Illegal Immigrant supporters how safe do you feel right now? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 02-12-2011, 11:59 PM

All these revolts and changes in the Middle East. How long do you think it'll be before the new leaders see the ones they kicked out were nothing but paid puppets. Then they will ask, why did the USA not help us set up a democracy?
Mideast nations brace for Egypt spillover - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

Quote:

Bahrain is home to the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet and the most politically divided in the Gulf. Majority Shiites have long alleged they face second-class status under the Sunni rulers. Last summer, the tiny nation was torn by clashes and riots after a wave of arrests against perceived Shiite dissidents.

On Friday — just hours before Mubarak stepped down — Bahrain's King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa granted each Bahraini family the equivalent of nearly $2,700 in an apparent bid to calm tensions.

Quote:

Jordan
The nation's new prime minister, Marouf Bakhit, promised earlier this week to continue political reforms demanded by protesters who forced King Abdullah II to reshuffle the cabinet. Since the unrest in Tunisia and Egypt, Jordan's Muslim Brotherhood, their leftist allies and other protesters have demanded constitutional amendments to curb Abdullah's power in naming prime ministers and instead allow Jordanians to elect them by popular vote

Quote:

Yemen
President Ali Abdullah Saleh — a key U.S. ally in office for more than three decades — bowed to pressure from protesters and announced he would not seek re-election in 2013 and would not try to pass power to his son. The opposition has yet to respond to his call to join him in a unity government. Saleh, a key U.S. ally against al Qaida, met with his top defense, political and security officials Friday night to discuss a plan to raise salaries for civil servants and the military — a second planned wage increase since last month, when Saleh planned a raise of about $47.

The move suggests that Saleh, a shrewd political survivor eyeing spreading unrest in the Arab world, is trying to ensure his forces would remain loyal in case of potential unrest in the impoverished Arabian Peninsula state.

The Gulf nation with serious political opposition outlawed any "gatherings, rallies or marches" after Friday prayers, said a report on the state news agency KUNA.

"Everybody should put the interests of the homeland above all considerations," said the statement by Kuwait, which has key U.S. military bases and is an important way station for the U.S. military withdrawal from Iraq.

It also showed how close any unrest in the region comes to U.S. military and political bulwarks — seen as a critical front-line alignment against Iran.

This should be a very worisome thought to many of us here.

So my question is: if you support illigal and amnsetized immigration from Canada, Mexico, so called boat people from Cuba/Haiti and so on, are you 100% sure that these radical muslims will not come in trying to infiltrate our mosques and radicalize our own muslims? You can say"pan that won't happen". But as I see it we have how many crossing our borders illegally on a daily basis? How hard will it be, to convince Central Americans making pennies a day to make product here in the USA. To join radical islamist groups
to be trained, cross the border and go to a mall/stadium/school and release chemical warfare or blow a bomb up? If they are Illegal, we have no background on them. They don't even have to pull the trigger, start anything. They just infiltrate the mosques that use religious freedom to spew hate and revolt. Hopefully, they will begin to do what EVERY impoverished immigrant group did whenthey first got here, see the freedoms we have find jobs and work to build a better place for their children and drop the USA is SATAN and must be destroyed" thinking. Using that and working on some people's belief that America is racist and there is no chance to move forward, that everything is run by a one party system and that the wealthy have bought and paid for everything. Within the groups we do have here that are disillusioned enough and just mad even more so, to listen to the people, these radical illegal immigrants here only to start a flame and some dissension.

I don't see "love and peace" happening. I see more Iranian type radical government over there, hating the USA for keeping these sadistic dictators in power while the country did nothing to help the people in anyway,

I'm not feeling too safe right now. The Barbarians are knocking on the gates and Obama better stop playing that fucking violin and build a wall. Mke it hard to cross our borders. the only issues I can see is it may take longer to cross the Canadian border... that sucks, I love Toronto. It may take longer to cross the mexican border.... that sucks, they may increase the tequila rates.

