Who is responsible for the current US economy? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

BentNotTwisted · 07-15-2003, 01:48 PM

I have had this discussion with many friends and I seem to get two points of view. I'm not especially up to speed on the economic history of the US, but it seems to me when a Republican president and a Republican majority on Capitol Hill take over the economy goes in the crapper. I've talked to friends who are staunch Republicans and they say it's the fault of the previous administration and that the Republicans get stuck having to clean up the mess left by the Democrats. Ok, but if the Republicans do such a great job of fixing up the economy then why do they ever lose political control of this country?

Does anyone here have a better handle on WTF contributes to an up or down economy and if it is affected by which political party has control?

seretogis · 07-15-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
Clinton did not do anything special to pull the country out of a deficit; with the economy soaring, deficits were turning into surplusses all over the world. Bush took over when the economy was starting to go down, hence he "turned the surplus into a deficit", like every surplus worldwide turned into a deficit again.

"It's the economy, stupid", not the president in charge - you only notice results of current programs years down the line.

Try doing a search for "economy" in this forum.

BentNotTwisted · 07-15-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Try doing a search for "economy" in this forum.

I did a search for economics, I guess that wasn't good enough.

rogue49 · 07-15-2003, 04:06 PM

OK, let's get things straight...neither the Dems or the GOP are responsible for this economy.

If anything, it was the whole government's fault for allowing & not monitoring the abuses of the corporate community.

The economy we have these days is a direct result of the thefts,
abuse, mismanagement, excess & neglect of the U.S corporations at large.

Not the war
Not the Fed
Not the terrorist act
etc.

But the absurd decisions made by our companies at large,
and the ripping off of Americans.

Much less all consumers being "fee'd" to death
by many different entities at large without getting any service back.

The American Economy has become very one-sided.

I don't mind let business doing what it need to do business,
I like laize-faire.
but not at the overwhelming abuse of the people who are the customer.

People have lost billions.
Small businesses have been driven under
Consumers are being nickel & dimed to death.

I think it's time to rein in some of the bottomline mentality,
and give who you are basing your business on some breathing room.
And prosecute & penalize all companies & INDIVIDUALS to the fullest extent of the law.
Even more so than what has been done so far.

Also there should be a investigation into companies policies of FEES vs. actual service.
All I know is that I'm constantly paying without getting something of significance in return.

alpha phi · 07-16-2003, 05:55 AM

Also corporate layoffs play a huge role in a sagging economy
a huge company puts 100 people out of work---they can't afford the things they normally buy, demand slows Another company lays off, and the cycle continues in a downwand spiral.

Gas prices also play a huge role in in our current economy
high gas prices have hurt manufacturing, shipping, travel, and well.....everything.
meanwhile Exxon posts it's highest ever quarterly gain!

the president at the time really has nothing to do with it,
other than a figure to blame

geep · 07-16-2003, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue49
People have lost billions.

Many of those people would not have had the money without the corporations who made it. It seems to be a vicious circle.

Sparhawk · 07-16-2003, 06:11 AM

rogue49,

To say that it's the whole government's fault passes the buck, and is a little naive. Assign blame where blame is due. The corporate culture of greed above all else, while prevalent during the last administration, is being nourished as never before, with tax cuts explicitly designed for the wealthy, and a lack of oversight that borders on criminal.

Peetster · 07-16-2003, 07:43 AM

Large greedy corrupt corporations.

seretogis · 07-16-2003, 10:13 AM

Large greedy corrupt people.

The_Dude · 07-17-2003, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Large greedy corrupt people.

that are now in the bush cabinet ( couldnt help that one).

i think a prez has a lot to do w/ the economy. he gets a lot of appointments in dealing with the economic situation, and it's the OMB (right?) that propose the federal budget.

president also introduces bills to the congress thru congressmen/women

bermuDa · 07-18-2003, 12:33 AM

*points finger* YOU are responsible for our economy!

go out and spend spend spend!!! only you can prevent recessions

Ace_of_Lobster · 07-18-2003, 09:02 AM

Long term growth tends to be pretty stable, regardless of which party is in control.

The short-term fluctuations have very less to do with the specific policies that governments implement than they do with the buisness cycle.

Rodney · 07-18-2003, 10:34 AM

One of the things that makes me see double are figures that show economic growth while hiring stays flat or sinks. Corporations say that it's due to increases in productivity thanks to new technologies, etc., Yeah, right.

