What should be done about the pirates in Somalia? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ASU2003 · 02-24-2011, 07:03 PM

A few days ago, a group of pirates took over a sailboat with 4 Americans on-board. It looks like the US Navy stepped in (after being shot at), and things didn't turn out so good.

Now, this has been going on for some time. And the USA Today thinks that organized crime has taken over instead of out-of-work fishermen.

4 American hostages killed by pirates, U.S. says - USATODAY.com

Now, what should be done with Somalia? Should we just leave them alone and make all ships travel down to South Africa? Or should the UN or the major naval nations setup a blockade 12 miles off the coast. Any ships departing Somalia and crossing that line will be sunk? I know the Russians have taken a hard line stance and are using the old maritime laws on piracy to kill pirates. How Russians Deal With Pirates They just blow up the pirates boat with them tied up on it.

I am thinking that the second option would be the right one. I know that there are already naval warships from lots of different nations there, but I don't see why we couldn't work together and block every boat along the 1800 mile long coast. Most of the coast is desert and wouldn't have much activity.

Oh, and the 15 pirates that the Navy caught. I would recommend that they be shot or made to walk the plank a few hundred miles from shore. Why should we have to pay millions of taxpayer dollars to bring them here, put them on trial, and house them in jail for ~30 years?

Seaver · 02-24-2011, 07:29 PM

I have to agree with enforcing old Pirate Law. Honestly right now there's no downside to a Somali pirate. If you succeed you get more money than most in America will ever see in their lives. If you fail... you get regular meals and a bed for the rest of your life.

It's a daunting task that you can't catch everyone... but if a boat leaves the Somali Coast and they have guns either all guns must be thrown overboard or punch a hole in the boat and let them swim.

Xazy · 02-25-2011, 05:26 AM

There was an Italian cruise line that hired Israeli guards and in 2009 that fought off pirates.

I am all for taking the fight there with a zero tolerance rule. If combat happens use over whelming force, until they get the picture.

The pirates for the most part are teens and early 20s they make a fortune of money, and are treated like royalty. If we remove that incentive by using guards and force then it will be harder for them to recruit.

Baraka_Guru · 02-25-2011, 05:38 AM

There's a better way to fight piracy coming out of Somalia.

Finding an end to the civil war, finding an end to illegal foreign fishing, and finding a solution to the toxic waste problem.

THE TWO PIRACIES IN SOMALIA: WHY THE WORLD IGNORES THE OTHER?
3. Toxic Waste Behind Somali Pirates | Project Censored
Alshahid Network Somalia deputy prime minister: Toxic waste dumping in Somali coast is the cause of piracy

If all of this comes as a surprise to you (as it had to me), this might help you understand why:
Jeff Nygaard: Pirates, Profits and Propaganda

Brief history lesson: the civil war in Somalia has been going on since 1991, where 300,000 to 400,000 people have died (that's 3 to 4 times the estimated number of civilian deaths in the Iraq war). In 2010 alone, more than 3,000 people have died.

dksuddeth · 02-25-2011, 05:56 AM

it might also help if governments stopped restricting the right to bear arms.

Derwood · 02-25-2011, 08:54 AM

Man, I'm dizzy from that spin

The_Jazz · 02-25-2011, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

it might also help if governments stopped restricting the right to bear arms.

We should invade to enforce that right?

Your Constitutional rights end at the border. And I don't think that anyone has ever said that sailors can't arm themselves.

But let's keep this on pirates, shall we?

Really, I don't see where there's much to be done beyond setting up a task force to watch for pirates. An international peacekeeping force isn't going to be able to accomplish much with no government to prop up, only feuding warlords. Elections are pretty much impossible. The Etheopians have had some success bringing some stability to the southern parts of the country, but that's limited at best. And enforcing the old pirate codes would be distasteful to many of the countries that would normally be called on to do so.

dksuddeth · 02-25-2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

We should invade to enforce that right?

Your Constitutional rights end at the border. And I don't think that anyone has ever said that sailors can't arm themselves.

