Sparhawk

Ok, I hear over and over again from conservatives and republicans regarding taxes, and basing their reason for voting Republican on the fear that if they vote democrat, the democrat will raise taxes and give all the money to the unemployed.

Where do you (by you, I mean conservatives who believe this) get this opinion from/base it on? I mean, it was a democrat president that reformed welfare to what it is today, and it's pretty much a non-issue for both sides of this presidential campaign (and the last one). So I'm very curious as to why this bias persists.

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JamesS

Well the fact is that today their is somewhat of a deadlock in political discourse.

Republicans traditionally favor 'smaller' government, meaning a rollback in entitlements (social security, medicare, welfare, et cetera) and other programs which they feel are wasteful. However, they are paralyzed by the fact that these programs are immensely popular and that speaking against them would not be in their political interests. But to offset this, they speak of lowering taxes.

Democrats are seen as 'big spenders' and this has generally been borne out by reality. But, while the programs they champion are popular, the method which is used to pay for them, raising taxes, is usually a non-starter. You see the dilemma. Both parties are locked in an endless dance to convince the electorate that it can have have its cake and eat it too.

The system works best when the executive is controlled by one party and the Congress by another - as in your Clinton example.

The bias that exists, then, is one largely sustained by rhetoric; both sides today are too entrenched to advocate systemic change regarding these issues.

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Nizzle

Yes, if I were rich I would be concerned that a small portion of the money I made off of exploiting cheap laborers might be used to raise their standard of living to something decent. It's MY MONEY DAMN IT.

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Phaenx

Except by and large those people who are on welfare are lazy bastards who just don't feel like working. Get a job, lazy asses!

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

turkeyshoot9

It's really only the libertarians that are against welfare. (Not that that's a bad thing).

Nizzle

I assume you have facts to back up this claim, such as Fox News poll "Are You A Lazy Ass."

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Nizzle

Xell101

Go 10 minutes outside of Washington D.C. and behold, those who have been championed by the democrats. Then try to get good service at McDonalds. It is always fun since you never know what your gonna get or how it will be configured.

Fallon

Ya Phaenx, my mom who is disabled doesn't deserve any money from the government. She's a "lazy ass" because of her umpteen physical/mental ailments. Even though she can't really function without taking large amounts of pills EVERYDAY, she should still work her ass off to be just as good as the rest of us. She would work if she were able to, but she can't anymore, so no, she doesn't deserve any money because she's a "lazy ass".

There are lots of people that do not deserve it. I don't think that the programs should be taken away, but I think that they should be refined.

Zeld2.0

Hey hey don't bother arguing with Phaenx all his sayings have been the same and he won't change em because he's pure 100% republican though that party itself has turned drastically away from what it used to be just 13 years ago. (thats for the kansas statement)

Phaenx

C'mon, you're just mad everything I say is the written infallible word. Someone once told me that I can't be right about everything, but yet here I am, right about everything.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

TheKak

Some people really need the help, and some are lazy asses who wont do shit for themselves because they government will pay for them to live, and they just keep having kids because they get more money that way. I once personally met this redneck bitch who had 6 kids and hadnt worked in a long time because "why should I work if the govt will pay for everything I need". She thought it was hilarious, though I on the otherhand wanted to kick her in the throat.

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BigGov

This is why most conservatives are against welfare.

I'm very conservative, but I wouldn't mind taking the money in welfare and putting it all into a national health care program. That way it's put into something useful for everyone, not to some lazy ass who does nothing, is a poor parent, and keeps having kids. And I've seen a lot of those types here in Wisconsin, so don't say it never happens.

Lebell

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Xell101

I too have seen a lot of the welfare folk that basically qualify as bastard factories.

Nizzle

I've seen a lot of worthless people that have jobs.

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Nizzle

smooth

The argument against your underlying point isn't that there are no lazy people receiving welfare--it's that the amount of money they leech from the government is miniscule in relation to corporate leeches.

