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-   -   Odd's of Legalizing in US? (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/23165-odds-legalizing-us.html)

Mojo_PeiPei 08-19-2003 09:18 PM

Odd's of Legalizing in US?
 
The Bush Admin is pretty dead set against this. But how long do you think it will last? Weed is legal in alot of Europe, Canada doesn't really pay mind to it, do you think it could be legal in 5 years? As is the trend the Liberals in Europe set the bar and we join them a few years down the line.

Zeld2.0 08-19-2003 09:24 PM

Well I'd say a lot of it is money run

You legalize it then those who hunt it lose their jobs / the money made on busts and people there get pissed

But who knows, if you don't try, how would you know

Phaenx 08-19-2003 09:57 PM

I doubt it. Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen.

MacGnG 08-19-2003 10:45 PM

...soon after it is completely legal in canada. if it was legalized, it would be cleaner, and there would be much less "drug related crime"

zenmaster10665 08-20-2003 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
...soon after it is completely legal in canada. if it was legalized, it would be cleaner, and there would be much less "drug related crime"
I think you will find that a great deal of "Drug related crime" is from physically addictive drugs (i.e. Heroin, Crack, Cocaine, etc)

I personally think that the main reasons that Marajuana is illegal in the states are:

1. Puritanical religious influences in the US government
2. The fact that weed is incredibly easy to grow and is, therefore, not easily taxable.
3. The tobacco lobby in the US.

Possibly, in a few years, as the tobacco companies continue to lose battles and are forced to spend less of their monies on PAC's, we might see a but of a shift...I dont think anything will happen until then.

Charlatan 08-20-2003 04:24 AM

Not while this administration is in power... They love to suck the fun out of life...

lurkette 08-20-2003 05:20 AM

I think legalizing it on a federal level is bloody unlikely - too many opponents in high places. But if it goes state-by-state (similar to medical marijuana legislation), we might see some progress. All it would take is one or two states to start the ball rolling and we'd see court challenges that might open things up a bit. Here's hoping.

The_Dude 08-20-2003 05:58 AM

we have a war on terror now to replace war on drugs.

another way to waste money.

if the US ever legalizes, it will be under a democratic congress cuz i dont think the conservatives want people smokin pot.

Lebell 08-20-2003 08:05 AM

All of this is purely conjecture, but I don't see it being legalized here before it is legal in Canada and then, probably not for another 5-10 years after.

Darkblack 08-20-2003 08:07 AM

I actually think this will happen eventually. I am sure it will be controlled by the tobacco industry exactly as tobacco is.

JumpinJesus 08-20-2003 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack
I actually think this will happen eventually. I am sure it will be controlled by the tobacco industry exactly as tobacco is.
This, I believe, is one of the greatest obstacles in its legalization - aside from the pharmaceutical lobbyists.

Just about anyone who knows how to water a plant can grow their own. This makes controlled growing and taxation difficult. If it were legalized, would you pay, say, $25 for a pack of 5 joints or would you buy your own pack of seeds for $10 and grow your own indefinitely?

Of course, this is only my opinion, I could be totally wrong.

lurkette 08-20-2003 10:15 AM

I'm curious what you all think of the following conspiracy theory, which did not come out of my sick and twisted mind. I read it somewhere else:

Drugs will never be legalized in the U.S. because the criminal drug industry has too much to lose (presumably through the costs of regulation and taxation, competition driving down the prices, market controls, etc.) and would exert financial or other less pleasant persuasive pressures on key government officials (presumably politicians at various levels) to prevent legalization.

Discuss.

Bill O'Rights 08-20-2003 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Drugs will never be legalized in the U.S. because the criminal drug industry has too much to lose (presumably through the costs of regulation and taxation, competition driving down the prices, market controls, etc.) and would exert financial or other less pleasant persuasive pressures on key government officials (presumably politicians at various levels) to prevent legalization.

In as much as I hate to say it...it does sound very plausible.


Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Discuss.
Anyone else having a high school flashback? Brrrrr.

BigGov 08-20-2003 12:23 PM

Marijuana will be legal when the tobacco companies want it to be legal. Plain and simple.

eris 08-20-2003 02:09 PM

I think the efforts in Canada & the UK will help the cause - but it will take some serious pressure from the public to make it happen in the US. And that's not about to happen underneath the current admin - nor any of the other lame assed candidates on the bill for 2004...

2wolves 08-20-2003 03:52 PM

1. A plant you can grow in your living room and can't be taxed is EVIL!!!!! EVIL I say!!!!

2. The beer & distilled spirits industry would suffer another severe hit. Please see opensecerts.org to see how much they donate to politicians ever freaking year. It isn't chump change.

3. The current neo-con position that anything that might be enjoyed more than their true fever feelings has to be bad for America.

4. The continued federal stance of ignoring that cannabis is the, and I do mean top, cash crop in a number of states.

5. How else can the privatization of the penal system be justified unless there is a constant stream of dis-satisfied customers.

The above points don't apply to me as I'm forced to urinate into a cup every month or so to maintain my employment. I would personally opt for cannabis over any other legally available rec chem but it just isn't to be.

2Wolves

oldman2003 08-20-2003 05:49 PM

There is one thing you have overlooked...the "breathalizer". This was a main issue before most of you were even born. When I was a young buck working in the factory, ...to keep it short...we were pulled over. The trooper smelled pot. We were arrested. They wanted to drug test me. I sat in a room with two of Michigans' finest troopers reading a manuall on how to draw blood with a needle...They had some new expermental test. They wanted my blood. They were not doctors. They never did this before. I was scared as hell! I got straight real quick! After four hours they just let me post bail. Drove us back to the car. One trooper told me it was thier opnion that as soon as they could test for pot with a breath test it would probably be legal...