But let's keep this on pirates, shall we?

the point is, how does one fare against a group of priates with automatic weapons, unless that person has automatic weapons? can an american citizen get an automatic weapon to keep on his boat when out sailing???? no, because the government doesn't want civilians to be as equally armed as they are, so we civilians just have to be outgunned on the open seas.

roachboy · 02-25-2011, 10:20 AM

i'm not sure that more weapons would fit into somalia.

Quote:

Despite an arms embargo imposed in 1992, Somalia remains a key market for illegal small arms and light weapons for the Horn of Africa countries. The lack of a central government for the past 15 years has meant no government control over the illegal importation, acquisition and disposal of arms. The porous boarders with neighboring states such as Kenya has meant easy access to new markets hence the high number of illegal small arms and light weapons in the entire region. The common types of arms in Somalia range from �side arms through sub-machine guns to �technicals�, modified anti-aircraft artillery or heavy machine guns mounted on the back of pick-up trucks' ( Mogadishu , AFP Aug 30).

Nairobi Secretariat on Small Arms

i'm not sure how much there is to be done. john wayne shoot-em-up fantasies are unlikely to have much effect. it's clear that many of the folk who engage in this action are willing to risk their lives for the big pay-offs. stabilizing the political and economic situations would likely help, but as usual with such things there's neither agreement nor mechanisms that enable transnational action to happen.

so nothing will.

The_Jazz · 02-25-2011, 10:25 AM

dk, given that the piracy zone is literally on the other side of the planet and that any sailors going into that zone would by necessity have to go through other ports to get to the piracy zone where they would have much easier access to purchasing automatic weapons, I can't decide if you're trolling this thread or just throwing up a strawman. This is not a purely American problem by any means. This is an international problem.

So:

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+-
This thread is not about the 2nd Amendment. Stop trying to make it into one.

ASU2003 · 02-25-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

We should invade to enforce that right?

Your Constitutional rights end at the border. And I don't think that anyone has ever said that sailors can't arm themselves.

Really, I don't see where there's much to be done beyond setting up a task force to watch for pirates. An international peacekeeping force isn't going to be able to accomplish much with no government to prop up, only feuding warlords. Elections are pretty much impossible. The Etheopians have had some success bringing some stability to the southern parts of the country, but that's limited at best. And enforcing the old pirate codes would be distasteful to many of the countries that would normally be called on to do so.

You can have 'legal' guns in US waters, but once you go to Mexico or Canada the laws are different. In many ports, guns are banned or have to be handed over when arriving and then picked back up when you leave. It isn't worth it.

And I'm not talking about invading Somalia or bringing elections and a stable government. Maybe we could help Ethiopia take over part of the country to give them access to the sea, but that is a different discussion.

All I am suggesting is a change in tactics. A more offensive stance if you will. Many countries currently have to provide military escorts to convoys of ships sailing in that region. The military ships, helicopters, and UAVs are there. The UN or any one country isn't stepping up and coming up with a unified strategy of working together to stop pirates from leaving Somalia.

And this is the main reason that this and other countries created Navies and kept them around. We pay billions of dollars for all the ships we have, yet in the old days they had no choice but to kill criminals (they didn't have the food rations or space to keep them), yet it also was a pretty good deterrent.

I have no problems with warning them, but if they make the decision to go out to sea and look for ships to hold for ransom, they should be stopped.

And yes, over fishing and pollution might have been the reasons this started, but now it is a fairly low risk business venture for the druglords on land to make lots of money.

The_Jazz · 02-25-2011, 11:24 AM

I think that you'd find that a majority of the nations that would normally respond to a call for naval assistance (read: Western Europe) would require a caveat barring executions. An international task force that would enforce the laws as written would involve some strange bedfellows - Russia, China, Iran, Egypt, the US, etc.

The thing is that this smells a bit like "welfare queens" to me. By that I mean that you're looking at this as a low risk venture with no downside. It takes serious despiration to get into an open boat with a bunch of other armed men to chase down ships. I don't see that portion of the act as "low risk" given the possibilities of storms, breakdowns, bad navigation, failure to find any ships, etc. let alone finding a naval vessel by mistake. Let's remember that we have -no- data on how many pirates set out and never come back. It could be a huge percentage. It could be that all of them come back. We don't know.

And I can't imagine that pirates think that jail in a foreign country is a spectacular tradeoff either.

