Welfare - Let's hear from the conservatives on this one - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

123dsa · 08-15-2003, 05:38 AM

BTW I don't care if my tax dollars are going to make somebody else happier Zeld. Neither do I expect others to care if their taxes make me happier. I know what's best for me. Don't expect me to care if others choose a course of poverty that I myself do not choose.

The EU is the perfect example of the illogical interest in the well-being of others. Inidvidual countries forfeit the right to make fiscal/monetary decisions based upon what's best for the group. Soon they'll all be paid the same... Socialism is nothing to admire. I prefer a more individualist/objectivist view.

LSD

Nizzle · 08-15-2003, 08:44 AM

Self-depreciation is not a virtue.

Tell that to Mother Teresa. I guess Greed is the virtue of the modern age.

prosequence · 08-15-2003, 02:29 PM

Canada post - Canada has been able to separate the Wellfare cases from Healthcare cases a little better than some. however we do still have a huge amount of abuse of the system that has to change. And for "smooth" who mentioned it's a small amount being leeched.... a leech is a leech... may not be taking one but do you want one attached to your groin ? Do not confuse those who are handicapped with those who are EXPECTING a Handout.

smooth · 08-15-2003, 02:40 PM

Well, I actually stated that they were "relatively" small as compared to corporate leeches. But my point holds and has been substantiated in numerous journals and research--if you want to "fix" the problem go after the people causing the most damage first.

I'm not going to belabor the point with people uneducated on the subject--I would rather focus my time on my students; if anyone wants to research my point further search for "wealthfare."

edit:
Oh shit, it's not in my nature to let people wallow in their ignorance:

prosequence · 08-15-2003, 02:58 PM

I agree Smooth, I have never been on welfare before so I definately qualify as uneducated in that area. I bow before your experience and education.
Hmm, anyone have some salt? I think there a leech on my....

Dibbler · 08-21-2003, 05:17 PM

Giving money to the poor for no other reason then they're "poor" makes their survival too dependent on the government and also the whimes of the government. This creates a socialist system and gives the federal government way too much control of the people. The bill of rights means nothing if the government can contol your life simply by decreasing your monthly check if you're not doing what THEY want.

The government needs to reel in the businesses who send jobs overseas. Tell them, " If you lose American jobs overseas, you need to pitch in more money to help out the people you just screwed." Maybe this would stop the plant closings that have been increasing the number of poor.

reconmike · 08-21-2003, 06:40 PM

So Smooth what your charts show is that the US government would rather pay corporations to stay in America, and keep people who want to work working and pay more taxes than giving money to most people who like the hand out?

This is ok in my book.

smooth · 08-21-2003, 06:52 PM

Actually reconmike, those corporate giveaways don't even attempt to reward corporations for employing US citizens. If that were the case, I would be supportive of at least some of them.

One could (and many people do) argue that tax subsidies to coporations and wealthy individuals automatically results in domestic job stability and creation. If that were the driving force, however, such subsidies would hinge on corporations actually expanding domestically--but they don't.

It would be a simple process to state, for example and by no means exhaustive, that for every job or business created domestically, X amount of tax credit accrues. That isn't what is going on. Instead we say, here's X amount of money--do what you want with it (and I don't have a problem with people doing what they want with their money, but this is tax money--our money) and we hope you create a job with it. There isn't anything preventing that same corporation from using our tax money to create a tech service in India, relocate the production from here to there, provide the service to US citizens, and reap the profit (tax free now, of course).

From that perspective we seem to be doing everything bass-ackward. We give exhorbitant amounts of money to the rich, hope they will create domestic jobs, bitch when they relocate abroad, and complain about the lazy people on the "dole" who were kicked to the streets when their corporation left stateside.

JBX · 08-21-2003, 08:00 PM

Lets break this down to the basics. The Federal Government is not supposed to be there to aid in every human ailment. Until recently, none of theses programs that are now a part of our fabric did not exist. Your mom is sick, the family pulled together and cared for her. How is it the Federal Government responsibility to care for your mom? WE have created a whole generation dependent on the Fed's. I personally know people who don't work because the benifits and incoming cash is better on social services. The more children you have the better. So now it's the taxpayers responsibility to feed those children. It never ends. Go to work Sucker... we need a tax base to pay for all the services.

JBX · 08-21-2003, 08:06 PM

smooth, tax breaks go to TAXPAYERS. All the others are entitlement programs.