That was a different world. Too much "black" money is being made to legalize the devils weed. Check out what Attorney General John Ashcroft is doing right now...drug use = terrorism!
Sorry but I can't find the link to back up my statement so you will have to take it as a 'grain of salt'. I read it somewhere today while searching on the PATRIOT II..but that is another topic. Thanks.

Dibbler 08-20-2003 07:19 PM

OK, Billy Clinton made smoking regular cigarettes a major no-no. Drinking beer is a major no-no. Now potato chips are a no-no.

Do you really think that any of the guys in Washington DC will really say "well joints are ok though"

It's a pipe dream..........

constant 08-20-2003 09:05 PM

I think all drugs should be legalized and all drugs including alcohol should have the 18 and over law. All drugs should also be HEAVILY taxed.

BigGov 08-20-2003 09:27 PM

Missed this one
Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
I'm curious what you all think of the following conspiracy theory, which did not come out of my sick and twisted mind. I read it somewhere else:

Drugs will never be legalized in the U.S. because the criminal drug industry has too much to lose (presumably through the costs of regulation and taxation, competition driving down the prices, market controls, etc.) and would exert financial or other less pleasant persuasive pressures on key government officials (presumably politicians at various levels) to prevent legalization.

Drugs lords have pocket change compared to big tobacco.

The tobacco companies control the legalization of marijuana. Even if the drug lords somehow wanted to interviene, they wouldn't have a chance. Besides, a politician would much rather be labeled to be in the pocket of big tobacco than a drug lord that orders people be killed because someone's infringing on his turf.

JumpinJesus 08-21-2003 08:12 PM

Quote:

originally posted by jimmy4
The tobacco companies control the legalization of marijuana.
To a certain extent. Marijuana has also been shown in studies to aid in headache relief, prevention of weight loss in chemo and aids patients, pain relief in sufferers of glaucoma and numerous other health benefits. Eli Lilly and other pharmaceutical companies have probably had more influence than anyone - aside from William Randolph Hearst - in keeping marijuana illegal.

captwheelz23 08-21-2003 08:26 PM

Once they legalize weed in the United States, you will see the number of casual users decrease, mainly due to the taxes that will be added, as well as the attitude change towards smoking pot.

The question then becomes, how long do you wait before you soon the marijuana companies for the "addictive" components??

oldman2003 08-22-2003 06:40 PM

I found it! Check out this artical....I don't see pot ever becoming legal in this country...

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60129,00.html

Nizzle 08-22-2003 06:50 PM

The article states that significant portions of the draft "faced broad opposition from conservatives and liberals alike and embarrassed the Justice Department when it was leaked to the press in February."

Let's not all panic yet. :) Senator Orrin Hatch is pretty extreme.

krwlz 08-22-2003 07:01 PM

Yea, as much as I hate to say it....thats I hate that about conservatives. I am conservative about most things, but damn, most of us are the fun police!

TaLoN 08-23-2003 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I doubt it. Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen.

hmmm, the proven effects being what?? i haven't heard of any proven negative effects. (government studies are not proof). i would like to see some

Phaenx 08-23-2003 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TaLoN
hmmm, the proven effects being what?? i haven't heard of any proven negative effects. (government studies are not proof). i would like to see some
The ones most smokers shrug off as the man trying to steal their pot:

Quote:

Harmful Effects of Marijuana


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Brain and Central Nervous System

Impaired thinking, mood, memory, and coordination

Marijuana (THC) is an extremely powerful and pleasurable intoxicant. It affects, alters, and damages brain cells controlling thinking, emotion, pleasure, coordination, mood and memory. The pituitary gland is also damaged which regulates hunger, thirst, blood pressure, sexual behavior, and release of sex hormones.

Clogged synapses, brain damage and addiction

Marijuana accumulates in the microscopic spaces between nerve cells in the brain called "synapses." This clogging interferes by slowing and impairing transfer critical information.

Long term use causes the brain to stop production of brain chemicals necessary to "feel good" - a negative feedback condition. And, the user becomes chemically addicted to marijuana.

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Heart

Speeds up heartbeat as much as 50%, increases blood pressure, and poses great risk to those with hypertension and heart disease.

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Endocrine System

Marijuana damages the network of glands, organs, and hormones involved in growth and development, energy levels, and reproduction.

Organs and glands affected:
pituitary gland
thyroid gland
stomach
duodenum
pancreas
adrenal glands
testis

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Reproductive System males and females

Marijuana use can decrease and degenerate sperm, sperm count, movement, and cause lowered sex drive. Females can have egg damage, suppression of ovulation, disrupt menstrual cycles, and alteration of hormone levels.

Regular use during pregnancy can lower birth weight and cause abnormalities similar to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (small head, irritability, poor growth and development.

Can destroy the number of chromosomes, resulting in cell abnormalities and impaired function.

Other affects on the central nervous system
distortions of perceptions, thinking and reality
Difficulty in forming concepts and thoughts
Poor concentration
Mental confusion
Loss of motivation
Wide mood swings
Aggression and hostility
Depression, anxiety and paranoia

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Eyes

Sleep looking, blood-shot eyes with dilated pupils.

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Throat

Irritates membranes of the esophagus; increases chance of developing cancer of larynx and esophagus.

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Lungs

Significant damage and destruction of the air sacs of the lungs, reducing the lungs ability to bring oxygen and remove carbon dioxide - Emphysema.

Causes bronchial tubes to be inflamed, thickened and to produce more mucus; resulting in narrowing of the air passages - Chronic Bronchitis.

Marijuana smoke has twice as much "tar" as cigarette smoke and significantly increases chance of lung cancer, inflammation and infection.
__________________

The proof:

Herkenham M, Lynn A., Little MD, Johnson MR, et al: Cannabinoid receptor localization in the brain. Proc Natl Acad Sci, USA 87:1932-1936, 1990.

Rodriguez de Fonseca F, et al: Activation of cortocotropin-releasing factor in the limbic system during cannabinoid withdrawal. Science 276(5321):2050-2064, 1997.

Diana M, Melis M, Muntoni AL, et al: Mesolimbic dopaminergic decline after cannabinoid withdrawal. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci 95:10269-10273, 1998.

Mittleman MA, Lewis RA, Maclure M, et al: Triggering myocardial infarction by marijuana. Circulation 103:2805-2809, 2001.

Polen M R, Sidney S, Tekawa IS, et al: Health care use by frequent marijuana smokers who do not smoke tobacco. West J Med 158:596-601, 1993.

Tashkin DP: Pulmonary complications of smoked substance abuse. West J Med 152:525-530, 1990.

Zhang ZF, Morgenstern H, Spitz MR, et al: Marijuana use and increased risk of squamous cell carcinoma of the head and neck. Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention 6:1071-1078, 1999.

Sridhar KS, Raub WA, Weatherby, NL Jr, et al: Possible role of marijuana smoking as a carcinogen in the development of lung cancer at a young age. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 26(3):285-288, 1994

Hoffman D, Brunnemann KD, Gori GB, et al: On the carcinogenicity of marijuana smoke. In: VC Runeckles, ed, Recent Advances in Phytochemistry. New York. Plenum, 1975.

Cohen S: Adverse effects of marijuana: selected issues. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 362:119-124, 1981.

Adams IB, Martin BR: Cannabis: pharmacology and toxicology in animals and humans. Addiction 91:1585-1614, 1996.

Klein TW, Newton C, Friedman H: Resistance to Legionella pneumophila suppressed by the marijuana component, tetrahydrocannabinol. J Infectious Disease 169:1177-1179, 1994.

Zhu L, Stolina M, Sharma S, et al: Delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol inhibits antitumor immunity by a CB2 receptor-mediated, cytokine-dependent pathway. J Immunology, 2000, pp. 373-380.

Brook JS, et al: The effect of early marijuana use on later anxiety and depressive symptoms. NYS Psychologist, January 2001, pp. 35-39

Green BE, Ritter C: Marijuana use and depression.
J Health Soc Behav 41(1):40-49, 2000.

Brook JS, Cohen P, Brook DW: Longitudinal study of co-occurring psychiatric disorders and substance use. J Acad Child and Adolescent Psych 37:322-330, 1998.

Pope HG, Yurgelun-Todd D: The residual cognitive effects of heavy marijuana use in college students. JAMA 272(7):521-527, 1996

Block RI, Ghoneim MM: Effects of chronic marijuana use on human cognition. Psychopharmacology 100(1-2):219-228, 1993

Lynskey M, Hall W: The effects of adolescent cannabis use on educational attainment: a review. Addiction 95(11):1621-1630, 2000.

Kandel DB, Davies M: High school students who use crack and other drugs. Arch Gen Psychiatry 53(1):71-80, 1996.

Rob M, Reynolds I, Finlayson PF: Adolescent marijuana use: risk factors and implications. Aust NZ J Psychiatry 24(1):45-56, 1990.

Brook JS, Balka EB, Whiteman M: The risks for late adolescence of early adolescent marijuana use. Am J Public Health 89(10):1549-1554, 1999.

Block RI, Ghoneim MM: Effects of chronic marijuana use on human cognition. Psychopharmacology 100(1-2):219 228, 1993.

Pope, Gruber, Hudson, et al: Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users. Archives of General Psychiatry.

Lehman WE, Simpson DD: Employee substance abuse and on-the-job behaviors. Journal of Applied Psychology 77(3):309-321, 1992.

Lester, BM; Dreher, M: Effects of marijuana use during pregnancy on newborn cry. Child Development 60:764-771, 1989.

Fried, PA: The Ottawa prenatal prospective study (OPPS): methodological issues and findings—it’s easy to throw the baby out with the bath water. Life Sciences 56:2159-2168, 1995.

Fried, PA: Prenatal exposure to marihuana and tobacco during infancy, early and middle childhood: effects and an attempt at synthesis. Arch Toxicol Supp 17:233-60, 1995.

Cornelius MD, Taylor PM, Geva D, et al: Prenatal tobacco and marijuana use among adolescents: effects on offspring gestational age, growth, and morphology. Pediatrics 95:738-743, 1995.

Kouri EM, Pope HG, Lukas SE: Changes in aggressive behavior during withdrawal from long-term marijuana use. Psychopharmacology 143:302-308, 1999.

Haney M, Ward AS, Comer SD, et al: Abstinence symptoms following smoked marijuana in humans. Psychopharmacology 141:395-404, 1999.

Lyons MJ, et al: Addiction 92(4):409-417, 1997.

Stephens RS, Roffman RA, Curtin L: Comparison of extended versus brief treatments for marijuana use. J Consult Clin Psychol 68(5):898-908, 2000

Budney AJ, Higgins ST, Radonovich KJ, et al: Adding voucher-based incentives to coping skills and motivational enhancement improves outcomes during treatment for marijuana dependence. J Consult Clin Psychol 68(6):1051-1061, 2000

Course, you don't need a scientist to tell you what the problem is. It's certainly not the television that's sucking out the potheads intelligence, ambition and so on.

MacGnG 08-23-2003 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zenmaster10665
The tobacco lobby in the US.
Marlboro Cannabis Cigarettes
Cannabis Camels
Really Kools
The Best: Cannabis pFunks (Parliament)

"Hey It Could Happen..." and thats why we only have to wait....
YO TOBACCO PPL... MAKE WEED LEGAL!

EDIT:Lurkette has a very good point but who has more power, tobacco lobby, or the organized crime "lobby" ??

2wolves 08-24-2003 01:50 AM

With tongue planted (not too) firmly in cheek:

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Brain and Central Nervous System

Impaired thinking, mood, memory, and coordination .