Finally, drugs are the problem in Somalia. If they were, there would be a bigger international outcry to fix the problem. These are simple warlords, interested only in controlling their little nest of territory.

dksuddeth · 02-25-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

dk, given that the piracy zone is literally on the other side of the planet and that any sailors going into that zone would by necessity have to go through other ports to get to the piracy zone where they would have much easier access to purchasing automatic weapons, I can't decide if you're trolling this thread or just throwing up a strawman. This is not a purely American problem by any means. This is an international problem.

you can choose to consider it a troll or a strawman as you wish. To most people, i'm sure that is the only way they can see it. Much like roachboy states, that the 'pirates' are such bloodthirsty homicidal maniacs out on the ocean that no decent person stands any sort of chance of defense unless big strong government military forces ride to their rescue. But how long has piracy been a problem around the world? how many more deaths or hijackings do you think it will take before any single government chooses to intervene? my guess it that unless there emerges some sort of pirate group that becomes so large and bold to start targeting oil tankers, governments will do little, if anything, to actively patrol the ocean for them. So that leaves private citizens with two choices. don't sail or take your chances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

So:

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+-
This thread is not about the 2nd Amendment. Stop trying to make it into one.

So, in not turning this in to some sort of 2nd Amendment thread, at some point in time the WORLD is going to have to make a choice.

1) Do we start taking measures to provide for our own protection, or
2) Do we demand that governments around the world add the expense of increasing attack ships and combat sailors to patrol enough of the ocean to protect against pirates?

KirStang · 02-25-2011, 12:49 PM

UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, Article 100:

Quote:

Article100

Duty to cooperate in the repression of piracy

All States shall cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the repression of piracy on the high seas or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State.

UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index

I think we should step up naval escorts in the area and radically rebalance the pirate's cost-benefit analysis. Right now, the benefits of piracy, appear to far outweigh the potential costs of piracy.

Willravel · 02-25-2011, 12:55 PM

If I remember my Gilbert and Sullivan, all that needs to be done is for the Major General to invoke the pirates' loyalty to the Queen. They're all noblemen gone wrong, after all.

As far as I'm concerned, the Somali pirate problem is social and economic at it's core. Somalia is still a country living in extreme poverty, leaving piracy as a viable method for making money and securing the future of one's family. This is classic in failed states, where people without access to regular opportunities, turn to alternative opportunities in order to make ends meet. It's so simple, even Time Magazine figured it out, eventually. In short the answer is, and I can't believe I'm typing this, nation-building. I'm not talking about unilateral invasion, occupation, foreign contractors, never-ending war, etc., I'm talking about a new type of nation building, which works a little bit at a time.

The_Jazz · 02-25-2011, 01:19 PM

Oh, where are you, Ustwo, to insert one of your facepalm pics? It's so desperately needed here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

you can choose to consider it a troll or a strawman as you wish.

A troll is something that we don't tolerate around here. A strawman is tolerated but not really a respected argument. We're not going to turn this thread into something that it's not just because you want to talk 2nd Amendment. Start another thread if that's what you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

But how long has piracy been a problem around the world?

I'm going to go with thousands of years. Well before firearms were even invented, piracy was around. It's the reason that navies were invented. It's been out of the headlines because ships have grown so large that they're not usual targets. That's changed because of the problems in Somalia.

Oh, and "shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Hymn refers directly to the Barbary Wars of the 1790's against the Barbary pirates who raided US shipping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

how many more deaths or hijackings do you think it will take before any single government chooses to intervene? my guess it that unless there emerges some sort of pirate group that becomes so large and bold to start targeting oil tankers, governments will do little, if anything, to actively patrol the ocean for them.

I am now accusing you of not bothering to read any posts in this thread. I'm also accusing you of having done absolutely no research on the topic or have any idea of what the current events are. If any of those accusations were false, then you'd know that several nations, including the Danes, Americans, Indians and Russians, have all actively engaged pirates in the Indian Ocean. And that the Russians killed all the pirates that they captured. If you'd read the thread, you'd have known that. If you'd researched the topic at all, you'd know that.

Governments are not "doing little". But it's a big ocean and there's only so much that they can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

So that leaves private citizens with two choices. don't sail or take your chances.