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
Well, I actually stated that they were "relatively" small as compared to corporate leeches. But my point holds and has been substantiated in numerous journals and research--if you want to "fix" the problem go after the people causing the most damage first.

I'm not going to belabor the point with people uneducated on the subject--I would rather focus my time on my students; if anyone wants to research my point further search for "wealthfare."

edit:
Oh shit, it's not in my nature to let people wallow in their ignorance:

Zeld2.0 · 08-22-2003, 02:12 PM

I don't know why people keep coming here to say the same things:

I think EVERYONE agrees that the idiots who abuse the system are the reason why its broken.

But i think everyone also agrees there are those who deserve the aid because they are being productive.

The problem is, the entire system of paying and not to mention the theory of trickle-down has been proven in history time and time again that it doens't fix the issues. The system(s) are broke and need reform.

BigGov · 08-22-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

But i think everyone also agrees there are those who deserve the aid because they are being productive.

I don't think anyone deserves welfare. Being productive should in the end earn you money.

You're paying people to sit on their ass and do nothing. A certain amount will make it on their own because that's their attitude. Another amount will do absolutely nothing because they're getting a paycheck for doing nothing.

The system doesn't need reform, the system needs to be nixed.

starvingeyes · 08-22-2003, 05:19 PM

as jimmy4 said, nobody deserves welfare. nobody deserves one penny they didn't earn by working, including corporations. wealthfare, welfare, both programs are a different version of the same disease.

blackdas · 08-22-2003, 11:48 PM

The health care system in Canada...its funny seeing Canadians brag about their free health care which is payed through taxes. I'm glad we don't use their system; since I am successful I should be able to see a better doctor than the average person.

Nizzle · 08-23-2003, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackdas
The health care system in Canada...its funny seeing Canadians brag about their free health care which is payed through taxes. I'm glad we don't use their system; since I am successful I should be able to see a better doctor than the average person.

I think you should do more research on the Canadian socialized health care system before you make such remarks. Canadians are well aware that they pay for the health care safety net through higher taxes. Believe it or not, the vast majority of Canadians want this. Congratulations on being successful; most people aren't. So I'd say your opinion is vastly unpopular.

It's not a perfect system. Some wealthy people go so far as to cross the border to receive care. But they can afford the luxury.

And the bottom line is, when these sick people you don't care about have to go to the emergency room, you end up picking it up in taxes anyway.

Zeld2.0 · 08-23-2003, 02:40 PM

Being productive doesn't mean you make money. Thats why workers in the past could work 14 hours a day for 7 days a week and still not make enough.

The fact is, people have to take shit jobs in society to make society work. They're going to be exploited and fucked with whether or not they are honest normal citizens.

IMO though, its an investment - if they can do it well enough so their next generation jumps up the social ladder, its a success.

On the other hand.. there are those who would rather sit at home and watch TV all day and screw their own children up.

Oh and for that one, being productive will not always make ends meet - if they don't deserve a penny for being productive then you might as well take their low salaries away sire!

08-15-2003, 08:44 AM	#42 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	Self-depreciation is not a virtue. Tell that to Mother Teresa. I guess Greed is the virtue of the modern age. __________________ Nizzle

08-15-2003, 02:29 PM	#43 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Canada post - Canada has been able to separate the Wellfare cases from Healthcare cases a little better than some. however we do still have a huge amount of abuse of the system that has to change. And for "smooth" who mentioned it's a small amount being leeched.... a leech is a leech... may not be taking one but do you want one attached to your groin ? Do not confuse those who are handicapped with those who are EXPECTING a Handout. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-15-2003, 02:40 PM	#44 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Well, I actually stated that they were "relatively" small as compared to corporate leeches. But my point holds and has been substantiated in numerous journals and research--if you want to "fix" the problem go after the people causing the most damage first. I'm not going to belabor the point with people uneducated on the subject--I would rather focus my time on my students; if anyone wants to research my point further search for "wealthfare." edit: Oh shit, it's not in my nature to let people wallow in their ignorance: __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 08-15-2003 at 02:45 PM..

08-15-2003, 02:58 PM	#45 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	I agree Smooth, I have never been on welfare before so I definately qualify as uneducated in that area. I bow before your experience and education. Hmm, anyone have some salt? I think there a leech on my.... __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-21-2003, 06:40 PM	#47 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	So Smooth what your charts show is that the US government would rather pay corporations to stay in America, and keep people who want to work working and pay more taxes than giving money to most people who like the hand out? This is ok in my book. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him? Last edited by reconmike; 08-21-2003 at 06:47 PM..