OK, now let us compare and contrast with legal drugs like alcohol.

Number of cannabis induced rages in the history of mankind...........0

Number of alcohol induced rages this past weekend........................see your local battered women's shelter.

2Wolves

Phaenx 08-24-2003 11:25 AM

"Dude, I ate all your twinkies"

"I'LL KILL YOU....woah....my hands can touch anything but themselves......oh wait..."

Lets just ban alcohol and ciggerettes.

Nizzle 08-24-2003 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
Lets just ban alcohol
You mean like Islamic nations?

That doesn't sound very American to me, sir.

Phaenx 08-24-2003 11:57 AM

Being drunk off your ass all day and beating your wife isn't very American either.

Nice try though.

BigGov 08-24-2003 11:59 AM

I think it failed so horribly the first time we shouldn't dare try it a second time.

Nizzle 08-24-2003 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
Being drunk off your ass all day and beating your wife isn't very American either.

Nice try though.

Beating anyone is already illegal.

But you're right, drinking all day is a bad thing, so we should make it illegal. To carry this notion further, I'd like to suggest we make driving illegal to solve the problem of hit-and-run drivers; ban the Capitalist notion of private property to prevent theft; and, last but not least, repeal the First Amendment to put a stop to people saying nasty, un-American things.

While we're on the subject, how do you feel about repealing the Second Amendment so we can get the guns out of the hands of criminals?

Your line of thought is refreshingly Liberal once you take it to its logical extremes. I applaud you.

Phaenx 08-24-2003 12:21 PM

It's easy when you put words in my mouth and then take them out of context =).

There's a line to cross when you're destroying yourself. I don't care if someone sits home all day getting drunk and smoking pot, it's when their lifestyle encroaches on anothers that it becomes a problem. Those were cute analogies though, I'll clarify by saying I am for driving, private property and the first and second amendment.

Now, personal attacks aside, why do you think we should legalize a destructive invasive drug like marijuana, Nizzle?

Nizzle 08-24-2003 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
why do you think we should legalize a destructive invasive drug like marijuana
Because I don't think it's a destructive, invasive drug?

Nizzle 08-24-2003 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
It's easy when you put words in my mouth and then take them out of context =).

There's a line to cross when you're destroying yourself.

I'd like to clarify that the purpose of that post was not to suggest you believe these things, but to demonstrate the sophistry of your argument.

Criminalizing something because it can, in theory contribute to a negative effect is a slipperly slope. One must draw the line based on common sense, solid evidence, and an objective assesment of the pros and cons.

Anyone who has done more than cursory research into the history of the cannabis plant in America knows that this has not been done; the original lobbyists responsible had less than the welfare of smokers in mind.

I don't smoke pot, and I don't read High Times, so please do not generalize that all supporters of legalization are potheads. I don't label all supporters of Bush as redneck Christian fundamentalists. Stereotyping your opposition doesn't really give credit to your arguments or position. What it does demonstrate is an unwillingness to take your opposition seriously. You are welcome to feel that way, but it discredits the notion that your assessment is objective. Who are you to "draw the line" if you won't listen to the other side of the argument. That slope leads into the pit of fascism.

Quote:

I don't care if someone sits home all day getting drunk and smoking pot
Good, so mind your own business. :)

Quote:

it's when their lifestyle encroaches on anothers that it becomes a problem.
Can you explain to me how people who smoke pot in the privacy of their own home encroach on you?

Quote:

Those were cute analogies though, I'll clarify by saying I am for driving, private property and the first and second amendment.

Now, personal attacks aside

I know. The post was satirical. The concept it outlines is (I feel) valid.

Quote:

why do you think we should legalize a destructive invasive drug like marijuana, Nizzle?
I answered this in the previous post.

JBX 08-24-2003 03:56 PM

I think for medical purpose, 10 years, recreational long long time.

Phaenx 08-24-2003 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nizzle
Criminalizing something because it can, in theory contribute to a negative effect is a slipperly slope. One must draw the line based on common sense, solid evidence, and an objective assesment of the pros and cons.
I posted all the proven cons with many impartial studies backing them up. These aren't theories, lets see what you got.

There is also about as much proof alcohol is bad for you as there is marijuana. Why not ban alcohol since marijuana is so bad? I've heard the reverse (alcohol is legal so pot should be too!) more than once from the legalize crowd.

Quote:

Anyone who has done more than cursory research into the history of the cannabis plant in America knows that this has not been done; the original lobbyists responsible had less than the welfare of smokers in mind.
First things first. Prove marijuana is not harmful. Then that would almost be relevant.

Quote:

I don't smoke pot, and I don't read High Times, so please do not generalize that all supporters of legalization are potheads. I don't label all supporters of Bush as redneck Christian fundamentalists. Stereotyping your opposition doesn't really give credit to your arguments or position. What it does demonstrate is an unwillingness to take your opposition seriously. You are welcome to feel that way, but it discredits the notion that your assessment is objective. Who are you to "draw the line" if you won't listen to the other side of the argument. That slope leads into the pit of fascism.
I don't recall ever generalizing people in favor of legalization, I have however made fun of potheads numerous times. If you would be so kind as to point this out to me.


Quote:

Good, so mind your own business. :)

Can you explain to me how people who smoke pot in the privacy of their own home encroach on you?
It's is my business when someone goes around dumbing themselves down like this and I have to work with or for them.

I used to do production work at a computer joint with a few potheads who would regularly talk with each other rather then work, not come in to work, and produce shotty work when they did. This was a problem for me because we were expected to work as a team, or in other words I carried the whole lab the entire time I worked there.

Nizzle 08-24-2003 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I posted all the proven cons with many impartial studies backing them up. These aren't theories, lets see what you got.
Yes, this is a scientific paper outlining negative health effects. There are thousands of such research papers with impressive credentials on them that all say different things. This thread would not be very interesting if we sat here and posted them to each other all day. If you want to find similar studies that "prove" the side effects of marijuana are benign, then spend about 5 minutes on Google. There are a lot of doctors and research scientists who not only believe recreational use of cannabis is benign, but that it has positive side-effects in treatment of many illnesses.

Quote:

There is also about as much proof alcohol is bad for you as there is marijuana. Why not ban alcohol since marijuana is so bad?
I've heard the reverse (alcohol is legal so pot should be too!) more than once from the legalize crowd.

I think it is pretty clear that the "legalize crowd" does not feel either of these substances are as bad as you are suggesting. In addition, there are strong indicators that whether they are harmful or not, illegalizing them has far worse consequences. Here are a few ideas to toss around:

1. We are spending a massive amount of tax dollars to incarcerate drug offenders. The number is rising rapidly.

- According to ONDCP, federal spending to incarcerate drug offenders totals nearly $3 Billion a year -- $2.525 Billion by the Bureau of Prisons, and $429.4 Million by Federal Prisoner Detention. (Source:_ Office of National Drug Control Policy, "National Drug Control Strategy: FY 2003 Budget Summary" (Washington, DC: Office of the President, February 2002), Table 3, pp. 7-9. )

- Over 80% of the increase in the federal prison population from 1985 to 1995 was due to drug convictions. (Source:_US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 1996 (Washington DC: US Department of Justice, 1997).


2. Having a substance which is illegal creates drug trafficing. If this substance were legal, controlled and taxed it would eliminate a large section of criminals who make ridiculous amounts of money peddling. Money made from the sale of marijuana (and saved by not filling the prisons with drug offenders) could be used to fund education and social programs. Perhaps drug use would even decline. And if not, we would still save a lot of money.

3. Cannabis has been illegal for decades, and its use is still increasing every day. Your War on Drugs is a failure.

4. Please study the history and consequences of prohibition for a realistic reason why making alcohol illegal would not be a rational move.

Quote:

First things first. Prove marijuana is not harmful. Then that would almost be relevant.
I really don't feel that whether it is harmful or not, and to what degree, is really the important issue. There are other questions: of personal freedom, the effects the War on Drugs has had on our economy and social structure, and the denial of medical marijuana to those who are known to benefit from it. These issues need to be balanced in order for me to consider your argument credible.

I agree, there are probably some things about recreational use of cannabis that aren't that great. I also know that eating too much grease, salt and saturated fats is just as bad, if not worse. There are studies to "prove" this. Whether they should be illegal or not is not determined by that alone.

This is what I think:

- There are some harmful effects of chronic marijuana use
- There are some serious problems with it being illegal that need to be considered
- There are some benefits to making it legal

What I want is rational discourse that takes all these factors into account.

Quote:

I don't recall ever generalizing people in favor of legalization, I have however made fun of potheads numerous times. If you would be so kind as to point this out to me.
"Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen."

This statement implicitly declares that anyone who disagrees with your "proof" has gotten it from High Times, and is therefore a pothead (I don't know anyone else who reads High Times). The assertation that there are no credible studies on the benefits of medical cannabis is pretty silly. There is a large volume of such information.

Quote:

It's is my business when someone goes around dumbing themselves down like this and I have to work with or for them.

I used to do production work at a computer joint with a few potheads who would regularly talk with each other rather then work, not come in to work, and produce shotty work when they did. This was a problem for me because we were expected to work as a team, or in other words I carried the whole lab the entire time I worked there.

I'm sorry, but it is the job of your employer to handle this situation, not the Federal government and the penal system. I don't want my tax dollars spent to police your workplace. This is what drug screening, effective management and employee performance reviews are for. And if your employer chooses not to police this, then you should find another job. This is a free market, and no one forces you to work anywhere.


edit: fix typo

Phaenx 08-24-2003 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nizzle
[B]Yes, this is a scientific paper outlining negative health effects. There are thousands of such research papers with impressive credentials on them that all say different things. This thread would not be very interesting if we sat here and posted them to each other all day. If you want to find similar studies that "prove" the side effects of marijuana are benign, then spend about 5 minutes on Google. There are a lot of doctors and research scientists who not only believe recreational use of cannabis is benign, but that it has positive side-effects in treatment of many illnesses.
I don't have the time to sort out all the hightimes articles looking for something credible, this is a good project for you, as a person whose trying to convince me pot isn't bad.

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I think it is pretty clear that the "legalize crowd" does not feel either of these substances are as bad as you are suggesting. In addition, there are strong indicators that whether they are harmful or not, illegalizing them has far worse consequences. Here are a few ideas to toss around:
I'm only telling you what I've heard from scientists and doctors. Those that I've listed are the ones saying it's bad, I'm saying it's illegal for a good reason.

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1. We are spending a massive amount of tax dollars to incarcerate drug offenders. The number is rising rapidly.

- According to ONDCP, federal spending to incarcerate drug offenders totals nearly $3 Billion a year -- $2.525 Billion by the Bureau of Prisons, and $429.4 Million by Federal Prisoner Detention. (Source:_ Office of National Drug Control Policy, "National Drug Control Strategy: FY 2003 Budget Summary" (Washington, DC: Office of the President, February 2002), Table 3, pp. 7-9. )

- Over 80% of the increase in the federal prison population from 1985 to 1995 was due to drug convictions. (Source:_US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 1996 (Washington DC: US Department of Justice, 1997).


2. Having a substance which is illegal creates drug trafficing. If this substance were legal, controlled and taxed it would eliminate a large section of criminals who make ridiculous amounts of money peddling. Money made from the sale of marijuana (and saved by not filling the prisons with drug offenders) could be used to fund education and social programs. Perhaps drug use would even decline. And if not, we would still save a lot of money.

3. Cannabis has been illegal for decades, and its use is still increasing every day. Your War on Drugs is a failure.

4. Please study the history and consequences of prohibition for a realistic reason why making alcohol illegal would not be a rational move.
1. Drug is a broad term, it can't be proven either way, but most likely the people who went to prison were not the average college kid who would take advantage of legalized pot. No, these are likely the dealers and people who take harder drugs repeatedly, the ones who should be in prison anyways. If pot were legalized, I don't think it would put a dent in that number.

2. If pot were legal there would still be illegal substances being smuggled into the U.S. If we're still going to be doing the same thing, paying the DEA, putting the heinous offenders in prison (you don't go to prison for minor possession in most states, just a fine in Ohio unless you're carrying over a certain amount, which would result in jail and a fine I believe. I'd be in favor of increasing the fine against offenders for around 5 thousand dollars and sending them on their way. Because it sends the message that it is the wrong thing to do, and is a more plausible means of enforcing the law. Texas marijuana laws are close enough to this.)

3. That's easy to say. What would the numbers look like if we weren't fighting though? Too hard to say, but I think we'd have far more dumbasses then we do now.

4. Duly noted, but the point is that when someone says alcohol is worse then pot, so it should be legal too is nonsensical.

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I really don't feel that whether it is harmful or not, and to what degree, is really the important issue. There are other questions: of personal freedom, the effects the War on Drugs has had on our economy and social structure, and the denial of medical marijuana to those who are known to benefit from it. These issues need to be balanced in order for me to consider your argument credible.
Like I said, I don't care what they do as long as it doesn't affect me. When people destroy themselves it does affect me, and society as a whole. Their pursuit of happiness impedes mine, the war on drugs would continue whether pot was legal or not, and there are other drugs, superior ones in many cases, one could use instead of marijuana.

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I agree, there are probably some things about recreational use of cannabis that aren't that great. I also know that eating too much grease, salt and saturated fats is just as bad, if not worse. There are studies to "prove" this. Whether they should be illegal or not is not determined by that alone.

This is what I think:

- There are some harmful effects of chronic marijuana use
- There are some serious problems with it being illegal that need to be considered
- There are some benefits to making it legal

What I want is rational discourse that takes all these factors into account.
The problem there is you've already made up your mind, and dissent will always be irrational.

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"Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen."

This statement implicitly declares that anyone who disagrees with your "proof" has gotten it from High Times, and is therefore a pothead
No it doesn't.

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I'm sorry, but it is the job of your employer to handle this situation, not the Federal government and the penal system. I don't want my tax dollars spent to police your workplace. This is what drug screening, effective management and employee performance reviews are for. And if your employer choses not to police this, then you should find another job. This is a free market, and no one forces you to work anywhere.
That's true, which is partially why I quit. Telling on them simply wasn't enough. Drug tests can be beaten, and it's not hard to look busy when the boss comes by, it's harder then you think to stop this without going big brother on your employees.

Nizzle 08-24-2003 08:25 PM

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Originally posted by Phaenx
I don't have the time to sort out all the hightimes articles looking for something credible, this is a good project for you, as a person whose trying to convince me pot isn't bad.
A search for "medical marijuana" on Google does not return one single hit for a High Times article. If you can't be bothered to do even a cursory investigation, I feel I am wasting my time.

But to humor you, I searched for "medical marijuana" and limited results to .edu domains. Here's a large report from the Institute of Medicine (link here). Read the executive summary if nothing else. It covers every point previously cited in relation to psychological and physiological effects. It concludes, and states it in no uncertain terms, that although chronic use of marijuana has side effects, they are mild and short-lived. It goes extensively into benefits on cannabanoids in treatment of various disorders.

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I'm only telling you what I've heard from scientists and doctors. Those that I've listed are the ones saying it's bad, I'm saying it's illegal for a good reason.
Okay, what about these professors of Medicine from credible Universities that were the main panel of advisors for the IOM study? I don't think these are "High Times" columnists.

PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATORS AND ADVISORY PANEL
JOHN A. BENSON, JR. (Co-Principal Investigator), Dean and Professor of Medicine, Emeritus, Oregon Health Sciences University School of Medicine
STANLEY J. WATSON, JR. (Co-Principal Investigator), Co-Director and Research Scientist, Mental Health Research Institute, University of Michigan
STEVEN R. CHILDERS, Professor of Physiology and Pharmacology, Center for Neuroscience, Bowman Gray School of Medicine, Wake Forest University
J. RICHARD CROUT, President of Crout Consulting, Drug Development and Regulation, Bethesda, Maryland
THOMAS J. CROWLEY, Professor, Department of Psychiatry, and Executive Director, Addiction Research and Treatment Services, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
JUDITH FEINBERG, Professor, Department of Internal Medicine, and Associate Director, Division of Infectious Diseases, University of Cincinnati School of Medicine
HOWARD L. FIELDS, Professor of Neurology and Physiology, University of California at San Francisco
DOROTHY HATSUKAMI, Professor of Psychiatry, University of Minnesota
ERIC B. LARSON, Medical Director, University of Washington Medical Center, and Associate Dean for Clinical Affairs, University of Washington
BILLY R. MARTIN, Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology, and Director of National Institute on Drug Abuse Center on Drug Abuse, Medical College of Virginia, Virginia Commonwealth University
TIMOTHY L. VOLLMER, Professor of Medicine, Multiple Sclerosis Research Center, Yale University School of Medicine


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1. Drug is a broad term, it can't be proven either way, but most likely the people who went to prison were not the average college kid who would take advantage of legalized pot. No, these are likely the dealers and people who take harder drugs repeatedly, the ones who should be in prison anyways. If pot were legalized, I don't think it would put a dent in that number.
That entire response was completely devoid of any factual information. I'll just skip this part.

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2. If pot were legal there would still be illegal substances being smuggled into the U.S. If we're still going to be doing the same thing, paying the DEA, putting the heinous offenders in prison (you don't go to prison for minor possession in most states, just a fine in Ohio unless you're carrying over a certain amount, which would result in jail and a fine I believe. I'd be in favor of increasing the fine against offenders for around 5 thousand dollars and sending them on their way. Because it sends the message that it is the wrong thing to do, and is a more plausible means of enforcing the law. Texas marijuana laws are close enough to this.)
I'm willing to discuss separating hard drugs from marijuana. Decriminalizing marijuana does not have to include heroin and other Schedule I substances. Ultimately I don't think punishing drug users has any value. And drug smugglers would not even exist if the item were not contraband. The U.S. war on drugs is entirely responsible for a class of criminals that would not otherwise exist. Eliminating this faction would be a huge benefit to everyone.

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3. That's easy to say. What would the numbers look like if we weren't fighting though? Too hard to say, but I think we'd have far more dumbasses then we do now.


I don't know. Certainly a strong education program would need to come with legalization; and regulations to prevent cigarette companies from marketing heavily to teens.

Perhaps we will learn something from Canadian long-term studies.

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4. Duly noted, but the point is that when someone says alcohol is worse then pot, so it should be legal too is nonsensical.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up. I never suggested that one should be legalized or criminalized because of the laws governing the other.

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Like I said, I don't care what they do as long as it doesn't affect me. When people destroy themselves it does affect me, and society as a whole. Their pursuit of happiness impedes mine, the war on drugs would continue whether pot was legal or not, and there are other drugs, superior ones in many cases, one could use instead of marijuana.
I still don't see how someone smoking a joint in their own home has such a traumatic influence on your life. I accuse you of exaggerating. :) You have not even addressed the concern of medical marijuana in the treatment of glaucoma, chronic nausea and dizziness associated with HIV-fighting drugs and chemotherapy, and stimulating appetite.

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The problem there is you've already made up your mind, and dissent will always be irrational.


You mean like how you are convinced that everyone opposing you is affiliated with High Times and have no scientists or doctors to back their claims?

No, I simply have not heard any good arguments that make me question how I already feel. I hate to break this to you, but one report does not constitute proof of anything. The legalization of marijuana is a very potent political and social issue, and the people funding the research -- on both sides -- have a lot at stake on the contents of these reports. The point that I was trying to make earlier is that if you search, you will find people on both sides of the coin stating they have scientific proof of their side.

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That's true, which is partially why I quit. Telling on them simply wasn't enough. Drug tests can be beaten, and it's not hard to look busy when the boss comes by, it's harder then you think to stop this without going big brother on your employees.
I still don't see how this is my problem, or the Federal government's.

Phaenx 08-24-2003 10:30 PM

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Originally posted by Nizzle
A search for "medical marijuana" on Google does not return one single hit for a High Times article. If you can't be bothered to do even a cursory investigation, I feel I am wasting my time.

But to humor you, I searched for "medical marijuana" and limited results to .edu domains. Here's a large report from the Institute of Medicine (link here). Read the executive summary if nothing else. It covers every point previously cited in relation to psychological and physiological effects. It concludes, and states it in no uncertain terms, that although chronic use of marijuana has side effects, they are mild and short-lived. It goes extensively into benefits on cannabanoids in treatment of various disorders.
From that site: "Conclusion: Scientific data indicate the potential therapeutic value of cannabinoid drugs, primarily THC, for pain relief, control of nausea and vomiting, and appetite stimulation; smoked marijuana, however, is a crude THC delivery system that also delivers harmful substances."

I read the executive summary and I don't see where it says anything but withdrawal is mild as well, that site doesn't seem to support your claims.

I also read (albeit things I already knew) that there are other drugs that can do everything marijuana can, in most cases better.

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That entire response was completely devoid of any factual information. I'll just skip this part.
It's not factual? Take a look here at what you'd need to do to go to prison for possession in my state, Ohio. What's more plausible, that the 80% rise was due to hard drugs and dealers or kids with a bag of pot?

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I'm willing to discuss separating hard drugs from marijuana. Decriminalizing marijuana does not have to include heroin and other Schedule I substances. Ultimately I don't think punishing drug users has any value. And drug smugglers would not even exist if the item were not contraband. The U.S. war on drugs is entirely responsible for a class of criminals that would not otherwise exist. Eliminating this faction would be a huge benefit to everyone.
Drug smugglers will always exist, because there's no way in hell we're going to legalize every drug, and these dealers are in it for the money, take away pot and they're going to start dealing harder, more dangerous drugs. That certainly wouldn't be helping anyone.

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I don't know. Certainly a strong education program would need to come with legalization; and regulations to prevent cigarette companies from marketing heavily to teens.
Cigarette companies don't do that now, and they smoke anyways. Kids are stupid to begin with, the only way you're going to get pot away from them is by force.

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I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up. I never suggested that one should be legalized or criminalized because of the laws governing the other.
I was initially talking to someone else, which is why I brought alcohol up.

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I still don't see how someone smoking a joint in their own home has such a traumatic influence on your life. I accuse you of exaggerating. :) You have not even addressed the concern of medical marijuana in the treatment of glaucoma, chronic nausea and dizziness associated with HIV-fighting drugs and chemotherapy, and stimulating appetite.
^look up^

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You mean like how you are convinced that everyone opposing you is affiliated with High Times and have no scientists or doctors to back their claims?
Who said that? Not me.

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No, I simply have not heard any good arguments that make me question how I already feel. I hate to break this to you, but one report does not constitute proof of anything. The legalization of marijuana is a very potent political and social issue, and the people funding the research -- on both sides -- have a lot at stake on the contents of these reports. The point that I was trying to make earlier is that if you search, you will find people on both sides of the coin stating they have scientific proof of their side.
What do you mean one? I listed like 20.

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I still don't see how this is my problem, or the Federal government's.
It'll be your problem sooner or later when you have to work with, for or employ some of those toads.

Nizzle 08-25-2003 11:17 AM

Wow. If you actually read the IOM report and think it's on your side, you are seriously deluded.

I'm done.

Lebell 08-25-2003 02:54 PM

Keep it nice, please.

Johnny Rotten 08-25-2003 08:47 PM

What, what, what? The theoretical legalization of marijuana is hinging on its harmful effects? Apparently I have entered a Twilight Zone in which alcohol and tobacco do not exist :).

Seriously, I for one won't debate the harmful effects of marijuana. Short term memory loss, helpless stupidity, and, in some cases, debilitating apathy about elements important to your life, like hygeine, employment, and a social life.

But you could apply all of those symptoms to alcohol, respectfully, except for alcohol (and tobacco's) addictiveness.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that if I promote legalization, that doesn't mean I don't have a problem with kids sparking up a fatty. That's kind of silly. Regulate it and tax it. Severe fines for those caught growing it without a license. I don't think personal pot gardens will be such a problem, not compared to bathtub gin, or pouring rubbing alcohol through a loaf of rye bread.

Just treat it like alcohol. Can't drive and smoke. Can't drive while high. Can't smoke in a public place that doesn't have a license. I prefer pot over alcohol, because pot doesn't make you sick, doesn't make you think you can take on 300-pound Kung Fu masters, and is an order of magnitude less likely to negatively affect your life.

But it won't happen any time soon, with the pharmeceutical industry. Also, don't overlook hemp legalization, which the logging industry would put up an impressive fight against.

Alcohol is a drug. Cigarettes are a drug. Chew is a drug. Only one of them has some mildly positive health effects. Marijuana, however, has been proven to provide many health benefits.

A college friend of mine turned to marijuana when no legal antidepressant could help. Even though it's supposed to be a depressant, marijuana lifted his gloom and allowed him to be a successful, energetic, and social individual.

Marijuana is also a decidedly non-violent drug. You will never jones for marijuana. If you think you're jonesing for it, you've never tried heroin. That, my friend, is jonesing. Friend of mine had this anecdote, where he was asking someone how they'd quit marijuana, and the guy said, "I haven't quit. I just haven't scored in eleven years and two months." Marijuana will never do that to you.

Pot proponents will never be pushy.

"C'mon, man, have a drink! Loosen up! Drink it!!!"

"Never had a cigarette? Take a puff, be a man."

Marijuana?

"Hey, dude, you want a puff? No? Okay." Share and share alike. No one gets down on you if you don't want to try it. It's not for everybody. It's not a rite of passage. Just a thing you might want to do to have some fun, to lift your spirit, to take care of a headache, a stomach ache, etc.

Okay, no more rambling from me. If you don't like pot--that's your thing, I respect it. If you know somebody who became a loser because of it--yes, that happens. Though usually that's a symptom of a deeper problem in their life, not the pot itself. Unlike alcohol and tobacco, which can manifest their addictions irrespective of your life experience.

I personally think everyone should try it once. It's not like it makes your head explode or anything :). Don't want any? That's cool.

MacGnG 08-26-2003 07:51 PM

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Originally posted by Johnny Rotten
I personally think everyone should try it once. It's not like it makes your head explode or anything :). Don't want any? That's cool.
yea at least then you can say you have a reason not to like it, but if you just dont want to try it either thats ok too. it can be as strong or as weak as you make it.

everyone has a preference and a choice but just cause "it might be harmful" is no reason to dismiss the possibility of it's medical uses
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the only thing bad about pot is that you eat lots of cookies and chips :)

....and everything is "COOOOL DUUUDE!"
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haha i dont think alcohol or cigarettes will ever be banned in America seeing as how like 90% of the legal population use either one in some sort of way.

striker3303 08-27-2003 10:15 AM

Chickens dont' dance
 
My subject means nothing, however legalizing in the US is coming, drawing closer and closer every day. Where I live in Washington, you can be caught with marijuana and let off every time. People are caring less and less about this heaven sent drug. No I am not biast.

GarthInPittsburgh 08-27-2003 10:39 AM

If they had any brains they'd make it a state monopoly... assure the quality of it so people know what they're getting, and tax it... A lot of income for the country right there.

ObieX 08-29-2003 07:13 AM

I would like to point out that marijuana is not always smoked - many of the health problems proposed could be easily avoided. Cooking with marijuana is easy since its fat soluable... just warm it up in some butter and you're good to go. Most, if not all, of the other side effects are either only for the duration of the effect of the drug, or a personal life choice. ....also any woman who takes any drug during pregancy is asking for trouble - its just stupid.

I just find it funny that certain drugs are legal and legal by perscription that have far worse side-effects than marijuana. You can cure your depression but you'll have: diahrrea, sleepiness, cough, stuffy/runny nose, bloody urine, dilated pupils, nausea/vomiting, gas, headaches, skin irritation, itchiness, swelling, redness, rash, erectile disfunction, sexual side-effects, dehydration, dandruff, loss of skin pigmentation, and weight gain. But you wont be depressed!!!

Theresa 08-29-2003 01:56 PM

Personally, I hope that it isn't legalized. I am no conservative either.

If marijuana was legalized I can't imagine what kind of additives companies would put in our weed to make it more addictive than it already is. Just like they do to cigarettes.

The government would put high taxes on it. Or at least I assume they would. If you tried to grow it and sell some and didn't report it you would still be charged with money laundering like many growers are today.

I do think marijuana should be decriminalized though. We need to save jail cells for rapists, murderers, child pornographers, etc.

legolas 08-29-2003 09:51 PM

I don't know but it doens't look like anytime soon. No matter how many people are for it, it doesn't seem to pass.


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