Or with staying in the patrolled shipping lanes or in groups. If you'd read the thread, you'd know that ignoring that common sense suggestion got these folks killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

1) Do we start taking measures to provide for our own protection, or
2) Do we demand that governments around the world add the expense of increasing attack ships and combat sailors to patrol enough of the ocean to protect against pirates?

Given that piracy is the original reason for the creation of international law and that the US Navy's original charter refers to piracy, I think that choice 3 is "Let the navies do their jobs and figure out how to better coordinate to repel attacks." If I were I pirate, I wouldn't think too much about attacking a small vessel armed with automatic weapons, especially if there were more of us than you. If there were a naval vessel in the area, armed with guns bigger than anything I could ever muster, I wouldn't go pirating.

dksuddeth · 02-25-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

armed with guns bigger than anything I could ever muster, I wouldn't go pirating.

that says it all right there. that's the obvious solution, except that it will never fit in with the general sheeple mindset.

The_Jazz · 02-25-2011, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

that says it all right there. that's the obvious solution, except that it will never fit in with the general sheeple mindset.

No, this proves right here that you've got a 1 track mind. The guns I'm talking about are naval guns that those on sailboats couldn't physically mount on their boats and ones that the owners of commercial ships don't want to mount because of the expense.

Dk, you're waaaaaaaay out of your league here. It's obvious that you don't even know anything about the guns that you want to discuss. Because if you did, you'd already know that some ship owners are putting armed mercenaries on some of their ships in the region, and those mercenaries have had some success in repelling pirates. Some ship owners have also armed their crew, although not all crewmen want to be armed.

Give it up, man. You're just making yourself look stupid, which you're not. But someone who hasn't seen your other posts might assume that you are.

Baraka_Guru · 02-25-2011, 01:58 PM

So what can be done beyond the 20+ nation anti-piracy naval commitments that are currently being undertaken in the area?

KirStang · 02-25-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

So what can be done beyond the 20+ nation anti-piracy naval commitments that are currently being undertaken in the area?

One of THESE:

/facetious

Baraka_Guru · 02-25-2011, 02:23 PM

I was hoping someone would bring up nukes.

Willravel · 02-25-2011, 02:36 PM

I think we can all agree that if the people on the sailboat were armed to the teeth, it would have been more difficult for pirates to take it over. It could have lead to a massive shootout at sea of the kinds we might see in a Bond movie, but the vessel would have been more difficult to take. Though I hate guns, I'm able to admit that.

dksuddeth · 02-25-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I think we can all agree that if the people on the sailboat were armed to the teeth, it would have been more difficult for pirates to take it over. It could have lead to a massive shootout at sea of the kinds we might see in a Bond movie, but the vessel would have been more difficult to take. Though I hate guns, I'm able to admit that.

pretty much what I was trying to say, but then I got unloaded on.

The_Jazz · 02-25-2011, 02:50 PM

Then you should have said it instead of doing a drive-by on the the thread, dk. And maybe you want to deign to come down off that mountain of guns you're sitting on to tell us believers in naval power why we should arm recreational sailors that are dumb enough to leave their convoys in known pirate areas.

Do you have any evidence that any of these folks wanted to carry guns? No, you don't.

Do you have any evidence that if they wanted to carry guns that they were denied them? No, you don't.

Do you know anything about the naval task force operating in the area? No, you don't.

Congratulations, you've successfully trolled the thread. Whee.

WhoaitsZ · 03-10-2011, 01:05 PM

The whole average Somalian makes an average of $600 USD a year doesn't help.

ASU2003 · 03-12-2011, 01:05 PM

$600 might be a lot if a house cost $5,000, food was $100/year, and a boat cost $1200... And if all of your neighbors were making that amount too...

But rebuilding an economy can only be done if there isn't a large criminal cartel glamorizing 'easy' money

hunnychile · 03-12-2011, 01:26 PM

Give them a "Trial At Sea". Perhaps they need to be keelhauled first.

I'm tired of pirates who think they can make the rules. They are wrong, and they need to be dealt with.