08-15-2003, 05:38 AM	#41 (permalink)
123dsa Crazy Location: KY	BTW I don't care if my tax dollars are going to make somebody else happier Zeld. Neither do I expect others to care if their taxes make me happier. I know what's best for me. Don't expect me to care if others choose a course of poverty that I myself do not choose. The EU is the perfect example of the illogical interest in the well-being of others. Inidvidual countries forfeit the right to make fiscal/monetary decisions based upon what's best for the group. Soon they'll all be paid the same... Socialism is nothing to admire. I prefer a more individualist/objectivist view. LSD

08-21-2003, 05:17 PM	#46 (permalink)
Dibbler Psycho Location: Initech, Iowa	Giving money to the poor for no other reason then they're "poor" makes their survival too dependent on the government and also the whimes of the government. This creates a socialist system and gives the federal government way too much control of the people. The bill of rights means nothing if the government can contol your life simply by decreasing your monthly check if you're not doing what THEY want. The government needs to reel in the businesses who send jobs overseas. Tell them, " If you lose American jobs overseas, you need to pitch in more money to help out the people you just screwed." Maybe this would stop the plant closings that have been increasing the number of poor.

08-21-2003, 06:52 PM	#48 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Actually reconmike, those corporate giveaways don't even attempt to reward corporations for employing US citizens. If that were the case, I would be supportive of at least some of them. One could (and many people do) argue that tax subsidies to coporations and wealthy individuals automatically results in domestic job stability and creation. If that were the driving force, however, such subsidies would hinge on corporations actually expanding domestically--but they don't. It would be a simple process to state, for example and by no means exhaustive, that for every job or business created domestically, X amount of tax credit accrues. That isn't what is going on. Instead we say, here's X amount of money--do what you want with it (and I don't have a problem with people doing what they want with their money, but this is tax money--our money) and we hope you create a job with it. There isn't anything preventing that same corporation from using our tax money to create a tech service in India, relocate the production from here to there, provide the service to US citizens, and reap the profit (tax free now, of course). From that perspective we seem to be doing everything bass-ackward. We give exhorbitant amounts of money to the rich, hope they will create domestic jobs, bitch when they relocate abroad, and complain about the lazy people on the "dole" who were kicked to the streets when their corporation left stateside. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

08-21-2003, 08:00 PM	#49 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	Lets break this down to the basics. The Federal Government is not supposed to be there to aid in every human ailment. Until recently, none of theses programs that are now a part of our fabric did not exist. Your mom is sick, the family pulled together and cared for her. How is it the Federal Government responsibility to care for your mom? WE have created a whole generation dependent on the Fed's. I personally know people who don't work because the benifits and incoming cash is better on social services. The more children you have the better. So now it's the taxpayers responsibility to feed those children. It never ends. Go to work Sucker... we need a tax base to pay for all the services. __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

08-22-2003, 02:12 PM	#51 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	I don't know why people keep coming here to say the same things: I think EVERYONE agrees that the idiots who abuse the system are the reason why its broken. But i think everyone also agrees there are those who deserve the aid because they are being productive. The problem is, the entire system of paying and not to mention the theory of trickle-down has been proven in history time and time again that it doens't fix the issues. The system(s) are broke and need reform.

08-22-2003, 05:19 PM	#53 (permalink)
starvingeyes Upright Location: canada	as jimmy4 said, nobody deserves welfare. nobody deserves one penny they didn't earn by working, including corporations. wealthfare, welfare, both programs are a different version of the same disease. __________________ i'd rather die on my feet then live on my knees

08-22-2003, 11:48 PM	#54 (permalink)
blackdas Crazy	The health care system in Canada...its funny seeing Canadians brag about their free health care which is payed through taxes. I'm glad we don't use their system; since I am successful I should be able to see a better doctor than the average person.

08-23-2003, 02:40 PM	#56 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Being productive doesn't mean you make money. Thats why workers in the past could work 14 hours a day for 7 days a week and still not make enough. The fact is, people have to take shit jobs in society to make society work. They're going to be exploited and fucked with whether or not they are honest normal citizens. IMO though, its an investment - if they can do it well enough so their next generation jumps up the social ladder, its a success. On the other hand.. there are those who would rather sit at home and watch TV all day and screw their own children up. Oh and for that one, being productive will not always make ends meet - if they don't deserve a penny for being productive then you might as well take their low salaries away sire!