I maybe Chicken Little sounding or the boy who cried wolf too many times. But you would have to be blind not to see that the real possibility exists.

dc_dux · 02-13-2011, 05:19 AM

Pan....yes, I think you are Chicken Little and and mimicking the ugly fear mongering rhetoric of the most blatant Islamaphobes (Frank Gafney, John Bolton, Glenn Beck.....) and only marginally less so, some of those in the mix for the Republican presidential nomination in 2012 (Huckabee, Gingrigh...).

First, who supports illegal immigration...or is that simply an inflammatory way to start the discussion?

Beyond that strange premise, you must have watched a different revolution in Egypt. In the one I saw, the masses were not screaming "the US is Satan and must be destroyed" or "kill the infidels" or even "Allah be praised", but groups of Coptic Christians and Muslims together celebrating the opportunity for democracy and basic human rights.

I dont doubt that some Muslims view the US as racists...but it is from rhetoric from those I named above that see a terrorist behind every Muslim and, that is seen and heard around the world, that present the greater danger to the US.

---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 AM ----------

BTW, the current protest in Algeria is being led by a secular political party, Rally for Culture and Democracy, not Islamic fundamentalists.

In Lebanon as well, which is secular and has many religions, the protests are as much against the role of Hezbollah in the government as anything else. It is political, not an uprising of Islamic fundamentalists.

Charlatan · 02-13-2011, 07:08 AM

So in the face of the imported hate, the plan is to spew equal amounts of hate in an attempt to preempt the hate?

Because, when I read things like the OP, all I see is a hate spewing, pessimist. I don't like to think of you that way Pan. Perhaps I am Pollyanna to your chicken little, but you are better than that.

Baraka_Guru · 02-13-2011, 07:24 AM

What's going on in the Middle East right now seems more a liberalization of Islam than a mobilization of fundamentalism. It's primarily a democratization of authoritarian states. This may make fundamentalists uneasy---human rights and freedoms tend to do that---but it shouldn't lead them to point their anger to America.

Actually, it's rather interesting: this current upheaval is happening despite American influence---either positive or negative---on self-determination of governance and societies. Even if you trace the source of the bad to American influence, the source of the good is overwhelming enough that it shifts any remnants of focus from America to the people themselves.

If things play out like the do in Egypt or Tunisia, it becomes more apparent that American geopolitical influence just doesn't matter so much as it did.

This is one symptom of several of the waning American empire. This not-mattering. Democratization is fascinating. It's wrests nations from the effects of imperialism.

roachboy · 02-13-2011, 07:57 AM

others have already made the central points.

the waning days of empire give rise to all manner of curious phenomena; imaginary persecutions, displacements about loss of power onto fantasies of loss of control. the imperialism game has never been in the control of us little people---we just bought the commodities like good little citizens---and there was never any impetus to understand the imperialism game---because if you take a commodity and turn it over you don't see the infrastructures that enabled it to be produced and distributed for that prices---you see the back of the commodity---so the imperialism game is invisible for folk whose politics operates at the retail level (you know off the shelf standard issue fox news talking head thinly veiled racist paranoia). but Something Is Happening. you just can't say what it is. must be the barbarians at the gate.

but you should read the cavafy poem, waiting for the barbarians.
it kinda sums up the fun and excitement to be had getting all paranoid and hysterical about imaginary fragmentation.

and all this democracy business breaking out. funny how that is correlated with the decline of the american empire. why you'd almost think that the americans liked the word democracy in the way stalin liked the word socialism....you know, the americans who run the show...not those who only see the retail face of things.....democracy is just a word. scary bad when it breaks out.

dc_dux · 02-13-2011, 09:21 AM

On the other side of this convoluted equation (the nonsense about illegal immigration supporters)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

....I'm not feeling too safe right now. The Barbarians are knocking on the gates and Obama better stop playing that fucking violin and build a wall. Mke it hard to cross our borders....

