What should we do in Afghanistan? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ASU2003 · 05-11-2011, 10:20 AM

Three options for Obama in Afghanistan – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

I'm not sure what the 'real' mission was there in the first place besides taking out terror camps, but the big question now seems to be, what do you do with the Taliban? Do we leave and let them take Afghanistan back to 1990 laws? Have we killed enough of the extremists that the Taliban would be in the minority? If we were able to get the Taliban down to 10%, would they just use gang techniques to intimidate or kill their opposition until people had no choice but to support them?

My idea today was that we should give a free 5 to 10-day trip to Mecca to any person who will turn in a gun or RPG. Then on the trip show them how the rest of the Islamic world lives.

Willravel · 05-11-2011, 11:42 AM

We should leave.

aceventura3 · 05-11-2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

We should leave.

Ditto.

Baraka_Guru · 05-11-2011, 11:55 AM

The least that should be done immediately is a withdrawal of combat/counterinsurgency forces and replacing the operations with a centralized counter-terrorism operation (option 2 in the article). That's now. It should have happened a while ago now, long before Bin Laden's death.

This should eventually be tapered down to leaving entirely once the government and security forces in Afghanistan can prove that they can stand on their own.

There is no need to make it easy for a backslide into fundamentalism or theocracy.

The best-case scenario would see a complete withdrawal by the end of the year, but that's being a bit too hopeful I think.

hunnychile · 05-11-2011, 02:10 PM

Leave.

Leave Now.

What's to gain? Nothing but more injured US Soldiers.

SuburbanZombie · 05-11-2011, 06:12 PM

Another vote for leave now. Shouldn't have been there in the first place regardless of OBL or the Taliban. They made their bed, let them sleep in it.

Charlatan · 05-11-2011, 06:33 PM

I think the efforts in Afghanistan were warranted. The Taliban was/is a scourge that needed to be ousted. Quite frankly, it was largely the USA's fault that the rise of the Taliban came about, through the massive funding and arming of the Mujaheddin (though one could also argue that the Soviet invasion played a part as well). In other words, it was one of the bigger messes left over from the Cold War and it needed to be fixed (regardless of Osama bin Laden).

What is frustrating is the fact that Bush and co. shifted the emphasis to Iraq and left Afghanistan to flap in the wind (I exaggerate but not much). I would like to see a more International effort in place and a plan to help rebuild rather than just conquer. I don't care if Afghanistan doesn't become a Liberal Democracy, rather, I just want to see them try and return to what they had before the Soviet invasion descended upon them...

Willravel · 05-11-2011, 07:55 PM

It seems like every time we try to clean up our mess, we create another one. I'm concerned that even if we stay in Afghanistan for the 10+ years it will likely take to really put a dent in the Taliban, we're just going to be creating the next generation of resentment and fundamentalism that our children will be fighting.

I'd like these cycles to come to an end.

Charlatan · 05-11-2011, 08:03 PM

I suppose you could get out of Afghanistan and offer to resettle those who don't want to be ruled by the Taliban...

dlish · 05-11-2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I suppose you could get out of Afghanistan and offer to resettle those who don't want to be ruled by the Taliban...

heres why that won't work. Your saying that those that dont want to live under taliban rule can be resettled. The Hazari's are Shia, and are almost 10% of the population and from memory a vast majority of the population of Mazhar-e-Sharif.

resettling 3Million Hazaris and another 3 million afghan Shia's is not going to work. The other option would be to split afghanistan up and create a new country for the shia's, which could backfire because:

1) youd be dividing and conquering and the USA would look like total assholes with hidden agendas for breaking up the country. Bad bad Amrika!

2) if you do, then you'd be one step close to having an ignorant shia population that could rule with theorcracy (think Iran - although Iranians by and large are educated. so id hate to see an ignorant Shia theocracy take shape)

3) you'd have two problems to deal with instead of 1

4) having the possibility of sectraian strife between two ethically different failed states and the chance of creating more division and war.

i have more to say on this, but i ill do this when i have some time and im not at work

Quote:

Afghanistan Demographics Profile 2011
Home > Afghanistan

Population
29,835,392
note: this is a significantly revised figure; the previous estimate of 33,609,937 was extrapolated from the last Afghan census held in 1979, which was never completed because of the Soviet invasion; a new Afghan census is scheduled to take place in 2010 (July 2011 est.)

Age structure
0-14 years: 42.3% (male 6,464,070/female 6,149,468)
15-64 years: 55.3% (male 8,460,486/female 8,031,968)
65 years and over: 2.4% (male 349,349/female 380,051) (2011 est.)

Median age
total: 18.2 years
male: 18.2 years
female: 18.2 years (2011 est.)

Population growth rate
2.375% (2011 est.)

Birth rate
37.83 births/1,000 population (2011 est.)

Death rate
17.39 deaths/1,000 population (July 2011 est.)

Net migration rate
3.31 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2011 est.)

Urbanization
urban population: 23% of total population (2010)
rate of urbanization: 4.7% annual rate of change (2010-15 est.)

Sex ratio
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.92 male(s)/female
total population: 1.05 male(s)/female (2011 est.)

Infant mortality rate
total: 149.2 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 152.75 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 145.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2011 est.)

Life expectancy at birth
total population: 45.02 years
male: 44.79 years
female: 45.25 years (2011 est.)

Total fertility rate
5.39 children born/woman (2011 est.)

HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate
0.01% (2001 est.)

HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS
NA

HIV/AIDS - deaths
NA

Major infectious diseases
degree of risk: high
food or waterborne diseases: bacterial and protozoal diarrhea, hepatitis A, and typhoid fever
vectorborne disease: malaria
animal contact disease: rabies
note: highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza has been identified in this country; it poses a negligible risk with extremely rare cases possible among US citizens who have close contact with birds (2009)

Nationality
noun: Afghan(s)
adjective: Afghan

Ethnic groups
Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Hazara 9%, Uzbek 9%, Aimak 4%, Turkmen 3%, Baloch 2%, other 4%

Religions
Sunni Muslim 80%, Shia Muslim 19%, other 1%

Languages
Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 50%, Pashto (official) 35%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism

Literacy
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 28.1%
male: 43.1%
female: 12.6% (2000 est.)

School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education)
total: 9 years
male: 11 years
female: 7 years (2009)

Education expenditures
NA

Charlatan · 05-11-2011, 10:02 PM

dlish... I wasn't suggesting it as a plausible solution but rather as a ridiculous, over-the-top suggestion.

As soon as the US started arming and financing both the Mujaheddin and Pakistan in an effort to fuck with the Soviets, they committed themselves to this region. I think too many here forget why the Taliban came into power in the first place.

The US and the Soviet Union have a lot to answer for... and eradicating the Taliban is one of the prices the US should pay (in lives and treasure if need be).

Willravel · 05-11-2011, 10:29 PM

I think we should relocate them to Jerusalem!

dlish · 05-11-2011, 10:36 PM

or Iran....
or the US of A

samcol · 05-12-2011, 12:41 PM

GTFO.

dlish · 05-12-2011, 11:41 PM

i think the US needs to look at the demographics and see whether they can rehabilitate the nation. The US, whether they like it or not has a lot to answer for, for what afghanistan became, and where it is headed.

almost half the population is illiterate, 40% of the population is under 15 years of age, the school life expectancy for males and females is abysmal.

The only thing that can save the place is through implementing education aid programs. If they stuck it out another 15 years, and introduced an education system that worked, we'd at least have more than 50% of the population reading and writing. This would trickle into business and may actually make people want to put down their guns. right now, they have nothing to lose, and a seemingly never-ending war is not going to help either side.

to recap our achievments so far is A'stan - we've toppled a bunch of rag-tags, we set up a corrupt government in its place, and we killed a few terrorists that will only breed further hate.

ASU is kind of on the right path i think. However, what a ticket to Mecca costs is probably what these guys earn in 10 years. using that money to provide training to start businesses i think would be a better idea. having something to work for in order to run their businesses and keep their families fed would probably work. The only question is. how can this be implemented without a military presence?

Charlatan · 05-13-2011, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

The only question is. how can this be implemented without a military presence?

That's pretty much my only question as well.

If the Afghan government was secure and strong enough on its own, it might just be enough.

ASU2003 · 05-13-2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

ASU is kind of on the right path i think. However, what a ticket to Mecca costs is probably what these guys earn in 10 years. using that money to provide training to start businesses i think would be a better idea. having something to work for in order to run their businesses and keep their families fed would probably work. The only question is. how can this be implemented without a military presence?

And how many of them have been to Mecca in the past 30 years? How many of them have traveled outside of Afghanistan or Pakistan? Do they even get news about Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and Morocco?

The money issue is one small piece to this. As a US tax payer, I have spent enough to fly someone to Mecca and back. Just get Emirate Air to fly them, and have the Afghans doing the work. And I think it would be a cheap way to transition and pull back the US troops and reduce the weapons of the Taliban, while hoping that they will lead a peaceful Muslim life instead of a violent one by seeing that there are lots of other religious Muslim countries that the US is not in. It won't look like they surrendered, but that both sides can claim they won.

The US military, diplomats, and Afghan politicians need to come up with a clear plan and outline of what condition we want Afghanistan in. And I don't see it happening fast enough.

boink · 05-15-2011, 12:12 AM

Hudson: Let's just bug out and call it even, man ! What are we even talking about this for?

Ourcrazymodern? · 05-16-2011, 02:46 PM

I think, boink, it's being discussed because noone can believe Obama read his history so inaccurately, & I agree with all who agreed with samcol. Afghanistan would be a silly place for the USAEmpire to die.

Charlatan · 05-16-2011, 04:51 PM

About as sad a place as it was for the Soviet Empire to die.

The irony would be priceless.

Ourcrazymodern? · 05-16-2011, 05:51 PM

Can I agree in politics?

chinese crested · 06-03-2011, 12:28 AM

Its all a bit murky isnt it. Invade Afghanistan looking for Osama - although some said he was nearer oil fields near the coast, and he couldnt be near them, so we took them on the way to capturing him I guess.
The people we call terrorists now, were freedom fighters when it suited us. We should leave and stop making excuses to invade other peoples on some sort of crusade to bring enforced 'democracy' - and some profit.
Stop sending our kids home in boxes, just send them home. They are not properly kitted out. Why wasnt Ewan Blair in Basra along side other sons involved in the fighting? Why do those who cause war, who rally on lies, why do they not send their own children in? Least then when they say to grieving parents 'I know how you feel' - it wont be another lot of bullshit. Where were the Bush offspring involved in the fighting? Afghanistan is never truly beaten/taken.

thesurgeon · 06-03-2011, 02:10 PM

Can't help but notice Afghanistan and Pakistan form a rough circle on the map, maybe a bit mushroom shaped, with the blast centre - I mean middle - a place called Gajoy, if you know what I mean.

chinese crested · 06-05-2011, 12:11 AM

For a feel of the place and the humanity of our soldiers - try reading 'One Dog at a Time' - rescuing the strays of Helmund written by Pen Farthing - an extraordinary ordinary soldier - in my opinion.
Some families have continual bickering amongst themselves - and woe betide anyone who intervenes in a 'domestic', some countries are the same - Iraq being one of them. It will always be this way.

05-11-2011, 10:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	What should we do in Afghanistan? Three options for Obama in Afghanistan – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs I'm not sure what the 'real' mission was there in the first place besides taking out terror camps, but the big question now seems to be, what do you do with the Taliban? Do we leave and let them take Afghanistan back to 1990 laws? Have we killed enough of the extremists that the Taliban would be in the minority? If we were able to get the Taliban down to 10%, would they just use gang techniques to intimidate or kill their opposition until people had no choice but to support them? My idea today was that we should give a free 5 to 10-day trip to Mecca to any person who will turn in a gun or RPG. Then on the trip show them how the rest of the Islamic world lives.

05-11-2011, 11:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The least that should be done immediately is a withdrawal of combat/counterinsurgency forces and replacing the operations with a centralized counter-terrorism operation (option 2 in the article). That's now. It should have happened a while ago now, long before Bin Laden's death. This should eventually be tapered down to leaving entirely once the government and security forces in Afghanistan can prove that they can stand on their own. There is no need to make it easy for a backslide into fundamentalism or theocracy. The best-case scenario would see a complete withdrawal by the end of the year, but that's being a bit too hopeful I think. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-11-2011, 02:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	Leave. Leave Now. What's to gain? Nothing but more injured US Soldiers. __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

05-11-2011, 06:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I think the efforts in Afghanistan were warranted. The Taliban was/is a scourge that needed to be ousted. Quite frankly, it was largely the USA's fault that the rise of the Taliban came about, through the massive funding and arming of the Mujaheddin (though one could also argue that the Soviet invasion played a part as well). In other words, it was one of the bigger messes left over from the Cold War and it needed to be fixed (regardless of Osama bin Laden). What is frustrating is the fact that Bush and co. shifted the emphasis to Iraq and left Afghanistan to flap in the wind (I exaggerate but not much). I would like to see a more International effort in place and a plan to help rebuild rather than just conquer. I don't care if Afghanistan doesn't become a Liberal Democracy, rather, I just want to see them try and return to what they had before the Soviet invasion descended upon them... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-11-2011, 08:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I suppose you could get out of Afghanistan and offer to resettle those who don't want to be ruled by the Taliban... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-11-2011, 11:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	We should leave.