Since I suspect the average hard-working US citizen would be outraged if they knew the extent of where our public money actually gets squandered, the conservative party doesn't address those types of issues in public forums. Instead, they redirect the popular anger at an unpopular group--the poor--through a series of ideologies and institutions that perpetuate the cultural belief that poor people are in their social position due to a moral deficiency, that they have a worse work ethic than "us", and that they don't deserve or even desire better opportunities and commodities.

BigGov

I stayed at a house full of white trash last night. There are A LOT of people that do absolutly nothing to try to get back on their feet. I have seen how bad a family can get when they're given things like welfare. I've seen time and time again families just like that blow opportunity after opportunity. This part isn't an arguement or speculation, this is a straight-up, no-bullshit, 100% first hand observation.

That is why I'd rather put that money into a public health care system. Not only does it take care of a critical need of families in need, it also fills the need of everyone.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

123dsa

Putting all the political rhetoric aside the underlying idea behind welfare is the eliminate poverty. Poor/poverty is a relative term. The government draws some arbitrary line in the sand and says that if you're on one side then you're poor. The sad thing is that by simply moving a person to the other side of the line doesn't keep them from being poor. They still are poor in comparison to those who have more. In order for welfare to be a success it would have to eliminate both the rich and the poor. Sounds like socialism to me.

Oh,and before you lefties dismiss me as crazy, think about this: the standard of living of the "poor" in the US is many times greater than the kings of the 15th century. (running water, indoor plumbing, etc.) I have a secret for you-there will always be poor people. Stop telling them they deserve more because entightlement programs kill the little bit of pride/drive that the lower class has.

Fallon sorry about you're mom. That suxors. Sit down some time and figure out how much it cost to keep her comfortable (alive) and then objectively decide if one human life is worth that much. Why should your mother be worth more just because she's sick. All the money in the world won't keep her from dying eventually.

123dsa

One more thing-I mean no offense. And I'm not a republican.

LSD

BigGov

Watch the end of Scarbourough Country on MSNBC. He highlights government spending that is insanely useless and is often $500,000 to millions. Programs like that are what people should be offended about.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Fallon

No, I'm not going to sit down and do that, she's not handicapped to the extent she's not capable of living. She can do that, but she can't do much else. She has almost daily doctor visits.

With your logic 123dsa, we should let you die too. We all die eventually. She enjoys her life as much as she can even through the pain she goes through phyiscally and mentally. It hurts her to have to be on government aid because she never liked accepting aid, but she has to do it anyway.

reconmike

I think the issue is not those who are sick and "need" assistance,
but those who abuse the hell out of the system.

Get every single welfare recieptiant in the welfare office and have a doctor look them over, if you are able bodied no soup for you.

There has to be a point where the system says no more.

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BigGov

Then you have people fucking themselves up on purpose.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

123dsa

Fallon-I'm glad you're seeing the light. Try looking at the problem from the outside. The fact that she is your mother changes your view. I don't really think it's plausible to put a dollar value on life, but I think we spend entirely too much government money (read my money) on postponing the inevitable.

Health services should be available to those who can afford them. It is only logical. I want a new car. I currently do not have the money for the car I want, hence I do not have the car. Quality of life issue are bullshit. If you can afford it great, if not, you don't deserve it.

***Please note that I am saying that nobody deserves or is owed medicine/luxuries, entightlement is crap. If you can buy it great***

reconmike

If someone wants to go to this extreme to get the hand out, so be it.

Hell being the venture capitalist that I am I will open an Ill fuck up up enough shop so you can stay on welfare. Ill be rich$$$$ Then I can pay more tax to help those that I helped disable.

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Where is Darwin when ya need him?

BigGov

Ahhhh, the cycle of life.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

archer2371

There are cases where that's allready happening, and a good deal of people are committing fraud by getting doctors to say that they are indeed unable to work. I have no problem at all with helping poor people, if I had it my way, everyone would be rich and the whole thing would be solved and everyone would be happy. Now that my idealistic side has had a chance to do a little frolicking, back to reality. We can't do away with welfare, it is too popular, but we can reform it to make it better. By making sure that people aren't committing any kind of fraud, whether it be by personally inflicting wounds upon themselves or getting doctors to say they are disabled, and other stuff like that. I'm not so sure about a National Health Care Plan, because I've seen what it does in England and it basically cancels out any competition and leaves only one choice, which is the Government's Health Care, which moves slower than molasses. Now I have no clue about any of the details for our NHCP, if it left competition out there to give a better product to the consumers, then sure, I might be onboard for that bill, and it gave the help to those who really needed it and can't afford the more expensive, but quality health care offered by HMOs (another thing that needs reform, but that's another story). This is like one of the few issues that I'm not so gung-ho totally Republican about, I may be conservative about it, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to people that really do need the help and just write them all off as lazy asses who won't get a job.

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funbob

Republican, Democrat, both parties are guilty of milking us. Both parites want your money, want to spend it on "Their" programs, so dont think that one or the other is the right party, thye both want "Your" money!!!

Phaenx

The "right" "program" is the one Republicans support. The military! I personally would like to have a few more bombs rather then a bunch of bums trading their food stamps for booze.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Fallon

And I'd rather have a few more bucks for my mom to get food for us, then a couple more bombs.

Darkblack

See the difference is for some people, everyone matters, for other's, only "I" matter.

Zeld2.0

The military already costs more than welfare, if anything, boosting them would only make taxes go up now (not that they need anymore boosting at this point).

As for welfare.. reform is defenitely needed. Theres a lot of people abusing the system - thats something everyone can agree upon. There are people out there who truly need it to make ends meet while they take on multiple jobs just to feed the kids and pay the rent. They deserve it. Then there are those who sit at home and wait for the check. They don't.

And by your logic 123dsa, then all of us should be dead because its "inevitable."

And what if you were crippled? Are you going to put a gun to your head and say that its inevitable? Or maybe one of your loved ones.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that others should suffer because you felt that extra dollar wasn't going to make someone else happier.

BigGov

archer2371. Canada is supposed to have a really good public health care system. And overall ours can be better than any other countries as long as we take the time and spend the money.

And the military will always cost a lot because the number one expense for the military is troops.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Zeld2.0

time to go for cheap mass produced robots time

imagine if we didn't have to pay all those troops and had much cheaper ways to fight...

as for health care - i agree that the U.S. health care system could be boosted greatly - ever been to some European countries? its pretty amazing how different / improved it is


but i'd say the reason the U.S. really won't be going anywhere is simple - its too stubborn

people will always say "well they did it in the past so i'll keep it this way" - too stubborn and so we will always have the same feelings / style of living

archer2371

When did I mention Canada?

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

Xell101

I think that the national government should only do what can't be done locally, since the money didn't exist till I earned it, it is mine, but I need the government, so it should try to do as much as possible with as little possible of my money. Welfare doesn't strike me as being very necessary.

BigGov

archer, just trying to point out it can be done very effectively.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

archer2371

Oh yeah, I agree, it can be done effectively, it just has to be done a certain way to be effective. I.E. (and no offense meant to the English at all) not like England's Health Care.

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

BigGov

Then again, Welfare also illustrates a lot about how bad politicians are. They try to please everyone and do everything instead of doing a small list of the absolute essetials and do them very well. Instead if there's a problem somewhere, they just throw money at it and assume it's solved. If it isn't solved the first time, they throw more money and again think it should be solved.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

123dsa

Zeld-
I DO have close family members that are sick/dying. I still reject the idea that any human life is worth the amount of money spent through welfare/medicare/medicaid. Why do the poor "deserve" something for free that the more productive pay for themselves? That question is at the heart of the issue for me. I personally can't understand what sort of miserable lives people live who care more about making others happy than themselves. Self-depreciation is not a virtue.

LSD