What fucking violin is that, pan?

Obama has increased the DHS budget, including border security, in each of his first two years and deported more illegal immigrants and audited more businesses that hire undocumented workers in each of those years.

ASU2003 · 02-13-2011, 09:54 AM

There is a wall in a lot of places now. I've seen it, it has kept me in this country instead of getting some drinks and attending some beach parties in Mexico...

On a side note, if Ron Paul wants my vote in 2012, all he would need to do is say that we aren't going to import OPEC oil and have to deal with the foreign policy issues relating to getting oil from certain people that oppress others.

Willravel · 02-13-2011, 12:16 PM

Quote:

A new study by sociologist Tim Wadsworth of the University of Colorado at Boulder carefully evaluates the various factors behind the statistics that show a massive drop in crime during the 1990s at a time when immigration rose dramatically. In a peer-reviewed paper appearing in the June 2010 issue of Social Science Quarterly, Wadsworth argues not only that “cities with the largest increases in immigration between 1990 and 2000 experienced the largest decreases in homicide and robbery,” which we knew, but that after considering all the other explanations, rising immigration “was partially responsible.”

How Immigrants Actually Reduce Crime - Newsweek

My country is made safer in part by increased immigration, regardless of whether they're Catholic people from Mexico or Muslim people from Syria. I welcome them as brothers and sisters with open arms.

YaWhateva · 02-13-2011, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I'm not feeling too safe right now. The Barbarians are knocking on the gates and Obama better stop playing that fucking violin and build a wall. Mke it hard to cross our borders. the only issues I can see is it may take longer to cross the Canadian border... that sucks, I love Toronto. It may take longer to cross the mexican border.... that sucks, they may increase the tequila rates.

Thinly veiled racism. Nice.

Willravel · 02-13-2011, 01:26 PM

OH GOD NO, DON'T CALL HIM A RACISt!!!1

Derwood · 02-13-2011, 01:36 PM

The amount of broad brush painting by pan makes my stomach turn.

dc_dux · 02-13-2011, 03:26 PM

I wouldnt call the OP racist, but certainly xenophobic, which unfortunately has been on the rise in the US, almost entirely from the right and bordering on a desire from some to become completely isolationist.

Baraka_Guru · 02-13-2011, 03:38 PM

The OP cited material and the accompanying question and argument struck me as odd. It was a huge leap.

How it goes from crumbling authoritarianism in North Africa and the Middle East to the negative implications of immigration in the U.S. is beyond me. It was a huge leap that rather lost me.

I'm not sure I follow.

YaWhateva · 02-13-2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I wouldnt call the OP racist, but certainly xenophobic, which unfortunately has been on the rise in the US, almost entirely from the right and bordering on a desire from some to become completely isolationist.

I will concede that it's probably more xenophobic. Still, barbarians...sigh. The jab at Mexico was pretty annoying too.

ring · 02-13-2011, 05:12 PM

Our media has done a fine job of instilling fear & keeping
the hearth of adrenaline pumping.
It's not just cable 'news.' It's pervasive throughout other programs as well.

Animal planet's channel has been featuring mostly: "The most dangerous & fierce killers"

For quite some time now,
The History channel, A&E & even National Geographic's programming has been heavily geared toward "Catastrophic what if scenarios"

If most folk regularly tune in to this type of fear mongering, it's no wonder they
could be convinced the sky is falling.

Seaver · 02-13-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:

I don't see "love and peace" happening. I see more Iranian type radical government over there, hating the USA for keeping these sadistic dictators in power while the country did nothing to help the people in anyway,

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1Dtzoh8sm

What the hell are you watching Pan? The majority of Egypt wants secular rule like America, the majority wants to keep peace with Israel, and the VAST majority (80% last poll I saw) strongly opposed theocratic rule. Hell they poll more strongly against theocratic rule than the US does.