Maybe partially. But a great deal of that "increase in productivity" comes from contracting out work overseas to people who'll do it for 1/4 to 1/10 the salary. The Internet makes this easy, so I guess you can still say that technology is the key, but really it's cheaper labor. Plenty of tech jobs have moved to South India, and more and more companies are either contracting their work their or starting offices there. Other service jobs are going to India: call centers, medical transcription; I just read that one of the big accounting firms founded an office there to process American income tax returns.

Is this going to turn into those "they're takin' our jobs, the bastids" rants? No. It's capitalism, and what corporations are doing is entirely by the rules -- they're chasing low-cost solutions to improve their bottom lines and serve the shareholders. But...

Every time they move a job overseas, they make the American public -- the consumers who are driving this economy -- just a little more nervous about their jobs, and a little less inclined to spend money. Plus, they're putting more people in the U.S. out of work at a time when new jobs are not being created.

Does the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot" mean anything? Companies are improving their own bottom lines in a way that helps them individually but weakens the American economy -- certainly buying power -- as a whole, at the very time that they're hoping that consumer buying will help pull the economy back into gear. See, this is where government has to step in and do something, because private industry is too focused on the bottom line to do anything. But our current administration hasn't found a way to do anything meaningful so far. I really doubt that those tax cuts will help much; especially if you're already unemployed, or make under 50K a year.

The doldrums we're in now are not just the business cycle, though that's part of it. They're partly caused by a major way in which corporations are doing business -- or more, appropriately, where they're getting that business done. Offshoring is only going to accelerate, and it's going to make a big and lasting change in the American economy.

hiredgun · 07-19-2003, 02:32 AM

without reading the rest of the thread, my $.02 is that the economy is beyond the scope or control of any one person or group of people.

Ace_of_Lobster · 07-19-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rodney
See, this is where government has to step in and do something, because private industry is too focused on the bottom line to do anything. But our current administration hasn't found a way to do anything meaningful so far.

I think the government should spend money on re-training programs for workers who lose jobs to overseas labor. So workers could move into more advanced jobs that are less under threat from overseas. They could subsidize the cost if not pay it in full. It would be a better use of taxpayer money than all those handouts to farmers, and certainly cost less than protectionist tariffs. (see steel workers)

Thats my idea, anyhow.

BBtB · 07-19-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by alpha phi
A
Gas prices also play a huge role in in our current economy
high gas prices have hurt manufacturing, shipping, travel, and well.....everything.
meanwhile Exxon posts it's highest ever quarterly gain!

Okay, I need to correct a misconception here. Gas prices really aren't that high. The rate of inflation is (about) 6%. At that rate if you think the price per gallon was $.25 in 1960 (Pretty sure it was more then that) then that would be $2.89 by 2003. Of course locally it is only $1.39. I am not aware of any place that has hit $2.89 more then just temporarly. In other words, what would have taken you an hours worth of work to get in 1960 would only take you a half hours worth of work.

As for the economy as a whole. From my stand point there is not a whole lot wrong with the economy. There are still jobs out there. For those who want to work. Are they always the best jobs? No, but I would rather work at McDonalds then take a goverment handout. As for the goverment paying for advanced training, its not a bad idea except that its allready done. Anyone can go to a community college. Were I work,a place that is DESPERATE for employees, you start out at $8.50 an hour and within 2 months most people are making $10.00 and at that point they will start helping pay for college (only like $750 but that goes atleast a little ways towards community college) Its not great but it will get you into college. If you are willing to work it will get you through college.

Ace_of_Lobster · 07-19-2003, 12:18 PM

I wasnt implying there was nothing to help people go to community college, just that there should be more of it and less protectionism.
Your example seemed to be about at private company though, not the government.
Not trying ot be picky, im just sayin!

07-15-2003, 01:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
BentNotTwisted Optimistic Skeptic Location: Midway between a Beehive and Centennial	Who is responsible for the current US economy? I have had this discussion with many friends and I seem to get two points of view. I'm not especially up to speed on the economic history of the US, but it seems to me when a Republican president and a Republican majority on Capitol Hill take over the economy goes in the crapper. I've talked to friends who are staunch Republicans and they say it's the fault of the previous administration and that the Republicans get stuck having to clean up the mess left by the Democrats. Ok, but if the Republicans do such a great job of fixing up the economy then why do they ever lose political control of this country? Does anyone here have a better handle on WTF contributes to an up or down economy and if it is affected by which political party has control? __________________ IS THAT IT ???!!! Do you even know what 'it' is? When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

07-15-2003, 04:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	OK, let's get things straight...neither the Dems or the GOP are responsible for this economy. If anything, it was the whole government's fault for allowing & not monitoring the abuses of the corporate community. The economy we have these days is a direct result of the thefts, abuse, mismanagement, excess & neglect of the U.S corporations at large. Not the war Not the Fed Not the terrorist act etc. But the absurd decisions made by our companies at large, and the ripping off of Americans. Much less all consumers being "fee'd" to death by many different entities at large without getting any service back. The American Economy has become very one-sided. I don't mind let business doing what it need to do business, I like laize-faire. but not at the overwhelming abuse of the people who are the customer. People have lost billions. Small businesses have been driven under Consumers are being nickel & dimed to death. I think it's time to rein in some of the bottomline mentality, and give who you are basing your business on some breathing room. And prosecute & penalize all companies & INDIVIDUALS to the fullest extent of the law. Even more so than what has been done so far. Also there should be a investigation into companies policies of FEES vs. actual service. All I know is that I'm constantly paying without getting something of significance in return. Last edited by rogue49; 07-15-2003 at 04:11 PM..

07-16-2003, 05:55 AM	#5 (permalink)
alpha phi seeker Location: home	Also corporate layoffs play a huge role in a sagging economy a huge company puts 100 people out of work---they can't afford the things they normally buy, demand slows Another company lays off, and the cycle continues in a downwand spiral. Gas prices also play a huge role in in our current economy high gas prices have hurt manufacturing, shipping, travel, and well.....everything. meanwhile Exxon posts it's highest ever quarterly gain! the president at the time really has nothing to do with it, other than a figure to blame __________________ All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.

07-16-2003, 06:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	rogue49, To say that it's the whole government's fault passes the buck, and is a little naive. Assign blame where blame is due. The corporate culture of greed above all else, while prevalent during the last administration, is being nourished as never before, with tax cuts explicitly designed for the wealthy, and a lack of oversight that borders on criminal. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

07-16-2003, 10:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Large greedy corrupt people. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

07-16-2003, 07:43 AM	#8 (permalink)
Peetster Right Now Location: Home	Large greedy corrupt corporations.

07-18-2003, 12:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	points finger YOU are responsible for our economy! go out and spend spend spend!!! only you can prevent recessions __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

07-18-2003, 09:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	Long term growth tends to be pretty stable, regardless of which party is in control. The short-term fluctuations have very less to do with the specific policies that governments implement than they do with the buisness cycle. __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk

07-18-2003, 10:34 AM	#13 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	One of the things that makes me see double are figures that show economic growth while hiring stays flat or sinks. Corporations say that it's due to increases in productivity thanks to new technologies, etc., Yeah, right. Maybe partially. But a great deal of that "increase in productivity" comes from contracting out work overseas to people who'll do it for 1/4 to 1/10 the salary. The Internet makes this easy, so I guess you can still say that technology is the key, but really it's cheaper labor. Plenty of tech jobs have moved to South India, and more and more companies are either contracting their work their or starting offices there. Other service jobs are going to India: call centers, medical transcription; I just read that one of the big accounting firms founded an office there to process American income tax returns. Is this going to turn into those "they're takin' our jobs, the bastids" rants? No. It's capitalism, and what corporations are doing is entirely by the rules -- they're chasing low-cost solutions to improve their bottom lines and serve the shareholders. But... Every time they move a job overseas, they make the American public -- the consumers who are driving this economy -- just a little more nervous about their jobs, and a little less inclined to spend money. Plus, they're putting more people in the U.S. out of work at a time when new jobs are not being created. Does the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot" mean anything? Companies are improving their own bottom lines in a way that helps them individually but weakens the American economy -- certainly buying power -- as a whole, at the very time that they're hoping that consumer buying will help pull the economy back into gear. See, this is where government has to step in and do something, because private industry is too focused on the bottom line to do anything. But our current administration hasn't found a way to do anything meaningful so far. I really doubt that those tax cuts will help much; especially if you're already unemployed, or make under 50K a year. The doldrums we're in now are not just the business cycle, though that's part of it. They're partly caused by a major way in which corporations are doing business -- or more, appropriately, where they're getting that business done. Offshoring is only going to accelerate, and it's going to make a big and lasting change in the American economy.

07-19-2003, 02:32 AM	#14 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	without reading the rest of the thread, my $.02 is that the economy is beyond the scope or control of any one person or group of people.

07-19-2003, 12:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	I wasnt implying there was nothing to help people go to community college, just that there should be more of it and less protectionism. Your example seemed to be about at private company though, not the government. Not trying ot be picky, im just sayin! __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk