Revolution in Tunisia & Egypt, Protests in Libya, Bahrain, Oman & Yemen - Page 10 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dc_dux · 03-03-2011, 01:43 PM

Right...it has nothing to do with corruption, lack of oversight of elections and human rights, secret prisons....

Quote:

Mr Maliki is becoming still more authoritarian. In January a supreme federal court ruling allowed several independent institutions, including the central bank and various committees that are meant to oversee elections, fight graft and uphold human rights, to fall under the control of the executive. Mr Maliki has been trying to place his allies in several of these outfits. Qassim Aboudi, who heads the electoral committee, said he feared that Mr Maliki would interfere even more in the next election than he did in the past one. Worst of all, reports have been circulating that security forces loyal to Mr Maliki are again running secret prisons where detainees are being tortured.

Protests in Iraq: Even a democracy is not immune | The Economist

Cimarron29414 · 03-03-2011, 01:51 PM

Facts in Green
Opinions in Yellow
Unsubstantiated bullshit in Red

Quote:

Mr Maliki is becoming still more authoritarian. In January a supreme federal court ruling allowed several independent institutions, including the central bank and various committees that are meant to oversee elections, fight graft and uphold human rights, to fall under the control of the executive. Mr Maliki has been trying to place his allies in several of these outfits. Qassim Aboudi, who heads the electoral committee, said he feared that Mr Maliki would interfere even more in the next election than he did in the past one. Worst of all, reports have been circulating that security forces loyal to Mr Maliki are again running secret prisons where detainees are being tortured.

So, all we know is that the supreme court shuffled the oversight committees under the president (Czars) and Adoudi heads the electoral committee.

dc_dux · 03-03-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

Facts in Green
Opinions in Yellow
Unsubstantiated bullshit in Red

So, all we know is that the supreme court shuffled the oversight committees under the president (Czars) and Adoudi heads the electoral committee.

I guess it depends on how much credibility you give to a report from Human Rights Watch released last month.

Quote:

The rights of Iraq's most vulnerable citizens, especially women and detainees, are routinely violated with impunity, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Human Rights Watch conducted research in seven cities across Iraq during 2010 and found that, beyond the country's continuing violence and crimes, human rights abuses are commonplace.

The 102-page report, "At a Crossroads: Human Rights in Iraq Eight Years After the US-led Invasion," calls on the government to protect the rights of vulnerable groups and to amend its penal code and all other laws that discriminate against women and violate freedom of speech. The report also urges Baghdad to open independent and impartial investigations into all allegations of abuse against detainees, minorities, and journalists....

...Increasingly, journalists find themselves harassed, intimidated, threatened, detained, and physically assaulted by security forces attached to government institutions or political parties. Senior politicians are quick to sue journalists and their publications for unflattering articles....

...Human Rights Watch also found that Iraqi interrogators routinely abuse detainees, regardless of sect, usually to coerce confessions. Despite knowing there was a clear risk of torture, US authorities transferred thousands of Iraqi detainees to Iraqi custodians, who have continued a tradition of torture that was also the case under Saddam Hussein and coalition forces.

Iraq: Vulnerable Citizens at Risk | Human Rights Watch

roachboy · 03-03-2011, 02:16 PM

At Least 29 Dead in Iraq Protest Crackdowns -- News from Antiwar.com

Failure and Frustration Mar Baghdad's Day of Protest - Ben Van Heuvelen - International - The Atlantic

interesting information about iraq.
the first to confirm what dc's posted above.
the second as a description of protests from more ground-level perspectives.

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ----------

At Least 29 Dead in Iraq Protest Crackdowns -- News from Antiwar.com

Failure and Frustration Mar Baghdad's Day of Protest - Ben Van Heuvelen - International - The Atlantic

interesting information about iraq.
the first to confirm what dc's posted above.
the second as a description of protests from more ground-level perspectives.

this is an interesting resource:

http://www.iraqoilreport.com/politic...andscape-5419/

the link takes you to an analysis of the protests by the same guy as wrote the atlantic piece.
it requires either a subscription or a free trial to access the whole thing.
i've got to go now, but maybe will free-trial it up later.
or if someone else feels so inspired, please do.
and give an idea of the contents more generally please.

Charlatan · 03-03-2011, 05:00 PM

Ace is right. It is the economy. The problem, Ace, is that you can't seem to see, or aren't willing to concede, that in order for the economy to be increasingly liberal, the levers of power must be held by those who will take care of the people first and their own corrupt selves second.

As has been pointed out, the economy in Iraq isn't neccessarily the problem. It's access to the benefits of that economy that is.

Healthy nations are ruled by laws rather than people. And the law needs to be impartially enforced, regardless of who breaks them.

Corruption and rule of law may be highfalutin mumbo-jumbo to you, but you've never lived in a place that doesn't have little of the former and plenty of the latter.

aceventura3 · 03-08-2011, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Ace is right. It is the economy. The problem, Ace, is that you can't seem to see, or aren't willing to concede, that in order for the economy to be increasingly liberal, the levers of power must be held by those who will take care of the people first and their own corrupt selves second.

I see that. My point has been that given real economic opportunity it does not matter what form of government is employed. When people are empowered economically, corruption can be self-correcting, with the exception of military force being employed in a "free market".

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

right. nothing to see here, folks. ace has determined that the Problem in iraq has nothing to do with incompetence or corruption or american colonial domination.

Roach, you clearly don't get it. Hilery Clinton does. I knew I liked her for some reason. Perhaps she is also a neo-con capitalist pig. When large percentages of people in a nation are not allowed capitalistic opportunity, the nation will have perpetual problems in a competitive world economy. Try to get up to speed and connect your own dots.

Quote:

By Hillary Rodham Clinton - Mar 8, 2011 12:05 AM ET

One of the biggest growth markets in the world may surprise you.

You’ve heard about the opportunities opening up in countries like China, regions like Asia and industries like green technology. But one major emerging market hasn’t received the attention it deserves: women.

Today, there are more than 200 million women entrepreneurs worldwide. Women earn more than $10 trillion every year, which is expected to grow by $5 trillion over the next several years. In many developing countries, women’s incomes are growing faster than men’s.

Facts such as these should persuade governments and business leaders worldwide to see investing in women as a strategy for job creation and economic growth. Many are doing so. Yet the pool of talented women is underutilized, underpaid and underrepresented in business and society.

Throughout the world, women do two-thirds of the work, yet they earn just one-third of the income and own less than 2 percent of the land. Three billion people don’t have access to basic financial services we take for granted, like bank accounts and lines of credit; the majority of them are women.

Certainly we are seeing the impact of excluding women in the Middle East, where the lack of their access to education and business has hampered economic development and helped lead to social unrest.

Ripple Effect

If we invest in women’s education and give them the opportunity to access credit or start a small business, we add fuel to a powerful engine for progress for women, their families, their communities and their countries. Women invest up to 90 percent of their incomes on their families and in their communities.

When women have equal access to education and health care and the freedom to start businesses, the economic, political and social benefits ripple out far beyond their own home.

At the State Department, we are supporting women worldwide as a critical element of U.S. foreign policy. We are incorporating women’s entrepreneurship into our international economic agenda and promoting women’s access to markets through the African Growth and Opportunity Act, the Pathways to Prosperity Initiative and women’s entrepreneurship conferences.

The U.S. is hosting the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum 2011 to help foster growth and increase opportunities for women throughout the region. We are working with the private sector to provide grants to local non-governmental organizations around the world that are dedicated to women and girls.

Closing the Gap

We are encouraging governments and the private sector to use the tools at their disposal to provide credit, banking and insurance services to more women. Through our mWomen initiative, we will begin to close the gender gap in access to mobile technology, which will improve health care, literacy, education and economic potential.

This is a central focus of my diplomatic outreach. Wherever I go around the world, I meet with governments, international organizations and civic groups to talk about economic policies that will help their countries grow by expanding women’s access to jobs and finance.

Many powerful U.S. businesses have embraced this mission as their own. ExxonMobil Corp. is training women entrepreneurs to help them advocate for policies to create more opportunities. Coca-Cola Co. has issued an ambitious challenge in its “5 by 20” program to empower and train 5 million new women entrepreneurs across the globe by 2020.

Improving Access

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. started the “10,000 Women” initiative to open the door for women who would not otherwise have access to a business education. Ernst & Young is tapping into the productive potential of women with its “Winning Women” program to help female entrepreneurs learn growth strategies from some of the most successful leaders in the U.S. Companies all over the world are committed to increasing productivity, driving economic growth and harnessing the power of emerging markets through greater diversity.

As Robert Zoellick, president of the World Bank said, gender equality is smart economics.”

Governments are passing laws that support women’s economic empowerment and building awareness of women’s rights. Botswana lifted restrictions on the industries in which women can work, for example. Morocco now allows women to start businesses and get jobs without their husbands’ approval. Bolivia began a land titling effort to recognize that women and men have equal rights to own property.
Astonishing Achievements

This week, we celebrate the 100th anniversary of International Women’s Day. It’s an occasion for honoring the achievements of women. Without question, the past century has brought astonishing progress, by just about every measure, in women’s health, their economic opportunities, political power and more. Today, women are leaders in every field.

Never in history have there been so many forces working together for gender equity.

But International Women’s Day is also an occasion for recognizing how much more needs to be done to support women and girls worldwide. I encourage everyone reading this to reflect on what you and your friends can do to support women -- to put words and ideas into action.

If we decide -- as societies, governments and businesses -- to invest in women and girls, we will strengthen our efforts to fight poverty, drive development and spread stability. When women thrive, families, communities and countries thrive -- and the world becomes more peaceful and prosperous.

I Know the Secret to Economic Growth: Hillary Rodham Clinton - Bloomberg

Oh, my. Another Bloomberg article. I already know Bloomberg is not on the Roach list of approved sources of information. Consider, that may be the reason he is not up to speed. Ha, Ha, he thinks US "colonialism" is the reason for the failure of economic development in places around the world. Wow, it ain't the 60's any more.

roachboy · 03-08-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Oh, my. Another Bloomberg article. I already know Bloomberg is not on the Roach list of approved sources of information. Consider, that may be the reason he is not up to speed. Ha, Ha, he thinks US "colonialism" is the reason for the failure of economic development in places around the world. Wow, it ain't the 60's any more.

drivel, ace. of the kind that one sees when the poster's got nothing to say at all but vanity requires that one go on anyway.

dc_dux · 03-08-2011, 09:59 AM

Latest developments in Iraq:

Quote:

Two political parties that led demonstrations in Baghdad over the past two weeks said Monday that security forces controlled by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki had ordered them to close their offices.

The actions, which the government said were merely evictions, came amid growing concerns that Mr. Maliki’s American-backed government is using force and other measures to stifle dissent in this fragile democracy, where tens of thousands of demonstrators have seized on the upheaval sweeping the Arab world to rally for government reforms and better services...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/wo....html?_r=2&hpw

SO now its not just journalists being harassed, intimidated, threatened, detained, and physically assaulted by security forces attached to government institutions, but its the government attempting to shut down opposition parties.

These are not economic issues.

roachboy · 03-08-2011, 10:09 AM

over the weekend, egyptian protestors sacked the state police offices in alexandria, giza and nasr city after word leaked out that the police were shredding and otherwise destroying documents pertaining to their activities, presumably to avoid prosecution (though the motive is not clear exactly).

here's an account:

Egyptian Chronicles: The night the capital of Hell fell down !!

tunisia abolished their secret police altogether:

It’s Official: Tunisia Now Freer than the U.S. | Informed Comment

prompting this commentator to say the obvious: tunisia is now more free than is the united states and will remain more free until the national security state is dismantled here.

these are not economic issues.

aceventura3 · 03-08-2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

drivel, ace. of the kind that one sees when the poster's got nothing to say at all but vanity requires that one go on anyway.

Understanding the causes of economic strife in the ME is drivel?
Connecting the causes of economic strife to protests and revolution in the ME is drivel?

I must say you are my favorite non-neo-con, anti-capitalist pig that I have ever had the privilege of interacting with. Please tell me more about "the man" and how "the man" is oppressing the masses in a vast conspiracy that is only known to the most elite intellectuals, such as yourself.

roachboy · 03-08-2011, 11:33 AM

ace--you offer nothing remotely like an understanding of anything in the middle east. you offer the same lame warmed-over neoliberal bullshit you always offer.

the thread has been about trying to understand things by looking at actual information.

you offer nothing. why waste your time with this? go play somewhere else.

aceventura3 · 03-08-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

These are not economic issues.

So, the government reforms and better "services" are related to...what? I am betting that some are a bit upset that they have yet to get the benefit of economic opportunity, and that when they do they will be satisfied. I acknowledge that there will always be people fighting for political power and political control, but that as a given, is not the reason people at the grassroots level revolt against their government.

---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

ace--you offer nothing remotely like an understanding of anything in the middle east. you offer the same lame warmed-over neoliberal bullshit you always offer.

the thread has been about trying to understand things by looking at actual information.

you offer nothing. why waste your time with this? go play somewhere else.

You say that because you can't get passed my style of posting and actually read what I have shared. Pretty much a "you" problem.

roachboy · 03-08-2011, 12:23 PM

right ace. your simplistic take on things--which can't even get by the self-evident fact that economic relations are not separable from other forms of social relations on the one hand, and that the economy is only *one* of the issues that's driving the revolts happening in north africa now, and bubbling in the middle east---is a "me" problem.

got it. my problem that i can't get with your simple-minded viewpoint.
right.

aceventura3 · 03-08-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

right ace. your simplistic take on things--which can't even get by the self-evident fact that economic relations are not separable from other forms of social relations on the one hand, and that the economy is only *one* of the issues that's driving the revolts happening in north africa now, and bubbling in the middle east---is a "me" problem.

got it. my problem that i can't get with your simple-minded viewpoint.
right.

You see, your problem is you think it is just me. Anyone who has read anything from the sources I have shared knows better. Even what you may consider liberal organizations and people agree with the causes if not the solutions. Here is another example:

Quote:

Unlike the 2008 global food crisis, when 37 countries faced food riots, ousting the Haiti president in the process, spiralling fuel and food prices, especially since September 2010, have been more piercing this time resulting in a strong political tsunami. It all began when Russia, faced with extended drought and widespread wildfires, brought in an export ban till the next year’s wheat harvest, thereby propelling global prices to an unreasonable hike.

Deadly food riots were witnessed in September in Mozambique, killing at least seven people. According to news reports, anger was then building up in Pakistan, Egypt and Serbia over rising prices. In the first week of January, Algeria faced food riots. A few days later, Tunisia sounded the first bugle, ousting its president, and Egypt followed.

As early as in September, Financial Times had reported that wheat futures had taken advantage, and that wheat prices internationally had gone up by 70 percent since January 2010. This happened at a time when there was neither shortfall in production nor any appreciable rise in demand. Egypt, which imports nearly 50 percent of its food requirement, was hit badly when Russia decided to ban wheat exports. Many believe that the Switzerland-based food major Glencore actually forced the Russian government, which had enough wheat reserves, to impose a ban on exports thereby sparking a killing in the futures market.

The social and political unrest that has swept the Arab hinterland is a pointer to a grave crisis ahead. Although Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the head of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) agrees that the rising food and fuel prices in recent months are the major factors behind the massive anti-government protests, he suggests more of the same prescription: “As tensions between countries increase, we could see rising protectionism – of trade and of finance.”

Caught in the food pirates? trap | Environment/Nature |Axisoflogic.com

Do you acknowledge the statement from the head of the IMF?

I repeat the same themes because you want what I post to be about me and not the issue. You want to pretend there is some grand conspiracy at the root of these revolts and that people are responding to the conspiracy - when all they really want is 3 squares, a place to call home and a thing called opportunity to improve their lives (or as we capitalists pigs think, make excessive profits and get rich from the fruits of our labor, property and intellect). As Clinton says, open economic opportunity to all, including women, and see big improvements in society.

roachboy · 03-08-2011, 02:36 PM

ace--what is your problem?

OF COURSE THERE IS AN ECONOMIC DIMENSION THAT LAY BEHIND THESE ACTIONS.
THERE ARE ALSO POLITICAL DIMENSIONS THAT ARE NOT REDUCIBLE TO THE ECONOMIC.

pages and pages into this thread and you continue to repeat the obvious as if somehow or another that's not been taken into account---repeatedly---in the course of the thread.

and you insist on a useless frame that sometimes separates the economic from everything else or---worse---reduces absolutely everything to the econmic-----and then because your way of framing the obvious isn't taken at all seriously----and it isnt----you come back and pretend that therefore the economic dimension of these actions is being excluded.

and that's in your imagination, that exclusion of economic factors. nowhere else.
the exclusion of your way of looking at those factors is absolutely everywhere in this thread. over and over.

i don't know what you think you're accomplishing.

Willravel · 03-08-2011, 02:52 PM

Did RB just use caps?

dc_dux · 03-08-2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Did RB just use caps?

When one is repeatedly confronted with ignorance and/or obstinance despite the facts, one might tend to express frustration in a manner outside the norm of one's behavior.

ring · 03-08-2011, 04:42 PM

In the not too recent past,
Ace has admitted to posting his drivel just to get a rise out of folk.

Oh oh oh, roach used caps!
Now Ace is sitting with his feet up on the desk chuckling, "Winning!"

I'm off to find some links worthy of the serious discussion that this thread has been mostly about.

Here's two:

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...etry-of-revolt

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...ward_-vote-now

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

two more:

The Associated Press: Egyptian women's rights protest marred by hecklers

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...nd-petition%29

roachboy · 03-09-2011, 07:40 AM

a couple accounts of what happened to the march in support of expanded political rights for women in the new egypt yesterday:

people were handing out this flyer:

Quote:

The flyer had the following demands:

1. Women's participation in shaping Egypt's constitutional, legal and political future.
2. A new civil constitution that respects citizenship, espouses equality and abolishes discrimination.
3. Amending laws so that it give full equality and rights, including personal status law.
4. Not allowing women's reproductive role to take over her participation in public and private life.
5. Establishing law for criminalization of violence against women inside and outside their home.
6. The constitution must allow women to run for presidency.

which personally i cannot imagine not supporting...but that was apparently not the attitude taken by folk around tahrir square:

Rebel With A Cause: Faggots for Whores? Or What happened to Women March in Tahrir

another:

International Women's Day inCairo - Blog - The Arabist

it's a process. it's good that these issues are on the table and that the demo got the amount of exposure that it did. and sad.

aceventura3 · 03-09-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

ace--what is your problem?

OF COURSE THERE IS AN ECONOMIC DIMENSION THAT LAY BEHIND THESE ACTIONS.
THERE ARE ALSO POLITICAL DIMENSIONS THAT ARE NOT REDUCIBLE TO THE ECONOMIC.

For example one of those political dimensions involves the rights of women, or the rights of non-Muslims. I am the only one who has been willing to make declarative stances in support of for example, equal rights for women, and people of all religions in the ME, and that any revolution or change in leadership is empty without those rights. You have been silent on the political issues of most importance.

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

When one is repeatedly confronted with ignorance and/or obstinance despite the facts, one might tend to express frustration in a manner outside the norm of one's behavior.

What facts are you talking about?

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ring

In the not too recent past,
Ace has admitted to posting his drivel just to get a rise out of folk.

No doubt that I pick on Roach, but there is a reason. I would have to go back over the course of a year or two and read our exchanges if you don't understand why.

Quote:

Oh oh oh, roach used caps!
Now Ace is sitting with his feet up on the desk chuckling, "Winning!"

I can not win or lose anything here. What I get is a better understanding of the points of view of people who disagree with me. I continue to ask pointed questions and tolerate the insults because of a personality flaw that does not allow me to easily walk away when normal people would. I assume when people respond to me rather than the point presented, they actually have no response to the point presented. I often find that enlightening. I do it here because in normal life I make a special effort to avoid painting people into corners based on il-conceived points of view they may hold.

roachboy · 03-09-2011, 12:26 PM

on the weekend protestors broke into state security/secret police officees in alexandria, giza and---especially----nasr city, the main headquarters, the capital of hell.

a summary:

Quote:

Egyptian activists move to shut down infamous secret police
Emad Mekay, The Electronic Intifada, 9 March 2011

CAIRO (IPS) - The much-feared secret police and intelligence service that protected the regime of former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak by arresting, torturing and even killing opponents has started a wave of burning documents and evidence that could incriminate them, as calls escalate for abolishing the force altogether and bringing its officers to justice.

Hundreds of protesters surrounded the main office Saturday of Amn al-Dawla, the State Security Police, in 6th of October City, 30 kilometers south of Cairo, to try to stop the burning of files believed to contain incriminating evidence of human rights abuses.

Protesters were shouting "Justice, justice for they fired bullets on us." Army tanks and armored vehicles were cordoning off the offices to protect the besieged secret police officers.

Heaps of documents and files were on fire. Dozens of protesters used wooden ladders to take a peek from above a three-meter-high fence. Some managed to salvage lightly burned files. The documents could provide insights on how the secret police operated with complete impunity under Mubarak for thirty years.

Similar protests broke out in the Mediterranean city of Alexandria and in Sharkia, a province northeast of Cairo. Protesters asked for disbanding the force after word spread on Friday night that officers were shredding documents and setting fire to "top secret" documents.

Eyewitnesses in Alexandria told local TV stations that officers cornered inside the building opened fire on the protesters, injuring at least three.

Disbanding the force would be the next most important landmark in the process of the Egyptian revolution, after it succeeded in ousting the Western-backed Mubarak on 11 February, and the dissolution of parliament a few days later.

Amn al-Dawla resembles the Iranian Savak force under the Shah of Iran in the 1970s. That force was later eliminated by the Islamic revolution.

The draconian force had instilled fear among most Egyptians and was often the main friction point between the public and the Mubarak regime. Thousands have been kidnapped and tortured by Amn al-Dawla officers.

The force, whose exact number and budget remain a secret, controlled almost all aspects of life in the nation of 85 million. Its reports are said to have shaped the future of most professionals in the country.

No government appointments were made without approval of the secret police. Political activists risked at the least a ban on travel overseas. Young army officers were put under surveillance to ensure loyalty to Mubarak. Spies were planted everywhere, including in shopping malls and sports clubs to monitor public sentiment.

"They banned all of us men over sixty years old from gathering inside mosques after prayers to read the Quran," says Hajj Mohammed Ali. "They banned any gathering. They wanted to control the people with an iron fist."

Others tell more dramatic stories. Sayed al-Gazzar, a secondary school teacher, recounted how his brother Khaled was detained by Amn al-Dawla in Sharkia for three days for not carrying an ID card.

"He came out a sick person with lots of mental problems because of the heavy torture he endured," al-Gazzar told IPS. "We spent a year going from one doctor to the other to find a cure for him. But he died a year later leaving behind three children and a wife without any income. They killed him."

It is such heart-wrenching stories that started off a campaign in Egypt to disband and investigate the force after the toppling of Mubarak.

Calls are mounting on Facebook and Twitter to surround more offices of the secret police force to save the important documents.

The coalition of the 25 January revolution (25 January is when the first big protest was held) -- a loosely formed grouping of young leaders of the uprising -- threatened to launch sit-ins around the country if the army doesn't order the end of the Amn al-Dawla, or moves to preserve evidence of its human rights abuses.

"Our unequivocal request is the elimination of that police force," the group said in a statement sent to IPS. "We will continue to escalate pressure within hours ... including issuing calls for masses of Egyptians to demonstrate until that police force is abolished."

But the spread of protests to other offices of Amn al-Dawla could lead to renewed violence as the force is well-armed, and its members didn't hesitate in the past to shoot at demonstrations.

New Prime Minister Essam Sharaf is more responsive to disbanding the force, probing abuses by the force and holding its officers accountable. Sharaf has made statements against the force before.

Interior Minister Mahmoud Wagdy, an old guard figure, has resisted calls to dissolve the powerful force, preferring instead to "restructure" it.

Human rights groups and revolution activists have vowed to press ahead with their demands to remove all symbols of the former regime.

On Thursday, the Cairo-based Arab Network for Human Rights Information published a series of leaked documents that detail the "crimes" of the secret police. In a statement, the group entitled the release: Countdown to End Amn al-Dawla.

ei: Egyptian activists move to shut down infamous secret police

a more detailed blog account with clips, photos, eyewitness accounts:

Egyptian Chronicles: The night the capital of Hell fell down !!

meanwhile, tunisia abolished its secret police altogether:

It’s Official: Tunisia Now Freer than the U.S. | Informed Comment

but here in the imperial backwater, it's national-security state business as usual

Obama's new executive order on Guantanamo - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

and the neo-fascist wing of the republican party goes still further:

The Peter King "Radicalization of Muslims" Hearing and American Democracy

it's curious watching people struggling to free themselves in north africa as conservatives work to limit freedom in the states, isn't it?

aceventura3 · 03-09-2011, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

it's curious watching people struggling to free themselves in north africa as conservatives work to limit freedom in the states, isn't it?

All you folks on my back - ignore stuff written like what is shown above. Am I to believe that I am the only one who finds the above to be the most problematic statement in a post today? I assume, yes. And so it will continue...

mixedmedia · 03-09-2011, 12:43 PM

yes, it is very problematic. because it's true.

aceventura3 · 03-09-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

yes, it is very problematic. because it's true.

A young woman in the ME can be raped and then murdered by her own family in many parts of the ME with no justice (and they are not even fighting for any rights for the young woman in this revolution), and you find that comparable to...what that "conservatives" are doing in the country? Unbelievable.

roachboy · 03-09-2011, 12:50 PM

from the article about that neo-fascist fuckwit peter king's circus hearings:

Quote:

In this atmosphere, King’s selective hyperbole and his planned hearing on “American Muslim radicalization” has been criticized extensively as a terrible idea by people including Representative Michael Honda (D-CA), hundreds of Christian, Je...wish, and Muslim religious leaders and members of the clergy. Even conservative commentator and frequent Muslim-basher Daniel Pipes thinks that King's hearing is misguided. The liberal advocacy organization Muslim Advocates and other advocacy groups all agree: the hearings are counterproductive to stopping terrorism at best, and will very likely be nothing more than a prominent showcase of racist misinformation. A cadre of experts gathered on Capitol Hill last week to offer a briefing to Congress on Islamophobia and to show why the King hearing would be counterproductive. Many advocates have implored King to change the focus of his hearing away from singling out Muslims and toward investigating violent extremists of all kinds. The lack of any evidence that the hearing is necessary for improving counterterrorism efforts shows that it isn’t really about “Muslim radicalization” at all. The hearing is all about Peter King, and his role as an ideological kingmaker for his party.

racist paranoia. imaginary conspiracies.
conservative politics 101.
check.

people in north africa are revolting against the neo-liberal state, which is essentially meaningless blah blah blah about democracy and free markets and all that nonsense sitting atop a neo-fascist identity politics the main function of which is the justify the existence of a national-security state apparatus, which takes more or less directly oppressive forms in different places. in the u.s. of a., a fake issue of "balanced budgets" is taken on by the republicans in the house through cuts that do not touch a single military program, they do not reduce the unbelievable waste of resources that have gone down the toilet of the surveillance and paranoia system:

Top Secret America | washingtonpost.com

from the piece that argues tunisia is more free than the united states, above:

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment is on the verge of vanishing, and this attack on the Constitution is being abetted by pusillanimous and corrupt judges and fascistic elements in our national security apparatus. Freedom of peaceable assembly is also being whittled away in the United States of America via devices such as ‘free speech zones;’ the founding generation intended that the whole of the United States be a free speech zone. Many of the protests in the Middle East being cheered on by Americans would be illegal in this country.

Few among the public even seem to care about these assaults on our liberties here. At least the youth of the Middle East can generate a little passion over censorship and unreasonable surveillance. Makes an old Madisonian tear up a little.

it is of no consequence what you find "problematic" ace.
you don't read what's posted to the thread.
you don't know what you're talking about.
it's obvious.

and as for this bit of uninformed, sanctimonious idiocy:

Quote:

A young woman in the ME can be raped and then murdered by her own family in many parts of the ME with no justice (and they are not even fighting for any rights for the young woman in this revolution), and you find that comparable to...what that "conservatives" are doing in the country? Unbelievable.

why don't you actually read post 379.

aceventura3 · 03-09-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

why don't you actually read post 379.

Late as usual. I put the issue on the table weeks ago and your weak endorsement appears false.

Regarding the rest, do you really want to take this thread in the direction of your il-conceived ideology driven snide comments regarding conservatives in the US? Do you really want your views on those comments challenged? I don't think that you do.

roachboy · 03-09-2011, 01:59 PM

ace...you cannot possibly expect that i take anything you say seriously at this point, can you?

i would welcome a real debate.
you have made it obvious is you are neither capable of it nor interested in it. apparently, that's just not how you roll.
so why bother?

have a nice day.

dlish · 03-17-2011, 11:28 PM

the UN backs a no-fly zone

..about fucking time UN!

you finally grew some balls when you realised that there was going to be a massacre in a few hours, even though the arab league had given you the green light for a no-fly zone days ago.

this should be interesting from here on in. now i wonder which arab nations or people will side with their libyan brethren. not many if any i assume. i presume that the rebels' morale must be back after a number of consecutive defeats over the last few days.

i want to see Ghaddafi gone for good. I'd wipe his arrogant pissy little son out while im at too.

Libyan rebels celebrate UN no-fly zone | News.com.au

Cimarron29414 · 03-18-2011, 05:41 AM

I certainly hope that not a single U.S. warplane flies over Libya. The Arab league can do it. Let their bullets be responsible for the inevitable "civilian" deaths.

Baraka_Guru · 03-18-2011, 06:01 AM

From what I've read, the French and the U.K. are more than willing to do it.

roachboy · 03-18-2011, 06:46 AM

...and gadhafi "declares a cease fire"

except for the continuing to shoot people part.

this is an interesting turn of events, i think. gives the lie to the crazy person thesis about gadhafi....

btw normally i oppose military interventions on principle. but this is an exception.

i am baffled by what took so long....well not really....in significant measure, what took so long was the continuing gift given us by the bush people in iraq and afghanistan.

ASU2003 · 03-18-2011, 07:34 AM

Very well played on Gaddafi's part. I have to give him credit. Instead of decimating all of the big guns that might be used to fire in the air, and taking out the runways/airplanes, they will 'quit' fighting...

Why does it feel like he is like a 5 year old boy beating up on his younger brother and now that their parents caught them, he says he will stop...

The bigger question now is where does this go from here? Will the rebels be able to stay in control and run the eastern part of the country? Will the rebels stop fighting? Will the peaceful protests resume? Will the people who fled the country come back?

Baraka_Guru · 03-18-2011, 09:51 AM

It looks like we Canucks are sending in our CF-18s.

Calling Libyan strife 'intolerable'; PM dispatches fighter jets - The Globe and Mail

dlish · 03-18-2011, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

I certainly hope that not a single U.S. warplane flies over Libya. The Arab league can do it. Let their bullets be responsible for the inevitable "civilian" deaths.

from what ive read, the US has requested that the Jordanians and Omani's do the flying and lend a hand. but like Baraka said, the french and brits are more than willing. the aussies with all their big talking 2 weeks ago now said that they wont be contributing to the effort.

Cimarron29414 · 03-18-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

from what ive read, the US has requested that the Jordanians and Omani's do the flying and lend a hand. but like Baraka said, the french and brits are more than willing. the aussies with all their big talking 2 weeks ago now said that they wont be contributing to the effort.

For all the overly-parsed, meekly-composed resolutions of condemnation that the UN musters through its quagmire of veto threats, it is completely ineffective at actually getting things done. In the mean time, the Libyans real chance at an ouster is gone.

How many times has the UN condemned a dictator's actions and demanded results? In my lifetime? Dozens. And when it comes right down to it, guess who has to be the bad guy every fucking time?

Mark my words, Canada will contribute a dozen jets for a few months. France? Less than that, if any. Britian? Slightly more than Canada. And guess who will end up spending billions enforcing a UN-sanctioned no-fly-zone over Libya for another decade? Sound familiar? And how convenient it will be when, a decade from now, the World forgets exactly WHY those jets are flying over yet another Muslim land.

dlish · 03-18-2011, 11:22 AM

with the potential to tap Libyan oil reserves and win major contracts and beat the europeans to it, i think the US wont be doing this under any kind of duress. lets face it, the US almost always get involved for their own interest, and thats understandable.

with the arab league disowning Muammar, i think his fate has been sealed. The arabs have for a long time wanted to get rid of this looney. Now is their chance. The longer the world waits to take down the regime, the harder it will be. They no longer regard his government as the legitimate government, and he's in political and commercial isolation. I dont think the world can blame the US for this. I see why the US has waited for so long to take a stand, and why they are insistant on the arabs taking a bigger role in Muammars removal. But commercial interests have never stopped the US from going to war, so i dont see this as any different.

will the world remember the US as a scapegoat? personally i dont think so. with the wave of world support against Muammar, its hardly likely. The US may have to mop up after the brits and french, but they can also pic up the pieces and the oil contracts too. Probably the reason why the brits are so trigger-happy right now.

Cimarron29414 · 03-18-2011, 12:24 PM

dlish,

I have to say that a fraction of your post offends me.

It isn't like the US (and Britian) go into these places and STEAL the oil. It is paid for at the market rate. Never once have I seen any evidence that the US gets some some sort of sweetheart deal for "mopping up" these places. Not from Kuwait, not from Iraq. We pay the same price as everyone - except we don't. We pay the market rate plus blood to maintain the supply lines, not only to ourselves but to the rest of the world who doesn't spill their blood. So, rather than excoriating the US for "protecting its commerical interests," perhaps it would be more appropriate to thank the US for protecting Australia's commercial interests when Australia seems unwilling...based on your earlier post.

roachboy · 03-18-2011, 12:46 PM

on the security council vote, this take from the financial times is kinda interesting:

Quote:

Bric abstentions point to bigger UN battle

By Harvey Morris at the United Nations

Published: March 18 2011 16:26 | Last updated: March 18 2011 16:26

If the western powers go to war with Muammer Gaddafi, it will be without the support of one of the key emerging components of the new global architecture – the Brics.

Brazil, Russia, India and China all abstained in Thursday’s UN Security Council vote to mandate military action against the Libyan regime.

Russia and China are permanent members of an institution that reflects the global power structure in the immediate aftermath of the second world war. Brazil and India, presently serving two-year terms, are seeking permanent seats on a reformed council that would more closely reflect the realities of the 21st century.

The Russians and Chinese take a consistent line against what they regard as interference in the internal affairs of UN member states. They could have vetoed resolution 1973 but that would have meant turning their backs on a direct appeal from traditional friends in the Arab League to impose a no-fly zone.

China’s foreign ministry said on Friday that Beijing did not use its veto because of the “concerns and stance of Arab countries and the African Union as well as the special situation in Libya”.

Reservations expressed by India and Brazil at the close of Thursday’s debate indicated an expanded council would strengthen the hand of the non-interventionists and weaken that of the west with its three permanent seats – the US, France and UK.

Manjeev Singh Puri, Indian ambassador, noted: “It is very important that there is full respect for sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity of Libya.”

“It was a clear signal to the international community that they will not be the west’s lapdogs,” said Carne Ross, who heads the New York-based Independent Diplomat consultancy. “And there was certainly an element of posturing for permanent seats.”

He doubted there was any active collusion among the Brics on how to vote but said council dynamics reflected an element of “follow my leader”. “If China and Russia had voted in favour, it’s very unlikely India and Brazil would have abstained.”

According to Fyodor Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs: “That was the best solution for all Bric countries – not to disturb relations with the west, but to distance themselves from responsibility.”

Brazil, which is non-interventionist at heart, has long believed in the seductive power of its rainbow diplomacy, which it claims can open doors and broker peace deals that other countries cannot.

Brazil has a professional diplomatic corps that is long hardened in trade negotiations, but despite an extensive diplomatic network it remains a newcomer to global security concerns and lacks the foreign policy experience and think-tank framework of some of its Bric peers, particularly Russia.

Jorge Castañeda, political scientist and former Mexican foreign minister, wrote in Foreign Affairs earlier this year: “It is the traditional powers in the west that will determine the international response to this [Middle East] crisis – not because they are favoured by global institutions, but because their word is backed by military and diplomatic weight. In contrast, the world's rising economies lack the ability – and the values – to project their power on the world stage.”

Thursday’s vote was a close-run thing. Germany, another aspirant to permanent membership, also abstained but that almost certainly had more to do with domestic resistance to the use of military force.

The outcome is unlikely to deter western leaders from paying at least lip service to an expansion of the security council.

President Barack Obama might well express US support for Brazil’s elevation to permanent status when he visits the country at the weekend. Western leaders, however, know that wrangling over the format for expansion, and indeed competition among rival aspirants, is likely to stymie reform for many years to come.

Additional reporting by Neil Buckley, John Paul Rathbone and Jamil Anderli

FT.com / Emerging Markets - Bric abstentions point to bigger UN battle

i don't get the whining:
o-poor-united-of-states!
we give and give and give and nobody appreciates us
ALAS!

fact is that the us imports oil from canada, mexico, saudi arabia and venezuela in that order. us policy about oil has been imperial from the outset--about controlling supplies politically rather than getting sweetheart deals economically. realpolitik. check out michael klare's book resource wars for a good (if a little outdated in 2011) history of the policy logic and how it developed.

libya could well be the first military action that's post-imperial for the united states---another step forward in the fading of empire. the refiguring of the security council is interesting in this regard.

it took a l o n g time for the administration to decide to back some kind of action at the international level, during which time a whole lot of people ended up dead in libya.

when there is an action, it will simply not be the case that the united states is manfully at the lead of it. the us will be part of a broader coalition. a lot of the hardware will come from france and england. they have a more direct economic stake (oil) in the outcome (oil).....this isn't to say the us won't do anything---but thanks to neo-conservative realpolitik and its surreal consequences, the us simply is not in a position to run this show. three wars at once is many.

i expect that what the new situation is will clarify in the next couple days. something is definitely about to happen.

ASU2003 · 03-18-2011, 03:00 PM

I also think that we didn't want another repeat of Sudan, Rwanda, Congo, and Somalia happening in Africa with mass genocide...

I wonder if we have an exit strategy...

Charlatan · 03-18-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

dlish,

I have to say that a fraction of your post offends me.

It isn't like the US (and Britian) go into these places and STEAL the oil. It is paid for at the market rate. Never once have I seen any evidence that the US gets some some sort of sweetheart deal for "mopping up" these places. Not from Kuwait, not from Iraq. We pay the same price as everyone - except we don't. We pay the market rate plus blood to maintain the supply lines, not only to ourselves but to the rest of the world who doesn't spill their blood. So, rather than excoriating the US for "protecting its commerical interests," perhaps it would be more appropriate to thank the US for protecting Australia's commercial interests when Australia seems unwilling...based on your earlier post.

Actually Cimarron, it's not that the US pays a rate the same as everyone else. The point is to ensure that the contracts granted for extraction of the oil go to American companies. It's these companies that will benefit.

The US corporation pays royalty to the nation of Libya to extract the oil. Then Australia will then purchase the oil from that US interest directly.

This isn't neccessarily that case in Libya but that appears to be what the plan was in Iraq, and it was certainly the plan when Roosevelt met with the King of Saudi Arabia back at the end of WWII.

03-03-2011, 02:16 PM	#364 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	At Least 29 Dead in Iraq Protest Crackdowns -- News from Antiwar.com Failure and Frustration Mar Baghdad's Day of Protest - Ben Van Heuvelen - International - The Atlantic interesting information about iraq. the first to confirm what dc's posted above. the second as a description of protests from more ground-level perspectives. ---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ---------- At Least 29 Dead in Iraq Protest Crackdowns -- News from Antiwar.com Failure and Frustration Mar Baghdad's Day of Protest - Ben Van Heuvelen - International - The Atlantic interesting information about iraq. the first to confirm what dc's posted above. the second as a description of protests from more ground-level perspectives. this is an interesting resource: http://www.iraqoilreport.com/politic...andscape-5419/ the link takes you to an analysis of the protests by the same guy as wrote the atlantic piece. it requires either a subscription or a free trial to access the whole thing. i've got to go now, but maybe will free-trial it up later. or if someone else feels so inspired, please do. and give an idea of the contents more generally please. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 03-03-2011 at 02:19 PM..

03-03-2011, 05:00 PM	#365 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Ace is right. It is the economy. The problem, Ace, is that you can't seem to see, or aren't willing to concede, that in order for the economy to be increasingly liberal, the levers of power must be held by those who will take care of the people first and their own corrupt selves second. As has been pointed out, the economy in Iraq isn't neccessarily the problem. It's access to the benefits of that economy that is. Healthy nations are ruled by laws rather than people. And the law needs to be impartially enforced, regardless of who breaks them. Corruption and rule of law may be highfalutin mumbo-jumbo to you, but you've never lived in a place that doesn't have little of the former and plenty of the latter. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-08-2011, 10:09 AM	#369 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	over the weekend, egyptian protestors sacked the state police offices in alexandria, giza and nasr city after word leaked out that the police were shredding and otherwise destroying documents pertaining to their activities, presumably to avoid prosecution (though the motive is not clear exactly). here's an account: Egyptian Chronicles: The night the capital of Hell fell down !! tunisia abolished their secret police altogether: It’s Official: Tunisia Now Freer than the U.S. \| Informed Comment prompting this commentator to say the obvious: tunisia is now more free than is the united states and will remain more free until the national security state is dismantled here. these are not economic issues. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-08-2011, 11:33 AM	#371 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace--you offer nothing remotely like an understanding of anything in the middle east. you offer the same lame warmed-over neoliberal bullshit you always offer. the thread has been about trying to understand things by looking at actual information. you offer nothing. why waste your time with this? go play somewhere else. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-08-2011, 12:23 PM	#373 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	right ace. your simplistic take on things--which can't even get by the self-evident fact that economic relations are not separable from other forms of social relations on the one hand, and that the economy is only one of the issues that's driving the revolts happening in north africa now, and bubbling in the middle east---is a "me" problem. got it. my problem that i can't get with your simple-minded viewpoint. right. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-08-2011, 02:36 PM	#375 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace--what is your problem? OF COURSE THERE IS AN ECONOMIC DIMENSION THAT LAY BEHIND THESE ACTIONS. THERE ARE ALSO POLITICAL DIMENSIONS THAT ARE NOT REDUCIBLE TO THE ECONOMIC. pages and pages into this thread and you continue to repeat the obvious as if somehow or another that's not been taken into account---repeatedly---in the course of the thread. and you insist on a useless frame that sometimes separates the economic from everything else or---worse---reduces absolutely everything to the econmic-----and then because your way of framing the obvious isn't taken at all seriously----and it isnt----you come back and pretend that therefore the economic dimension of these actions is being excluded. and that's in your imagination, that exclusion of economic factors. nowhere else. the exclusion of your way of looking at those factors is absolutely everywhere in this thread. over and over. i don't know what you think you're accomplishing. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 03-08-2011 at 02:45 PM..

03-08-2011, 02:52 PM	#376 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Did RB just use caps?

03-08-2011, 04:42 PM	#378 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	In the not too recent past, Ace has admitted to posting his drivel just to get a rise out of folk. Oh oh oh, roach used caps! Now Ace is sitting with his feet up on the desk chuckling, "Winning!" I'm off to find some links worthy of the serious discussion that this thread has been mostly about. Here's two: http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...etry-of-revolt http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...ward_-vote-now ---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ---------- two more: The Associated Press: Egyptian women's rights protest marred by hecklers http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...nd-petition%29 Last edited by ring; 03-08-2011 at 04:48 PM..

03-09-2011, 12:43 PM	#383 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	yes, it is very problematic. because it's true. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-09-2011, 01:59 PM	#387 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace...you cannot possibly expect that i take anything you say seriously at this point, can you? i would welcome a real debate. you have made it obvious is you are neither capable of it nor interested in it. apparently, that's just not how you roll. so why bother? have a nice day. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-17-2011, 11:28 PM	#388 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	the UN backs a no-fly zone ..about fucking time UN! you finally grew some balls when you realised that there was going to be a massacre in a few hours, even though the arab league had given you the green light for a no-fly zone days ago. this should be interesting from here on in. now i wonder which arab nations or people will side with their libyan brethren. not many if any i assume. i presume that the rebels' morale must be back after a number of consecutive defeats over the last few days. i want to see Ghaddafi gone for good. I'd wipe his arrogant pissy little son out while im at too. Libyan rebels celebrate UN no-fly zone \| News.com.au __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

03-18-2011, 05:41 AM	#389 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	I certainly hope that not a single U.S. warplane flies over Libya. The Arab league can do it. Let their bullets be responsible for the inevitable "civilian" deaths. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

03-18-2011, 06:01 AM	#390 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	From what I've read, the French and the U.K. are more than willing to do it. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-18-2011, 06:46 AM	#391 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	...and gadhafi "declares a cease fire" except for the continuing to shoot people part. this is an interesting turn of events, i think. gives the lie to the crazy person thesis about gadhafi.... btw normally i oppose military interventions on principle. but this is an exception. i am baffled by what took so long....well not really....in significant measure, what took so long was the continuing gift given us by the bush people in iraq and afghanistan. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-18-2011, 07:34 AM	#392 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Very well played on Gaddafi's part. I have to give him credit. Instead of decimating all of the big guns that might be used to fire in the air, and taking out the runways/airplanes, they will 'quit' fighting... Why does it feel like he is like a 5 year old boy beating up on his younger brother and now that their parents caught them, he says he will stop... The bigger question now is where does this go from here? Will the rebels be able to stay in control and run the eastern part of the country? Will the rebels stop fighting? Will the peaceful protests resume? Will the people who fled the country come back?

03-18-2011, 09:51 AM	#393 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	It looks like we Canucks are sending in our CF-18s. Calling Libyan strife 'intolerable'; PM dispatches fighter jets - The Globe and Mail __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-18-2011, 11:22 AM	#396 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	with the potential to tap Libyan oil reserves and win major contracts and beat the europeans to it, i think the US wont be doing this under any kind of duress. lets face it, the US almost always get involved for their own interest, and thats understandable. with the arab league disowning Muammar, i think his fate has been sealed. The arabs have for a long time wanted to get rid of this looney. Now is their chance. The longer the world waits to take down the regime, the harder it will be. They no longer regard his government as the legitimate government, and he's in political and commercial isolation. I dont think the world can blame the US for this. I see why the US has waited for so long to take a stand, and why they are insistant on the arabs taking a bigger role in Muammars removal. But commercial interests have never stopped the US from going to war, so i dont see this as any different. will the world remember the US as a scapegoat? personally i dont think so. with the wave of world support against Muammar, its hardly likely. The US may have to mop up after the brits and french, but they can also pic up the pieces and the oil contracts too. Probably the reason why the brits are so trigger-happy right now. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

03-18-2011, 12:24 PM	#397 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	dlish, I have to say that a fraction of your post offends me. It isn't like the US (and Britian) go into these places and STEAL the oil. It is paid for at the market rate. Never once have I seen any evidence that the US gets some some sort of sweetheart deal for "mopping up" these places. Not from Kuwait, not from Iraq. We pay the same price as everyone - except we don't. We pay the market rate plus blood to maintain the supply lines, not only to ourselves but to the rest of the world who doesn't spill their blood. So, rather than excoriating the US for "protecting its commerical interests," perhaps it would be more appropriate to thank the US for protecting Australia's commercial interests when Australia seems unwilling...based on your earlier post. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

03-18-2011, 03:00 PM	#399 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I also think that we didn't want another repeat of Sudan, Rwanda, Congo, and Somalia happening in Africa with mass genocide... I wonder if we have an exit strategy...