Honestly you should be celebrating. Egypt has just does more harm to Al Qaeda than we have since before 9/11. Please understand this statement comes from a man who signed up before 9/11, and has been raised in the military. I spent my undergraduate time studying the M.E. as I assumed that's where the future conflicts would be centered for the next decade.

A free, open, Arab society in a populous nation which holds more of the collective Psyche than almost any other country, free of American "interference" is the worst nightmare for Al Qaeda as it is a beacon of light against their dark theologies.

Ignore the Muslim Brotherhood or any moron who plays them as a boogeyman. Again, I did 4 studies on them in college. First their entire leadership is in prison. They were rounded up day 1, before the protests started. Second, the Westboro Baptists garner more support in the US than the MB does in Egypt. Yeah... more Americans believe in someone who claims God invented IEDs because he hates a country that allows Gays not to be openly hung, than Egyptians believe this mysterious boogeymen group. Hell, they're not even on the damn terrorist watch list, and I believe my Grandma is even on that damn list.

Willravel · 02-13-2011, 09:31 PM

You did 4 studies on the Muslim Brotherhood in school? That's awesome. Would you mind starting a thread about that, because I have a few questions that wikipedia isn't qualified to answer.

Charlatan · 02-13-2011, 09:56 PM

Here's the thing... for years people in the west have been asking where is the voice of moderate Islam? Many pointed to voice of fundamentalism and have suggested that *all* Muslims share this point of view.

Now is the time to pay close attention. The moderates have found the voice and their courage. They are speaking. Will you listen or will you meet their call the face the fundamentalists have (falsely) accused you of having?

Seaver · 02-14-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

You did 4 studies on the Muslim Brotherhood in school? That's awesome. Would you mind starting a thread about that, because I have a few questions that wikipedia isn't qualified to answer.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1DyawzZ5W

I wouldn't mind, but I feel there are members here who would do it more justice than I. Simply for the fact it's been half a decade and I'm not as fresh as I once was. If you have specific questions feel free to hit me up though.

yournamehere · 02-14-2011, 03:03 PM

$2 Billion a year in aid can make a lot of people forget about who got it last year.
When it comes to international relations, money can buy you love.

02-13-2011, 05:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Pan....yes, I think you are Chicken Little and and mimicking the ugly fear mongering rhetoric of the most blatant Islamaphobes (Frank Gafney, John Bolton, Glenn Beck.....) and only marginally less so, some of those in the mix for the Republican presidential nomination in 2012 (Huckabee, Gingrigh...). First, who supports illegal immigration...or is that simply an inflammatory way to start the discussion? Beyond that strange premise, you must have watched a different revolution in Egypt. In the one I saw, the masses were not screaming "the US is Satan and must be destroyed" or "kill the infidels" or even "Allah be praised", but groups of Coptic Christians and Muslims together celebrating the opportunity for democracy and basic human rights. I dont doubt that some Muslims view the US as racists...but it is from rhetoric from those I named above that see a terrorist behind every Muslim and, that is seen and heard around the world, that present the greater danger to the US. ---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 AM ---------- BTW, the current protest in Algeria is being led by a secular political party, Rally for Culture and Democracy, not Islamic fundamentalists. In Lebanon as well, which is secular and has many religions, the protests are as much against the role of Hezbollah in the government as anything else. It is political, not an uprising of Islamic fundamentalists. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-13-2011 at 05:40 AM..

02-13-2011, 07:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	So in the face of the imported hate, the plan is to spew equal amounts of hate in an attempt to preempt the hate? Because, when I read things like the OP, all I see is a hate spewing, pessimist. I don't like to think of you that way Pan. Perhaps I am Pollyanna to your chicken little, but you are better than that. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-13-2011, 07:24 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	What's going on in the Middle East right now seems more a liberalization of Islam than a mobilization of fundamentalism. It's primarily a democratization of authoritarian states. This may make fundamentalists uneasy---human rights and freedoms tend to do that---but it shouldn't lead them to point their anger to America. Actually, it's rather interesting: this current upheaval is happening despite American influence---either positive or negative---on self-determination of governance and societies. Even if you trace the source of the bad to American influence, the source of the good is overwhelming enough that it shifts any remnants of focus from America to the people themselves. If things play out like the do in Egypt or Tunisia, it becomes more apparent that American geopolitical influence just doesn't matter so much as it did. This is one symptom of several of the waning American empire. This not-mattering. Democratization is fascinating. It's wrests nations from the effects of imperialism. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-13-2011 at 07:52 AM..

02-13-2011, 07:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	others have already made the central points. the waning days of empire give rise to all manner of curious phenomena; imaginary persecutions, displacements about loss of power onto fantasies of loss of control. the imperialism game has never been in the control of us little people---we just bought the commodities like good little citizens---and there was never any impetus to understand the imperialism game---because if you take a commodity and turn it over you don't see the infrastructures that enabled it to be produced and distributed for that prices---you see the back of the commodity---so the imperialism game is invisible for folk whose politics operates at the retail level (you know off the shelf standard issue fox news talking head thinly veiled racist paranoia). but Something Is Happening. you just can't say what it is. must be the barbarians at the gate. but you should read the cavafy poem, waiting for the barbarians. it kinda sums up the fun and excitement to be had getting all paranoid and hysterical about imaginary fragmentation. and all this democracy business breaking out. funny how that is correlated with the decline of the american empire. why you'd almost think that the americans liked the word democracy in the way stalin liked the word socialism....you know, the americans who run the show...not those who only see the retail face of things.....democracy is just a word. scary bad when it breaks out. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-13-2011, 01:36 PM	#11 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	The amount of broad brush painting by pan makes my stomach turn. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

02-13-2011, 09:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	There is a wall in a lot of places now. I've seen it, it has kept me in this country instead of getting some drinks and attending some beach parties in Mexico... On a side note, if Ron Paul wants my vote in 2012, all he would need to do is say that we aren't going to import OPEC oil and have to deal with the foreign policy issues relating to getting oil from certain people that oppress others.

02-13-2011, 01:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	OH GOD NO, DON'T CALL HIM A RACISt!!!1

02-13-2011, 03:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	I wouldnt call the OP racist, but certainly xenophobic, which unfortunately has been on the rise in the US, almost entirely from the right and bordering on a desire from some to become completely isolationist. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

02-13-2011, 03:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The OP cited material and the accompanying question and argument struck me as odd. It was a huge leap. How it goes from crumbling authoritarianism in North Africa and the Middle East to the negative implications of immigration in the U.S. is beyond me. It was a huge leap that rather lost me. I'm not sure I follow. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-13-2011, 05:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Our media has done a fine job of instilling fear & keeping the hearth of adrenaline pumping. It's not just cable 'news.' It's pervasive throughout other programs as well. Animal planet's channel has been featuring mostly: "The most dangerous & fierce killers" For quite some time now, The History channel, A&E & even National Geographic's programming has been heavily geared toward "Catastrophic what if scenarios" If most folk regularly tune in to this type of fear mongering, it's no wonder they could be convinced the sky is falling.

02-13-2011, 09:31 PM	#17 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You did 4 studies on the Muslim Brotherhood in school? That's awesome. Would you mind starting a thread about that, because I have a few questions that wikipedia isn't qualified to answer.

02-13-2011, 09:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Here's the thing... for years people in the west have been asking where is the voice of moderate Islam? Many pointed to voice of fundamentalism and have suggested that all Muslims share this point of view. Now is the time to pay close attention. The moderates have found the voice and their courage. They are speaking. Will you listen or will you meet their call the face the fundamentalists have (falsely) accused you of having? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-14-2011, 03:03 PM	#20 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	$2 Billion a year in aid can make a lot of people forget about who got it last year. When it comes to international relations, money can buy you love. __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.