Baraka_Guru · 03-12-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

But rebuilding an economy can only be done if there isn't a large criminal cartel glamorizing 'easy' money

Or if there isn't a decades-long civil war....

WhoaitsZ · 03-13-2011, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Or if there isn't a decades-long civil war....

exactly.

these pirates are terrible and must be dealt with accordingly. that said, I feel bad for them. their country is broke, their jobs are broke, weapons plentiful...

if i were attacked i'd have no issues killing them. at the same time, were it possible to help them learn to help themselves, i'd rather take that route.

all i'm saying is its not much different than most street gangs. kid has nothing, no food, shelter, care.... he finds it with thugs.

it's a vicious cycle.

Willravel · 03-14-2011, 12:19 PM

Well shit. It turns out that the Somali pirate situation is a bit more complicated than the Western Media has led us to believe.

Quote:

Johann Hari: You are being lied to about pirates
Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling

Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy – backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US to China – is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth. But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labelling as "one of the great menaces of our times" have an extraordinary story to tell – and some justice on their side.

Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the "golden age of piracy" – from 1650 to 1730 – the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage Bluebeard that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: pirates were often saved from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can't? In his book Villains Of All Nations, the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence.

If you became a merchant or navy sailor then – plucked from the docks of London's East End, young and hungry – you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O' Nine Tails. If you slacked often, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages.

Pirates were the first people to rebel against this world. They mutinied – and created a different way of working on the seas. Once they had a ship, the pirates elected their captains, and made all their decisions collectively, without torture. They shared their bounty out in what Rediker calls "one of the most egalitarian plans for the disposition of resources to be found anywhere in the eighteenth century".

They even took in escaped African slaves and lived with them as equals. The pirates showed "quite clearly – and subversively – that ships did not have to be run in the brutal and oppressive ways of the merchant service and the Royal Navy." This is why they were romantic heroes, despite being unproductive thieves.

The words of one pirate from that lost age, a young British man called William Scott, should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: "What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirateing to live." In 1991, the government of Somalia collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since – and the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.

Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention."

At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by overexploitation – and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."

This is the context in which the "pirates" have emerged. Somalian fishermen took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least levy a "tax" on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia – and ordinary Somalis agree. The independent Somalian news site WardheerNews found 70 per cent "strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence".

No, this doesn't make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters – especially those who have held up World Food Programme supplies. But in a telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali: "We don't consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas." William Scott would understand.

Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our toxic waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We won't act on those crimes – the only sane solution to this problem – but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 per cent of the world's oil supply, we swiftly send in the gunboats.

The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." Once again, our great imperial fleets sail – but who is the robber?

Johann Hari: You are being lied to about pirates - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent

This is more than a little distressing to read. While there are some Somali pirates that are just thieves, many are trying desperately to protect their territorial waters from exploitation by polluters and commercial over-fishing. In our push to take on Somali pirates, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the British, Chinese and Americans are all to glad to lump in the righteous with the guilty.

I was very wrong above. The solution to this is not simply nation-building, it's going after polluters and commercial fishermen so that Somalia has even a chance to become a functioning nation again. Without fishing in safe seas, Somalia faces no real options in rebooting their economy.

ASU2003 · 03-15-2011, 09:54 AM

There are definitely international crimes and incursions into Somalian waters, but hijacking sailboats, naval ships, and shipping vessels with lots of guns isn't the way to stop the dumping.

In the paper today, it said that 5 were convicted in the attack on a US Navy ship and will spend the rest of their lives in a US prison, that probably costs more than Tent City or a bullet.

India captured 61 the other day, yet I don't know what they will do. They have enough people to take care of too.

Baraka_Guru · 03-15-2011, 10:08 AM

So, again, the problem with Somalia isn't the pirates.

Plan9 · 03-15-2011, 10:35 AM

ASU2003 · 03-15-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

So, again, the problem with Somalia isn't the pirates.

The symptom has become the problem.

What 'may' have started as a bunch of fishermen commandeering fishing boats and waste barges has turned into hijacking sailboats and other craft that have every right to safely pass through their waters without getting taken for ransom.

Baraka_Guru · 03-15-2011, 03:59 PM

Oh, I'm not saying the pirates don't cause problems in those waters. I'm saying that it doesn't help all that much to focus on them as one aspect. You aren't going to stop piracy simply by catching and punishing all the pirates you can.

