Why haven't they fixed it then?

You know what is best for you. I know what is best for me. Others know what is best for them. That forms the foundation of my belief that Free markets "knows best". What is the basis of your view? Do you think others know what is best for you? Or is it your assumption that it is just other people who need the nanny state to determine what is best?

If it is a waste of time and money it is bad. Resources should be directed towards what works best. We should always ask the questions - is it working? Is there a better way?

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

What is your objective? You will never change my mind on this issue. I will always have a response, question, example, of a different point of view that I can present. I have an obsessive compulsive disorder, and like when a dog gets fixated, the true response is to remove the object or in my case ignore me. My wife will occasionally slap me, but others don't have that option.

I actually disagree with this dog owner, of a dog named Ace - I can feel Ace's pain.

Dogs with fixations (part 3) | ThatMutt.com: A Dog Blog

I am thinking of trying Yoga, what do you think?

on the employment policies institute:

Employment Policies Institute - SourceWatch

give me a fucking break, ace.

Woah, woah, woah.... wait a minute there. Are you saying the report is biased?

Maybe the problem isn't minimum wage. Maybe the problem is education. Maybe the problem is poverty. Maybe the problem is racism.

Can a free market self-correct these too?


EDIT: As an aside, I'd be open to an alternative to minimum wage legislation, such as guaranteed minimum income. This way, despite how little people are paid in their jobs, or whether they can only get part-time work, they would be guaranteed a minimum livable income. The funding for this sort of thing comes from taxes rather than service companies with thin margins. But I'm afraid conservatives would view that as more "socialistic" than minimum wage legislation, which is too bad because to me it would seem more manageable. It could also be scaled to the individual rather than flatly at the state or federal levels. This means that individuals receive the wage correction scaled to their other income and to their local cost of living.

Does not change the reality in many of our urban centers of 55% plus black young male unemployment. Over the past 50 years the liberal message to young black males has been that Corporate America is racist, evil, wants to exploit you and Republican are their advocate. The liberal solution is no solution. The liberal message is false. The liberal approach has harmed every generation of young black males in my life time.

But as usual, you respond to the messenger and not the message.

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

Do you think the data is biased?

If industry wants to train and employ people is there a problem with that?

The problem is the nanny state. Minimum wage and some (not all) other employment legislation benefits some at the expense of others. Is that statement true or false in your view? And if true, who wins and who loses with minimum wage legislation?

Yes, if allowed.

What have Republicans done to help young black males that didn't involve trickling?

---------- Post added at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

I haven't seen the data. But now I know who contracted its generation.

Is this a rhetorical question? :rolleyes:

The problem with the nanny state, however, is that it give disproportionate support to businesses vs. the lower/working class. There is a long history of that.

That said, most if not all legislation benefits one party at the expense of another; if it weren't the case, the condition(s) probably wouldn't need to be legislated in the first place.

Bullshit.

Speculation usually does more harm than good, especially since so much of it would be more aptly labelled "gambling."

Republican typically oppose minimum wage legislation until it is put on the table as a compromise for something else. Young black males have no clout with either party. However, it is the liberal message that has been most harmful to young black males. It is a tragedy. If you ever talk to some of these males their views are often so skewed that in their mind it is better to be unskilled and unemployed than it would be to take an entry level job - they wait and wait for the promise of something that is never going to be given. Nothing, politically speaking, disturbs me than this scam played by liberals.

In addition it is the liberals who try to prevent stores like Walmart or fast restaurants from going into urban areas, places that would train and employ unskilled people. It is the liberals who control urban governments and school systems. Liberals stand in the way of school choice, for those wanting better for their children. Etc.

I think they are screwed. Either they make the tea and staunchs happy and lose the moderates and thus the election or they make the moderates happy and lose more control of themselves to a fringe party and thusly lose the house big time. Its a double edged sword. Add to that the poor pool of candidates and that the base actually loves reality show stars more than real candidates and its going to basically be handed to Obama.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

Well, i agree, thats a stupid system. they stand int he way because they want reform. Republicans man, always their first answer is well give them choice. Thats a bandaid. Shouldnt need choice, one school should not be worse than another by any significant degree. Everyone will choose the better school... bah

You see... capitalism, its really all about classes and castes and pretending they dont exist while celebrating that they do.

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

I call diversion... this is not a valid argument.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

but no real argument, as we've repeatedly determined. thats my point. all those responses add up to nothing, cause thats what you really have. i think most in here just like arguing, they dont think they can change your mind, its more like practicing boxing on a bag... excercise. I think it apparent most dont take you seriously so... No offense, just pointing out what I see.

You lost me.

Now I'm really confused. What's the point of a Walmart or McDonald's if these young black males would rather be unskilled and unemployed?

This assumes the problems and solutions lie mostly in the schools themselves.

If you ever have the opportunity to talk to young black urban males you would understand.

some companies do a good job of training and developing unskilled workers. McDonald's and Walmart are two that come to mind. My first real job was at Mcdonald's and some of the money I earned for college came from working there. I started cleaning the lobby and the bathrooms when I was 16 - some of the people from my HS would come in and make jokes about me cleaning toilets for at the time was about $2.10 per hour. A year later at 17 I was an assistant manager.

Liberals think McDonald's and Walmart are harmful. Liberals send young people the false message that corporate America is racist, and is the enemy. It is shameful. From a big picture point of view, it has been this message that has done tremendous harm to young black urban males. Someone has to be an adult to these men and tell them to go to work.

All of them? How many have you talked to?

That's nice. It's a good thing liberals didn't ruin that opportunity for you.

Who are these liberals you're talking about? You talk about liberals like you talk about young black men. Like they're all the same. That in itself is a problem.

If this message does indeed exist, then I would agree that it is likely to cause harm.

Which adults should be telling them to go to work? Are you suggesting that no one is telling any of them this? Do you know how presumptuous this sounds?

Maybe ace needs to poll his local grocer again to learn that not all 'Liberals' are the same, or he can poll all these young black urban males he seems to talk to every day, maybe they can teach him, until then, my previous post stands, better off banging your head against a wall BG, the results wuld be the same as debating ace, you'll be left dazed and confused.

I was one. I grew up and went to school with them. I have family members who are them. I have done volunteer work with/for them. I have mentored them. I have set up and raise money for scholarships for them. I have hired them. I play(ed) basketball with them. My father is still alive and lives in the same neighborhood, I talk to them when I visit my father. I have gone to church with them. I talk to them when I see them on a day to day basis - you know, stuff like...how is it going...see the game last night...you in school or what are you up to...what do you think about Obama... You would be surprised how much information you can get from people by simply showing some interest in their views. Is this something extreme too? Gee.:shakehead:

O.k., you already said you don't get it. Leave it at that.

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------


Instead of the picture you posted how is this?

http://housebandwidth.org/bog/wp-con...n-the-sand.jpg

If there is no value in me sharing my experiences and thoughts with you, ignore them. In my view it is foolish doing what you do. If I had no respect or interest in your point of view I would ignore it.

No it's not extreme. Let's not jump to conclusions. However, I'd be interested to know what geographic region your knowledge of young black men covers. The U.S. is a big place.

My point is that you seem to be basing your analysis of a widespread problem on a limited view. I could be wrong; it just seems that way. Would you consider your knowledge of young black men comprehensive and detailed enough to write about for publication? Do you think maybe you could help the government understand what's going on from coast to coast?

I'm sure you could help your neighbourhood or maybe your city. To a degree. But I'm reluctant to form any significant opinions on the matter based on what you've observed. I hope you understand.

No, I totally got that part. I found it nice because I was in a similar position to yours too. I come from a working class family damaged by an absentee and alcoholic father and a mother who suffers from extreme chronic pain. The only positive male role models I've ever had were school teachers and managers at my part-time minimum-wage jobs.

Everything I learned about responsibility I learned in school and at work. I have a feeling that this is the case for many youth. Now, beyond your Big Bad Liberal conspiracy theory, what makes you suggest youth don't want to get trained and get jobs? What's the real problem? At first you were saying it's because minimum wage is too high. Now you're saying it's because youth are being brainwashed by urban liberal overlords.

What is it?

I have connections and have had extensive travels in most urban centers in the Midwest, West (excluding Oregon and Washington), South and South East. I have no connections nor have I had extensive travels to many large Northeastern urban centers, i.e. New York, Boston, Philly, etc.

Yes.

No, I don't understand. People in power form their views and opinions no different than how I form mine. However, if a person like Obama, describes a problem and offers a solution, your response is different - I offer it is because his world view is similar to yours. I admit when I have a bias, do you? For example if I told you I was a PHd., and offered the same information, would you immediately assign a higher level of credibility to it? I think you would.

There are multiple forces in play.

But first, young men are not born with negative attitudes, those attitudes are formed. If you don't agree with that premise, we will never agree on what follows from the premise.

Again, in a free market the problems would be self correcting. Business opportunity is severely restricted in some areas, lower the restrictions and business opportunities will develop. When young men have positive experiences with legitimate businesses the impact of anti-business messages would be off-set and eventually over come.

When I say free markets are self correcting, when it come it race in America, we have to understand the history. Racism in America was institutionalized by government or legislation, i.e., Jim Crow laws. It was through government that segregation was enforced and without the support of government it ends (there will always be exceptions or people who are simply evil, but they will not define a society). When people are free to interact the fear of differences dissipates and people begin to focus on what they have in common.

It is shameful when any politician, community worker/leader plays on class/race/sex/religious/age/sexuality warfare or those those differences to solidify their support. Obama has President does this more than any President in my lifetime, and it is beneath the dignity of the office. And I suspect he underestimates the negative impact it has.

It's quite simple to understand ace, your views are formed from your little corner of the country, you have no idea what's going on anywhere else, regardless of these 'connections' you seem to think you have, or how extensive your 'travels' seem to be. Saying you have 'connections' is actually quite laughable, because I suspect your 'connections' all hold similar views to you.
Nope, my BS meter would still be screaming at me, and registering off the scale regardless of your hypothetical PHd, if it smells like someones spreading shit, chances are......

First, I don't think Obama and I share a similar worldview. From what I can tell, we deviate quite a bit. I think we would disagree on a lot of things. I disagree with several of his positions and decisions as president.

Second, I don't deny my bias. But this isn't about me; it's about you. I understand you have a bias. I also understand that you've, again, made a wider issue about you.

Third, it isn't about titles or positions. It's about the data and the method of which it was gathered and processed. If Obama had a Ph.D. and told me that he talks to a lot of young black men in several pockets of the country and finds that liberals are brainwashing them, I'd still be suspicious. So, no, I wouldn't sign a higher level of credibility to the data.

It shouldn't be all that surprising. It's not about you or Obama.

I don't disagree with it, though it hasn't been brought up until now. If you recall, what I disagree with is your suggestion that "liberals" are brainwashing all the young black men in America to not want jobs. I'm willing to believe it, but you aren't very convincing.

Speculative.

Non sequitur.

Non sequitur.

Irrelevant.

ace, I'm disappointed. Do you even remember what we're talking about?

I started this with simply pointing out a problem in urban centers in this country, the cause and solution from my point of view. My credibility was immediately questioned and I responded.

Early on I suggested that you do your own homework, if interested, on this subject. I know i can not convince you, at one point I accepted that you did not understand what I was presenting and was willing to leave it at that.


Very much so. As this relates to the GOP "shifting" strategy, I repeat a point I made earlier, if we are all the same, i.e. racist, deny children education, want women to get back alley abortions, want granny to die, etc, etc. - there is absolutely no reason to compromise or work with liberals. It is pure folly to enter into any attempt to work with liberals to solve problems - as is evidenced in this thread (again nothing personal) - conservatives need to sweep the WH and Congress in order to solve problems. And I fully expect they will.

Your guilty of your own accusation, lol. I never saw you make any attempt to compromise on anything. Like i said before in another thread, you argued opinion, and when faced with opposing opinions and facts that also dont go away or give in to you your closing statement is that all liberals are impossible to work or compromise with. I said the same thing earlier in this thread, only I said I couldnt take "you" seriously.

Baraka said it far better than I can, this is all about Ace Fundamentalism.