ran around calling eachother "chink" or "buddhist" as a general insult without knowledge of the target, i would not be interested in "gay."

08-23-2003, 07:40 AM	#34 (permalink)
auswegian Crazy Location: Perth, Australia	Personally I find the term "retard" more iffy than "gay". The difference largely being that nowadays gay people can say "Yes. I'm gay. So what?". While retarded people don't have the same sources of self-esteem. I realize that the cruel use of a word like gay might still cause suffering, but I really think that its a relatively minor thing. Retarded people, IMHO, suffer more from casual cruelty in this day and age. Most gay people have bigger fish to fry than some stupid word (their own lives, maybe?) But I disagree with Jimmy4, well I don't quite disagree but...its well its weird. It might be hypocritical that nigger is a taboo term while cracker isn't, but seriously who cares? If there's any subclass of people that deserves shit dumped on them its white males. We are crackers, the dickheads of history, we deserve all we get. Although I personally prefer Asian derogatory terms toward whites like "gwailoh" and " hakujin". But in all truth, 'cracker' simply does not have the same offensiveness as 'nigger' or 'faggot'. It's not even in the same league, its right down the bottom. I do hope to end the debate on "gay" by instructing my gay friends to refer to everything they find crap as "fucking hetero". Should even things out nicely. __________________ "Look, I'm pretty relaxed for a guy who just lost money on a rave. And who's currently speeding down the highway drunk off my tits. And I'm being chased by someone in a blue Corolla. Woohoo! I just ran a red light!"

08-24-2003, 05:11 AM	#35 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	thank you all for your time. Last edited by virus; 08-24-2003 at 04:15 PM..

08-24-2003, 06:24 AM	#36 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	I for one can certainly come up with a insult that will leave you bloody. I think the term "gay" is going to revert back to it's original dictionary meaning: gay : 1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music. 2. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments. 3. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season. 4. licentious; dissipated; wanton: The baron is a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies. __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"