05-11-2011, 06:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
SuburbanZombie Upright Location: Suburban Bliss	Another vote for leave now. Shouldn't have been there in the first place regardless of OBL or the Taliban. They made their bed, let them sleep in it.

05-11-2011, 07:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It seems like every time we try to clean up our mess, we create another one. I'm concerned that even if we stay in Afghanistan for the 10+ years it will likely take to really put a dent in the Taliban, we're just going to be creating the next generation of resentment and fundamentalism that our children will be fighting. I'd like these cycles to come to an end.

05-11-2011, 10:02 PM	#11 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	dlish... I wasn't suggesting it as a plausible solution but rather as a ridiculous, over-the-top suggestion. As soon as the US started arming and financing both the Mujaheddin and Pakistan in an effort to fuck with the Soviets, they committed themselves to this region. I think too many here forget why the Taliban came into power in the first place. The US and the Soviet Union have a lot to answer for... and eradicating the Taliban is one of the prices the US should pay (in lives and treasure if need be). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-11-2011, 10:29 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I think we should relocate them to Jerusalem!

05-11-2011, 10:36 PM	#13 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	or Iran.... or the US of A __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-12-2011, 12:41 PM	#14 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	GTFO. __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

05-12-2011, 11:41 PM	#15 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i think the US needs to look at the demographics and see whether they can rehabilitate the nation. The US, whether they like it or not has a lot to answer for, for what afghanistan became, and where it is headed. almost half the population is illiterate, 40% of the population is under 15 years of age, the school life expectancy for males and females is abysmal. The only thing that can save the place is through implementing education aid programs. If they stuck it out another 15 years, and introduced an education system that worked, we'd at least have more than 50% of the population reading and writing. This would trickle into business and may actually make people want to put down their guns. right now, they have nothing to lose, and a seemingly never-ending war is not going to help either side. to recap our achievments so far is A'stan - we've toppled a bunch of rag-tags, we set up a corrupt government in its place, and we killed a few terrorists that will only breed further hate. ASU is kind of on the right path i think. However, what a ticket to Mecca costs is probably what these guys earn in 10 years. using that money to provide training to start businesses i think would be a better idea. having something to work for in order to run their businesses and keep their families fed would probably work. The only question is. how can this be implemented without a military presence? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-15-2011, 12:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	Hudson: Let's just bug out and call it even, man ! What are we even talking about this for? __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way. Last edited by boink; 05-15-2011 at 08:36 PM..

05-16-2011, 02:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I think, boink, it's being discussed because noone can believe Obama read his history so inaccurately, & I agree with all who agreed with samcol. Afghanistan would be a silly place for the USAEmpire to die. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

05-16-2011, 04:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	About as sad a place as it was for the Soviet Empire to die. The irony would be priceless. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-16-2011, 05:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Can I agree in politics? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

06-03-2011, 12:28 AM	#22 (permalink)
chinese crested Insane Location: hampshire	Its all a bit murky isnt it. Invade Afghanistan looking for Osama - although some said he was nearer oil fields near the coast, and he couldnt be near them, so we took them on the way to capturing him I guess. The people we call terrorists now, were freedom fighters when it suited us. We should leave and stop making excuses to invade other peoples on some sort of crusade to bring enforced 'democracy' - and some profit. Stop sending our kids home in boxes, just send them home. They are not properly kitted out. Why wasnt Ewan Blair in Basra along side other sons involved in the fighting? Why do those who cause war, who rally on lies, why do they not send their own children in? Least then when they say to grieving parents 'I know how you feel' - it wont be another lot of bullshit. Where were the Bush offspring involved in the fighting? Afghanistan is never truly beaten/taken.

06-03-2011, 02:10 PM	#23 (permalink)
thesurgeon Upright	Can't help but notice Afghanistan and Pakistan form a rough circle on the map, maybe a bit mushroom shaped, with the blast centre - I mean middle - a place called Gajoy, if you know what I mean.

06-05-2011, 12:11 AM	#24 (permalink)
chinese crested Insane Location: hampshire	For a feel of the place and the humanity of our soldiers - try reading 'One Dog at a Time' - rescuing the strays of Helmund written by Pen Farthing - an extraordinary ordinary soldier - in my opinion. Some families have continual bickering amongst themselves - and woe betide anyone who intervenes in a 'domestic', some countries are the same - Iraq being one of them. It will always be this way.