Why did we go into Afghanistan? Why didn't we just try to catch the terrorists coming out of there? Wasn't the problem simply with the terrorists? No.

Most violence in the world has deeper root causes that go beyond the direct violence itself. We can focus on the violence to make us feel better that we're doing something to halt it. But will it stop more violence from arising? Not necessarily.

Think about criminal activity. Much of that is tied into poverty. Poverty itself isn't necessarily solved by throwing money at it either. Like most major problems, it requires a multifaceted solution. In the case of poverty, it's often an issue of access to quality education (especially among women) and affordable health care and housing.

With the piracy, the source is tied into a number of problems: civil war, pollution, illegal fishing, etc. You can go after the pirates, yes, but will it stop the piracy. I don't know. I say not likely.

Why do we always think about Somalia these days when we think of piracy? What about all those other pirates causing problems elsewhere? What do you have to say about them?

ASU2003 · 03-15-2011, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Why did we go into Afghanistan? Why didn't we just try to catch the terrorists coming out of there? Wasn't the problem simply with the terrorists? No.

With the piracy, the source is tied into a number of problems: civil war, pollution, illegal fishing, etc. You can go after the pirates, yes, but will it stop the piracy. I don't know. I say not likely.

Why do we always think about Somalia these days when we think of piracy? What about all those other pirates causing problems elsewhere? What do you have to say about them?

Afghanistan could have been fought as a war against terrorists. Instead of making them go into hiding by sending in the uniformed military, they were right out in the open before.

The problem with Somalia is the warlords and gangs now control everything. They have the money, they have the power. The international Navies could easily contain the pirates by using technology and lethal force. This has gone on long enough. Sure you can leaf the towns with filers saying if they go out to sea, they will die to warn them not to, but nothing can be done to fix the country until you stop the piracy.

And I feel the same way about piracy in Hawaii, Mexico, and the Caribbean. It isn't as frequent or as far away from the coast like in Somalia, but piracy needs to be dealt with in the same way. There are enough people on this planet, nobody will miss a few thugs.

WhoaitsZ · 03-15-2011, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

And I feel the same way about piracy in Hawaii, Mexico, and the Caribbean. It isn't as frequent or as far away from the coast like in Somalia, but piracy needs to be dealt with in the same way. There are enough people on this planet, nobody will miss a few thugs.

no one but their families but fuck them, amrite?

Baraka_Guru · 03-15-2011, 08:08 PM

Well, there are lots of things amiss in Somalia. The piracy to me seems like the tip of the iceberg. If there were an easy solution to stop the piracy, it would have been accomplished by now, if not reduced to a marginal issue.

While it's a terrible thing that those 4 Americans lost their lives recently, it's a much greater travesty that the so-far-20-year Somali civil war death toll is up to 300,000 or 400,000.

That's equivalent to about half the population of Washington, D.C.

Oh, and toxic waste and illegal fishing.

Somalia has been metaphorically raped repeatedly over a couple of decades now, and everyone is crying foul about the pirates but don't seem all that concerned about stopping the other stuff that's happening in the area.

Yes, the piracy is bad. Yes, it would be great to stop it. Throwing naval power at it won't necessarily stop it. They've tried that. They're still trying it.

02-24-2011, 07:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	What should be done about the pirates in Somalia? A few days ago, a group of pirates took over a sailboat with 4 Americans on-board. It looks like the US Navy stepped in (after being shot at), and things didn't turn out so good. Now, this has been going on for some time. And the USA Today thinks that organized crime has taken over instead of out-of-work fishermen. 4 American hostages killed by pirates, U.S. says - USATODAY.com Now, what should be done with Somalia? Should we just leave them alone and make all ships travel down to South Africa? Or should the UN or the major naval nations setup a blockade 12 miles off the coast. Any ships departing Somalia and crossing that line will be sunk? I know the Russians have taken a hard line stance and are using the old maritime laws on piracy to kill pirates. How Russians Deal With Pirates They just blow up the pirates boat with them tied up on it. I am thinking that the second option would be the right one. I know that there are already naval warships from lots of different nations there, but I don't see why we couldn't work together and block every boat along the 1800 mile long coast. Most of the coast is desert and wouldn't have much activity. Oh, and the 15 pirates that the Navy caught. I would recommend that they be shot or made to walk the plank a few hundred miles from shore. Why should we have to pay millions of taxpayer dollars to bring them here, put them on trial, and house them in jail for ~30 years? Last edited by ASU2003; 02-24-2011 at 07:07 PM..

02-24-2011, 07:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	I have to agree with enforcing old Pirate Law. Honestly right now there's no downside to a Somali pirate. If you succeed you get more money than most in America will ever see in their lives. If you fail... you get regular meals and a bed for the rest of your life. It's a daunting task that you can't catch everyone... but if a boat leaves the Somali Coast and they have guns either all guns must be thrown overboard or punch a hole in the boat and let them swim. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

02-25-2011, 05:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	There was an Italian cruise line that hired Israeli guards and in 2009 that fought off pirates. I am all for taking the fight there with a zero tolerance rule. If combat happens use over whelming force, until they get the picture. The pirates for the most part are teens and early 20s they make a fortune of money, and are treated like royalty. If we remove that incentive by using guards and force then it will be harder for them to recruit. __________________ Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

02-25-2011, 05:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	There's a better way to fight piracy coming out of Somalia. Finding an end to the civil war, finding an end to illegal foreign fishing, and finding a solution to the toxic waste problem. THE TWO PIRACIES IN SOMALIA: WHY THE WORLD IGNORES THE OTHER? 3. Toxic Waste Behind Somali Pirates \| Project Censored Alshahid Network Somalia deputy prime minister: Toxic waste dumping in Somali coast is the cause of piracy If all of this comes as a surprise to you (as it had to me), this might help you understand why: Jeff Nygaard: Pirates, Profits and Propaganda Brief history lesson: the civil war in Somalia has been going on since 1991, where 300,000 to 400,000 people have died (that's 3 to 4 times the estimated number of civilian deaths in the Iraq war). In 2010 alone, more than 3,000 people have died. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-25-2011 at 05:45 AM..

02-25-2011, 05:56 AM	#5 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	it might also help if governments stopped restricting the right to bear arms. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

02-25-2011, 08:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Man, I'm dizzy from that spin __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

02-25-2011, 11:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I think that you'd find that a majority of the nations that would normally respond to a call for naval assistance (read: Western Europe) would require a caveat barring executions. An international task force that would enforce the laws as written would involve some strange bedfellows - Russia, China, Iran, Egypt, the US, etc. The thing is that this smells a bit like "welfare queens" to me. By that I mean that you're looking at this as a low risk venture with no downside. It takes serious despiration to get into an open boat with a bunch of other armed men to chase down ships. I don't see that portion of the act as "low risk" given the possibilities of storms, breakdowns, bad navigation, failure to find any ships, etc. let alone finding a naval vessel by mistake. Let's remember that we have -no- data on how many pirates set out and never come back. It could be a huge percentage. It could be that all of them come back. We don't know. And I can't imagine that pirates think that jail in a foreign country is a spectacular tradeoff either. Finally, drugs are the problem in Somalia. If they were, there would be a bigger international outcry to fix the problem. These are simple warlords, interested only in controlling their little nest of territory. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

02-25-2011, 12:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	If I remember my Gilbert and Sullivan, all that needs to be done is for the Major General to invoke the pirates' loyalty to the Queen. They're all noblemen gone wrong, after all. As far as I'm concerned, the Somali pirate problem is social and economic at it's core. Somalia is still a country living in extreme poverty, leaving piracy as a viable method for making money and securing the future of one's family. This is classic in failed states, where people without access to regular opportunities, turn to alternative opportunities in order to make ends meet. It's so simple, even Time Magazine figured it out, eventually. In short the answer is, and I can't believe I'm typing this, nation-building. I'm not talking about unilateral invasion, occupation, foreign contractors, never-ending war, etc., I'm talking about a new type of nation building, which works a little bit at a time.

02-25-2011, 01:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	So what can be done beyond the 20+ nation anti-piracy naval commitments that are currently being undertaken in the area? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-25-2011, 02:23 PM	#21 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I was hoping someone would bring up nukes. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-25-2011, 02:36 PM	#22 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I think we can all agree that if the people on the sailboat were armed to the teeth, it would have been more difficult for pirates to take it over. It could have lead to a massive shootout at sea of the kinds we might see in a Bond movie, but the vessel would have been more difficult to take. Though I hate guns, I'm able to admit that.

02-25-2011, 02:50 PM	#24 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Then you should have said it instead of doing a drive-by on the the thread, dk. And maybe you want to deign to come down off that mountain of guns you're sitting on to tell us believers in naval power why we should arm recreational sailors that are dumb enough to leave their convoys in known pirate areas. Do you have any evidence that any of these folks wanted to carry guns? No, you don't. Do you have any evidence that if they wanted to carry guns that they were denied them? No, you don't. Do you know anything about the naval task force operating in the area? No, you don't. Congratulations, you've successfully trolled the thread. Whee. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-10-2011, 01:05 PM	#25 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	The whole average Somalian makes an average of $600 USD a year doesn't help.

03-12-2011, 01:05 PM	#26 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	$600 might be a lot if a house cost $5,000, food was $100/year, and a boat cost $1200... And if all of your neighbors were making that amount too... But rebuilding an economy can only be done if there isn't a large criminal cartel glamorizing 'easy' money

03-12-2011, 01:26 PM	#27 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	Give them a "Trial At Sea". Perhaps they need to be keelhauled first. I'm tired of pirates who think they can make the rules. They are wrong, and they need to be dealt with. __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

03-15-2011, 09:54 AM	#31 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	There are definitely international crimes and incursions into Somalian waters, but hijacking sailboats, naval ships, and shipping vessels with lots of guns isn't the way to stop the dumping. In the paper today, it said that 5 were convicted in the attack on a US Navy ship and will spend the rest of their lives in a US prison, that probably costs more than Tent City or a bullet. India captured 61 the other day, yet I don't know what they will do. They have enough people to take care of too.

03-15-2011, 10:08 AM	#32 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	So, again, the problem with Somalia isn't the pirates. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-15-2011, 10:35 AM	#33 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	... __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 03-15-2011 at 10:43 AM.. Reason: Whoops!

03-15-2011, 03:59 PM	#35 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Oh, I'm not saying the pirates don't cause problems in those waters. I'm saying that it doesn't help all that much to focus on them as one aspect. You aren't going to stop piracy simply by catching and punishing all the pirates you can. Why did we go into Afghanistan? Why didn't we just try to catch the terrorists coming out of there? Wasn't the problem simply with the terrorists? No. Most violence in the world has deeper root causes that go beyond the direct violence itself. We can focus on the violence to make us feel better that we're doing something to halt it. But will it stop more violence from arising? Not necessarily. Think about criminal activity. Much of that is tied into poverty. Poverty itself isn't necessarily solved by throwing money at it either. Like most major problems, it requires a multifaceted solution. In the case of poverty, it's often an issue of access to quality education (especially among women) and affordable health care and housing. With the piracy, the source is tied into a number of problems: civil war, pollution, illegal fishing, etc. You can go after the pirates, yes, but will it stop the piracy. I don't know. I say not likely. Why do we always think about Somalia these days when we think of piracy? What about all those other pirates causing problems elsewhere? What do you have to say about them? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-15-2011, 08:08 PM	#38 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Well, there are lots of things amiss in Somalia. The piracy to me seems like the tip of the iceberg. If there were an easy solution to stop the piracy, it would have been accomplished by now, if not reduced to a marginal issue. While it's a terrible thing that those 4 Americans lost their lives recently, it's a much greater travesty that the so-far-20-year Somali civil war death toll is up to 300,000 or 400,000. That's equivalent to about half the population of Washington, D.C. Oh, and toxic waste and illegal fishing. Somalia has been metaphorically raped repeatedly over a couple of decades now, and everyone is crying foul about the pirates but don't seem all that concerned about stopping the other stuff that's happening in the area. Yes, the piracy is bad. Yes, it would be great to stop it. Throwing naval power at it won't necessarily stop it. They've tried that. They're still trying it. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot