Revolution in Tunisia & Egypt, Protests in Libya, Bahrain, Oman & Yemen - Page 7 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

roachboy · 02-16-2011, 09:01 AM

this from the guardian live blog today:

Quote:

3.30pm – Egypt:

My colleague Mark Tran writes about a fact sheet the US embassy in London has just sent out "to show it's on the side of the angels", giving a breakdown of US funding to promote "a vibrant civil society in Egypt" and in the Middle East.

Mark Tran

The US says since 2006, it has provided approximately $210m (£131m) to support democracy activities in Egypt:

"In FY [financial year] 2010, we more than doubled our support to civil society activities (from $9.5m to $25m). Our FY 2011 request maintains this strong support ($21m). We also significantly increased support for the Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI) in FY 2011 to support civil society and democratic reform across the Middle East. The US government has increased its direct support for indigenous Egyptian organisations. In FY 2010, Egyptian NGOs received $14m in US assistance, significantly above the $9m provided in FY 2009 and $8.5m in FY 2008. These funds went to support core civil society activities such as rights education, as well as democracy and building civil society capacity to expand the impact of Egypt's active citizens' groups."

To put this into context, however, US military aid for Egypt runs at $1.3bn a year. On the subject of US aid to Egypt, here is an article from the Carnegie of Endowment in Washington arguing why Egyptians are unlikely to appreciate US economic aid.

It says: "The current focus on helping businessmen, particularly powerful ones, and on US-chosen infrastructure projects that create few permanent job opportunities will keep USAID unpopular in Egypt, especially in light of the aid's small size."

Middle East protests - live updates | News | guardian.co.uk

here's the context referred to above, a critique of the structure of us aid to egypt from 2009 via the carnegie endowment for intl peace:

Quote:

U.S. Aid to Egypt: The Current Situation and Future Prospects
Ahmad Al-Sayed El-Naggar Web Commentary, June 2009

A question is always raised in conversations with USAID officials: Why don’t Egyptians notice the role of American aid to their country? The simple answer is that U.S. economic aid to Egypt, which amounted to $455 million in 2007, translated to only $6 per capita,[1] compared to $40.8 per capita in Jordan for the same year. Yet Jordan’s per capita income, $2,850 in 2007, is 170 percent that of Egypt.

With U.S. economic aid to Egypt cut to $200 million for 2009, the per capita share is a measly $2.60 in a country with an average gross domestic income (GDP) per capita at current prices of about $1,697 in 2007 and $2,184 in 2008 according to the World Development Report of 2009—the sharp increase is partially attributed to the high inflation rate of 11.8 percent in 2008. If calculated using Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) that adjusts for the relative purchasing power difference between the Egyptian pound and the dollar, the average per capita income in Egypt was $5,352 in 2007 and $5,400 in 2008. Therefore, in per capita terms, U.S. economic aid to Egypt is barely a drop in the bucket.

Egypt’s most critical needs include targeting aid to help create permanent jobs to enable citizens to earn a living with dignity, as well as providing direct assistance to the most impoverished citizens in the fight against poverty.

The way in which the already limited aid is utilized further marginalizes its impact. The aid does not meet or even take into consideration Egyptians’ most pressing needs, focusing instead on programs valued for strict ideological reasons. Egypt’s most critical needs include targeting aid to help create permanent jobs to enable citizens to earn a living with dignity, as well as providing direct assistance to the most impoverished citizens in the fight against poverty. In addition to spreading poverty at an alarming rate, the so-called economic reforms recommended by the United States and the IMF have caused an unprecedented surge in unemployment and increased income inequality over the past three decades. According to official data, 2.4 million Egyptians are currently unemployed, but the real number could be more than 8 million, according to independent estimates. The unemployed are deprived of a dignified livelihood and become a burden on their families. This in turn increases family poverty, contributing to the disintegration of what historically has been a remarkably cohesive social unit.

In more than one interview with USAID representatives and consultants, I was asked about the types of projects that could make USAID more popular in Egypt. I suggested that Egypt’s northern coast be swept clear of mines and its land reclaimed at the relatively low cost of less than a billion dollars. This would add hundreds of thousands of acres of arable land that could be distributed among landless farmers and agricultural school graduates, enabling them to earn a living with dignity and reducing their dependence on their families; this would also reduce poverty rates in Egypt. I also suggested that an advisory body of experts be assembled from across the political spectrum to help the poor start small- and micro-enterprises, which would create jobs for them and others. This body would provide guidance to prospective entrepreneurs and guide them toward existing opportunities. These projects would depend primarily on locally available materials and aim to satisfy the communities’ need for various goods that can be produced locally and competitively. The body of experts would also assist entrepreneurs in obtaining affordable financing, help them meet quality standards that would allow their products to be marketed locally and internationally, and link them to large commercial chains in Egypt and abroad to ensure that their products have a permanent market.

The current focus on helping businessmen, particularly powerful ones, and on U.S.-chosen infrastructure projects that create few permanent job opportunities will keep USAID unpopular in Egypt, especially in light of the aid’s small size.

If USAID were to move in this direction, its influence could become much more profound. The current focus on helping businessmen, particularly powerful ones, and on U.S.-chosen infrastructure projects that create few permanent job opportunities will keep USAID unpopular in Egypt, especially in light of the aid’s small size.

As for U.S. security and military aid to Egypt, which is about $1.3 billion annually, it does not aim to strengthen Egyptian military power against any external threat, as this would be contrary to the declared U.S. objective of ensuring Israeli security and maintaining Israeli military supremacy over its Arab neighbors, including Egypt. Instead, this aid is devoted mainly to strengthening the regime’s domestic security and its ability to confront popular movements. This hardly enhances USAID’s popularity among the Egyptian people or educated elites. The unflinching American support for Israel, and Washington’s failure to reach a comprehensive political settlement even on its own conditions of ensuring Israel’s security within the 1967 borders, make Egyptians and other neighboring Arabs skeptical of political settlements that lead nowhere. It also leads them to question the value of the limited U.S. aid tied to the peace treaty with Israel, which is used to improve America’s image in the media and cover up the U.S. bias toward Israel at the expense of Arab rights.

Finally, aid given to Egypt provides the United States with political, strategic, and sometimes economic benefits that far exceed the value of what Egypt has received. The conditions tied to U.S. aid ensure that much of the money returns to the United States, whether in the form of the imported American products, work contracts that go to American companies at less competitive prices than Egypt could have obtained had the bidding been open to international companies, or the salaries of USAID experts. Most important of all, this aid consolidated a gross imbalance in trade relations between Egypt and the U.S. During the 1983–2007 period, Egypt’s total accumulated trade deficit with the United States was $45.1 billion, according to the IMF Trade Statistics Trends Yearbook. This sum is far greater than the total size of American economic aid to Egypt to date. The Egyptian trade deficit with the United States is closely related to this assistance, making Egypt one of the few countries with which the United States has a trade surplus, counter to its overall trend of an $820.6 billion foreign trade deficit in 2008.

Ahmad El-Naggar is editor-in-chief of the Economic Strategy Trends Report published by the Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies.
[1] Egypt’s population is estimated to be around 75 million (World Bank, 2007).

U.S. Aid to Egypt: The Current Situation and Future Prospects - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

aceventura3 · 02-16-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

nothing makes any sense without an idea of the complexity of recent history. there is no separation between economic and political spaces; each impacts upon the other.

Here is how you or anyone can make sense of what is happening in Egypt, it is like a daily score sheet. Watch the flow of capital in capital markets.

Quote:

The Egyptian Exchange, shut since Jan. 27 amid anti-government protests, will stay closed into next week and honor transactions that sent the EGX 100 Index tumbling on the last trading day, Al Arabiya television said.

Exchange officials, confronted by investors angry about stock losses, said yesterday they would weigh annulling trades that led the EGX 100 down 14 percent, the biggest one-day drop in more than two years. Chairman Khaled Seyam ruled out such a move, saying it would be illegal, Al Arabiya reported today.

The Market Vectors Egypt Index ETF in the U.S. rose since the Cairo exchange closed as President Hosni Mubarak bowed to protesters seeking his resignation last week and ceded power to the military after 30 years in office. Egyptian shares in London have since reversed earlier gains. Seyam and Hisham Turk, a spokesman for the bourse, didn’t answer calls and text messages to their mobile phones today.

“There are people waiting to invest as soon as the market opens,” Sven Richter, managing director and head of frontier markets at Renaissance Asset Managers in London, which oversees more than $2 billion, including investments in Egypt, said in an interview yesterday. “I would prefer those trades stayed in place and that they opened the stock exchange as soon as possible.”

Individual equity holders, who accounted for 48 percent of all trading on the Egyptian Exchange last year, jammed into a meeting in Cairo with bourse Vice Chairman Mohamed Farid Saleh yesterday, demanding changes in regulation and management before the market resumes operations. The exchange has delayed opening at least three times. Al Arabiya reported today it won’t resume operations as planned on Feb. 20.
Bill Auction

Egypt’s central bank today moved the deadline for some of its Treasury bill auctions as banks are closed.

The government will auction 5.5 billion Egyptian pounds ($936 million) in 182- and 364-day bills on Feb. 21, according to the Ministry of Finance’s website. The central bank had previously said that the auctions for these bills would be carried out tomorrow. Auctions of 91- and 273-day bills will be held as scheduled on Feb. 20 in a bid to raise 4.5 billion pounds, the ministry said.

The Egyptian Exchange had outlined rules yesterday for opening on Feb. 20. The bourse planned to halt trading for 30 minutes should the EGX 100 Index, which includes all stocks in the benchmark EGX 30 Index, rise or fall more than 5 percent, according to Turk. The exchange will shut for the day if the gauge moves more than 10 percent, he said. The EGX 100 closed at an eight-month low of 884.79 on Jan. 27 on concern protests against Mubarak’s rule would cripple economic growth.
Investor Demands

James Angel, associate professor of finance at McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University in Washington, said he’s never heard of an exchange invalidating three-week-old trades.

U.S. exchanges canceled about 20,800 trades on May 6, when a sale of futures contracts set off a chain of selling that bled into stocks and sent the Dow Jones Industrial Average down as much as 9.2 percent, according to an account of the day by federal regulators. The annulled transactions amount to a fraction of the volume on a typical trading day. Shares of Citigroup Inc., one of the most-traded securities on U.S. bourses, changed hands at least 177,000 times yesterday, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

Ezz Steel

At yesterday’s meeting in Cairo, investors argued with exchange officials, some demanding the trading suspension continue and others asking that the market open conditionally. They sought the suspension of trading of 13 companies associated with Mubarak’s regime, including Cairo-based Ezz Steel, Egypt’s biggest producer of the metal, and suggested more regulation to prevent insider trading and improve disclosure. They also called for new management at the bourse and securities regulator, the Egyptian Financial Services Authority.

In addition to Ezz Steel, investors are demanding the suspension of Ezz Aldekhela Steel Co. and Ezz Ceramics & Porcelain Tiles Co., all of which are affiliated with Ahmed Ezz, a member of Mubarak’s former ruling party who is under investigation for alleged corruption by the country’s public prosecutor.

“The bourse is a black box that still hasn’t been opened,” said Ashraf Khairy, who added he holds 2.4 million Egyptian pounds in stocks and is 400,000 pounds in debt. “We cannot trust those who presided over the corruption to implement reforms.”

GDRs Drop

The Market Vectors Egypt Index ETF, a U.S.-listed exchange- traded fund that holds Egyptian shares, has climbed 13 percent since Jan. 27. The fund, which changes hands throughout the day like a stock, rose 0.5 percent today.

Global depositary receipts of Orascom Construction Industries, the Egypt’s biggest publicly traded builder, lost 5 percent to $37.52 at 2:46 p.m. in London and are down 0.3 percent since Jan. 27. GDRs of Commercial International Bank Egypt SAE, the country’s biggest publicly traded bank, slid 4.6 percent to $6, bringing the loss since Jan. 27 to 4.2 percent. EFG-Hermes Holding SAE, the nation’s biggest publicly traded investment bank, fell 6.7 percent to $8.30 and is down 7.6 percent since the Egyptian bourse closed.

The yield on Egypt’s benchmark dollar bonds due in 2020 was little changed at 6.57 percent, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Five-year credit-default swaps on the nation’s debt rose 8 basis points to 345 from the London close. That is down from 432.48 on Jan. 28, the day after the exchange closed. The contracts pay the buyer face value in exchange for the underlying securities or the cash equivalent should a government or company fail to adhere to its debt agreements.

EFG-Hermes Holding reduced its recommendation on six Egyptian companies yesterday, including Ezz Steel, on concern earnings may be hurt by the political changes.
‘Hurting Investors’

Ezz, whose shares tumbled 19 percent to 15.93 pounds in the week ended Jan. 27, was lowered to “sell” at EFG with a 12- month price estimate of 13.9 pounds and Cairo-based Egyptian Resorts Co., a developer, was cut to “sell” with a price estimate of 1.4 pounds. Ghabbour Auto, Credit Agricole Egypt SAE, National Societe Generale Bank SAE and Paints & Chemical Industry Co. also had their recommendations reduced.

“The suspension is hurting investors more than it’s helping them, the bourse needs to face the reopening problem in order to get on with business,” said Mohsin Adel, managing director at Cairo-based Pioneer Funds, where he helps oversee 500 million Egyptian pounds.

Egypt Stock Exchange Rules Out Annulling Transactions, Will Remain Closed - Bloomberg

dc_dux · 02-16-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

You confuse me, are you of the belief that people are protesting for the concept of democracy or something at a more base level like simply being able to feed their families, have a job, earn a living, have a better future?

Have you not read the articles I cited? Have you thought about my question regarding the historical causes of revolutions on this planet? The causes of revolutions are normally pretty simple and in my study of history they are almost always due to some form of economic opportunity.

What is your source? to me it seems that the Western media romanticizes over certain concepts like those you present above. I again ask what is different this time as compared to a year ago, five years ago, 25 years ago? I say the severity of food inflation and the global economic slow down.

ace...i am simply suggesting that it is not that black and white....and neither were most revolutions.

Sure, economic issues are part of the mix, but does not tell the full picture.

Having a good job and food on the table is not the only measure of dignity and quality of life for which people fight. Oppression through police brutality, government corruption and the lack of a role in the political process are equally meaningful.

Read the words of those involved, not the western media romanticizing:

Quote:

The Khaled Saeed Facebook group, which was formed to commemorate 28-year-old who died at the hands of Egyptian police, had taken the initiative to declare 25 January a day of Egyptian revolt to condemn police brutality....

...Although diverse in vision, the coalition's groups have long agreed on basic demands, which they believe will lead to a more democratic Egypt, and have worked cooperatively in recent years to push for these common goals. The groups' common requests have included an end to police brutality, the abolition of emergency law, free and fair elections, constitutional changes and an end to Mubarak's thirty-year rule.

Egypt revolution youth form national coalition - Politics - Egypt - Ahram Online

roachboy · 02-16-2011, 09:15 AM

your aversion to complexity makes of you a dull boy, ace.

i have a friend who's a trader who argues similar things after 5 or 6 beverages---"watch their feet" he says. he calls me comade. i call him my favorite reactionary. when we push off that har-de-har stuff, it's possible to have conversations about things in which, to both our surprise, we often actually agree about some things because working with a common data set is like that.

you have set up some arbitrary division between economics and politics.
you have done it in a way that seems almost set up to grind discussion to a halt.
you pretend that you're refuting some claim i've made, when reality is that i've said over and over there's nothing to the split you're arguing for outside your simplifying imagination.

yet you continue.

the thread is about the revolts that are happening across the region and not about aceventura's inability to think in terms of complexity.

=====

speaking of which, here is an interesting interview (in french, sadly) about the situation in algeria at the moment.

http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01012...soit-trop-fort

the woman being interviewed is a researcher at the cnrs who was in oran last week when the protests happened in algiers. she talks about how difficult it is to get a sense of what "the situation in algeria" really is, that what it appears to be varies by geography and social group/community...so its not one thing, "the situation"---she talks about the presence of the kabyle population and its political mobilization, which has had the effect of making protest into "a kabyle thing" in some areas.

but mostly it's about the divergent history of algeria, which had open elections in 1988 in which the fis (islamic salvation front) won---the result of that was almost a decade of civil war.

her main point is that things are building---something is going on---and a lot of younger folk (from her perspective of course, but she says as much) are interested in leaving the country on account of it because the experience of civil war raises the possibility that the price to be paid for revolt may be too high.

it's interesting, i think.

there's more in the interview...

Cimarron29414 · 02-16-2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

My Tea Party participation is directly related to my ability to earn a living and keep more of what I work for. It is not at all complicated, and has nothing to do with choice A.

I'm going to make this point, and then back off of this line. You gave two, and only two options:

A) an enigmatic political concept
b) the ability to feed your family

There was no option c) ability to earn a living and keep more of what I work for.

Clearly, you will still be able to feed your family, even if Obama et. al. get everything they want. You knew that was never in question. We were revolting against a violation of our principles. And I think we can all agree that the tea party did not exactly have laser political focus when we started attending rallies, it was quite enigmatic.

Look, I hate to spring your own trap on you, I really do. It's just difficult to accept a two item list of reasons for political revolt when your yourself immediately created a 3rd upon query. Isn't that proof that it isn't as simple as just those two?

aceventura3 · 02-16-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace...i am simply suggesting that it is not that black and white....and neither were most revolutions.

If that is the case we disagree. I suggest that some people see value in making what is simple appear overly complicated. There are reasons that well fed Phd. level educated people never lead "revolutions", because they are well fed and they don't understand what motivates the masses.

Quote:

Sure, economic issues are part of the mix, but does not tell the full picture.

O.k. that is a safe statement that I can not disagree with, but my stand is that - like when people look at the Mona Lisa, they don't care too much about the bridge in the lower right corner in the background of the picture, it is all about the girl or boy depending on who you believe - and "revolution" is about economics.

Quote:

Having a good job and food on the table is not the only measure of dignity and quality of life for which people fight. Oppression through police brutality, government corruption and the lack of a role in the political process are equally meaningful.

You used the word "equally", that is where you are wrong in my view. Go back and look at Maslow:

Quote:

Read the words of those involved, not the western media romanticizing:

What is real is more important than words, anyone's words.

roachboy · 02-16-2011, 01:39 PM

just in case it's of interest what is happening in actual multi-dimensional reality and not merely in that simple-minded quadrant where ace here is able to take a regional revolution and turn it into a reason to talk about himself and his new-found vulgar marxist theory of revolution, this goes to the guardian live blog for the day:

Middle East protests - live updates | News | guardian.co.uk

stuff happening in libya, agitation in morocco, bahrain, yemen, iran and egypt.

al jazeera coverage of bahrian:

Live Blog - Bahrain | Al Jazeera Blogs

a quite interesting post about the complexity in algeria:

Additional notes on the Algerian situation The Moor Next Door

the ny times coverage is heavier on iran:

Latest Updates on Middle East Protests - NYTimes.com

dc_dux · 02-16-2011, 01:42 PM

I get it, ace.

You will just ignore what the April 6 Movement leaders said when they called for the people to protest against, and condemn, police brutality or what the Coalition of the Revolution's Youth demanded- the end of emergency laws and for free and fair elections....

You and your little chart know better than what is the hearts and minds of the people on the streets of Cairo.

Or Bahrain and what the Bahrain Youth for Freedom movement is demanding in that country:

We want a genuine political life in which the people alone are the source of powers and legislation.

We want a constitution drawn up by the people, and agreed upon, which is the arbitrator and judge in the relationship of the ruler to the ruled.

We want genuine and fair elections based on fair foundations and the distribution of constituencies in which the vote of every individual Bahraini is equal.

We want genuine representation, without the accusation of treason whenever we go out to demand our rights.

We want a Council of Representatives that reflects the composition of the Bahraini people, without the majority being a minority and the minority a majority.

We want a government that is elected, based on people’s competencies rather than “loyalties”.

We want to fight corruption and stop the plundering of resources, and achieve a fair distribution of wealth.

We want to stop nepotism, and to prevent recruitment according to affiliation, and to open all sectors, especially the military, to all people.

We want an end to indiscriminate political naturalisation, which has increased the burden on services and oppressed people.

We want true freedom, without a law against “terrorism” and “gatherings”.

We want true media freedom, and the door to be opened for everyone to express their opinions freely and without fear.

We want security in villages and towns, and the release of political prisoners and the reform of prisons, and the end of oppression, torture and intimidation.

We want genuine solutions to the problems of unemployment, housing, education, and health.

We want the police to “serve the people”, and we want the army to be of the people.

This is truly what we want; we do not want to overthrow the regime, as many imagine, and we do not want to gain control of the government, we do not want chairs and seats here or there. We want to be a people living with dignity and rights.

bint battuta in bahrain: february 14

But you know what is more important than their words....."its the economy, stupid protesters."

roachboy · 02-16-2011, 01:42 PM

you'll likely ignore what the people who are agitating for change in morocco are saying too, ace.

YouTube - Morocco campaign #feb20 #morocco

no doubt these people are not in contact with reality quite the way you are.
they must all be ph.d.s.

(sorry, but i can't seem to get the version with the english subtitles to embed here. dont know why quite)

aceventura3 · 02-16-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

I'm going to make this point, and then back off of this line. You gave two, and only two options:

A) an enigmatic political concept
b) the ability to feed your family

There was no option c) ability to earn a living and keep more of what I work for.

Clearly, you will still be able to feed your family, even if Obama et. al. get everything they want. You knew that was never in question. We were revolting against a violation of our principles. And I think we can all agree that the tea party did not exactly have laser political focus when we started attending rallies, it was quite enigmatic.

Look, I hate to spring your own trap on you, I really do. It's just difficult to accept a two item list of reasons for political revolt when your yourself immediately created a 3rd upon query. Isn't that proof that it isn't as simple as just those two?

The point is that people do not revolt over enigmatic concepts like "democracy", they revolt over matters that are simple and easily defined.

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

the thread is about the revolts that are happening across the region and not about aceventura's inability to think in terms of complexity.

I have given support for my point of view - it is not about me.

---------- Post added at 10:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I get it, ace.

You will just ignore what the April 6 Movement leaders said when they called for the people to protest against, and condemn, police brutality or what the Coalition of the Revolution's Youth demanded- the end of emergency laws and for free and fair elections....

You and your little chart know better than what is the hearts and minds of the people on the streets of Cairo.

You do not get it and I am not ignoring anything. There is complexity and there is "complexity". E=MC2 is complex, but simple. Real intellect is about being able to simplify concepts and issues that on the surface appear "complex" but are not. This philosophical bit of information appears to be beyond comprehension here. So, you can help Egyptian's with the chant:

Quote:

We want an end to indiscriminate political naturalisation, which has increased the burden on services and oppressed people.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/newrepl...#ixzz1EAAT0bAm

Whatever the hell that means.

dc_dux · 02-16-2011, 03:41 PM

ace....take the blinders off, put away the psycho-babble and listen, really listen (or read) what the protesters on the streets of Egypt, Algeria, Bahrain, Yemen, etc. are saying.

When you ignore it or mock it, I would describe it as a form of American (or conservative) arrogance, suggesting that you know the reasons behind these uprisings better than those on the streets of these countries.

Charlatan · 02-16-2011, 04:14 PM

Interesting. All revolutions are about:

A) an enigmatic political concept
b) the ability to feed your family

So where does, "No taxation without representation" fit into that scheme? Were America's founders having trouble feeding their families? How about the Canadian rebellions that sought to break the family compact's influence on the political realm of Upper and Lower Canada? (I know it's a bit of a stretch to expect your understanding of Canadian history... so I'll help you... they weren't starving).

If you insist on boiling these current protests down to some simple slogan, I would suggest it is more about, "Egyptians taking control of Egypt" than anything else. This encompasses, not only the economic realm but the political levers of power that create those opportunities and allow a nation's forward motion through the collective will of the people, rather than the drive of an individual or some oligarchy. In other words, it's not *just* the economy stupid.

Seaver · 02-16-2011, 04:58 PM

Quote:

The point is that people do not revolt over enigmatic concepts like "democracy", they revolt over matters that are simple and easily defined.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1EAnNAAzN

Wrong. There is a higher percentage of doctors, lawyers, and engineers protesting than the lower class. If it was a simple "can't feed my family" the technocrats would be silent. Please do your research on the country before proclaiming what the protesters are protesting.

Quote:

You do not get it and I am not ignoring anything. There is complexity and there is "complexity". E=MC2 is complex, but simple. Real intellect is about being able to simplify concepts and issues that on the surface appear "complex" but are not. This philosophical bit of information appears to be beyond comprehension here. So, you can help Egyptian's with the chant:

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1EAniZNUR

No real intellect is being able to comprehend the entire picture, not simply cutting and pasting only the parts that agree with your theory.

dlish · 02-16-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

The point is that people do not revolt over enigmatic concepts like "democracy", they revolt over matters that are simple and easily defined.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Whatever the hell that means.

you obviously have no idea on the way bahrain is run nor do you have any idea on the tensions that run between the ruling sunni minority and the shia majority. but of course, this issue is simply a matter of economics and easily defined.

Quote:

IHRC - Political Naturalization in Bahrain: Various Violations of Citizens and Foreign Workers Rights
Political Naturalization in Bahrain: Various Violations of Citizens and Foreign Workers Rights

01 September 2006

Causes of Worry, Categorizing the Naturalized and General Recommendations

REF: 060090302

The Bahrain Centre for Human Rights (BCHR) is concerned in regards to the progression of the political naturalization. Members of the Representative Council revealed that the authorities might have granted extraordinary citizenships to almost 10 thousand residents, both Asians and Arabs. This number is added to approximately 30 thousand who might have been extraordinarily granted citizenship during the last 10 years [1]. It is also believed that there are political motives behind the extraordinary naturalization campaigns and especially that they are not carried out openly and are based on racial and sectarian basis, and their timing might be related to the elections which will take place in Bahrain in a few months time.

The BCHR's causes of worry are listed in the following matters:

1. Discrimination and inequality: Naturalization is carried out selectively based on tribal or sectarian origin and not based on the equal right of foreigners in getting the citizenship. [2] Article (6) of the Bahraini citizenship law of 1963 permits granting citizenship with conditions; among them is that the applicant must have residing in Bahrain for 15 years if the applicant is an Arab and 25 years for non-Arabs. However, the basic drawback is in the way the law is enforced: the law does not impose on the authorities to grant the citizenship automatically to those that the law is applicable to, which gives a free scope to discrimination and favouritism in granting the citizenship based on unwritten laws and according to the authority?s tendency and mood, a major problem considering the lack of transparency and accountability.

2. Abuse of power that is granted exceptionally: A large percent of those that have been granted the citizenship have not fulfilled the regular legal requisites, especially the period of residence, therefore they are granted the citizenship by using an extraordinary authority which the law grants to the king in granting citizenship.

3. Manipulating the law and the procedures: While many applications that fulfil the requirements were frozen for many years claiming that the requester was not able to prove cancelling his/her original citizenship, in the political naturalization that procedure is either overstepped or by-passed. In addition, the laws of the countries of origin are violated since they do not permit dual?citizenship like India and Saudi Arabia. Whilst the governments of some of those countries overlook the fact that their citizens have obtained the Bahraini citizenship, the naturalized Syrians for example tackle paying fines to their country?s authorities for not carrying out the military service.

4. Falsifying information: In order to issue a citizenship and identity documents for the naturalized who do not originally live in Bahrain, for example like the Saudi Arabians, or to register those naturalized in certain areas for electoral purposes, the authority?s employees enter fake addresses by confirming addresses in uninhabited areas such as Hawar Islands or by using addresses of houses that are inhabited by other people.

5. Deprivation of citizenship: Although the citizenship is granted extraordinarily to ones who have not fulfilled the criteria of residence and who already hold citizenships of their original countries, hundreds of people who are entitled to it are deprived from it either due to their ethnic origin or their sectarian background even though they do not have any other citizenship [3]. There still are hundreds of families who suffer from psychological, economic and social effects resulting from deprivation of citizenship, though all the required criteria for citizenship were met. The majority of these families are from Persian origins from both the Sunni and Shi?a sect. Article 15 from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights stipulates that ?everyone has the right to a nationality?. Moreover, children who come from a Bahraini mother are deprived from the Bahraini citizenship because of their father?s different nationality, although Bahrain is a member in The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) which states in article 9 that ?states parties shall grant women equal rights with men with respect to the nationality of their children.? The case of Al-Satrawi?s family emerges as an outrageous example of depriving Bahraini families of their right to citizenship and dispersing them as refugees in different countries [4].

6. Violating economic and social rights of citizens and foreign workers: Bahrain suffers from an escalating unemployment rate, low wages and a housing shortage. A large percent of citizens and foreigners suffer from this dilemma [5]. The government, instead of making economic reforms that include organizing foreign workers? import and improving the status of wages and work circumstances for citizens and foreigners in general, the authority, and for political purposes, turns towards settling foreigners in large numbers which adds to the deterioration of living standards and residential conditions as well as increasing social problems. Naturalizing foreign workers does not necessarily mean guaranteeing their rights and improving their living standards, it rather robs them from some privileges such as residential and emigration allowances. The Bahraini authorities refrain from joining the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families and justifies this by claiming that settling foreigners jeopardizes the demographic makeup in Bahrain, however we find that the government is currently granting citizenship extraordinarily to a large number of them, based on political purposes and benefits that will be reaped.

7. Violating political rights: manipulating elections to reinforce supremacy and tyranny: The timing of the naturalization?s process, its degree and the way the beneficiary are chosen, affects the elections directly, which prejudices the rights of the people and raises racial and sectarian discord and that is to the advantage of the authority?s dominance over the state?s institutions. The wide-ranging naturalization process that the authority is performing is associated with changing the law that is related to political rights, so as to granting the naturalized the right to nominate and elect instantly instead of waiting 10 years.

8. Using the foreigners as mercenaries and granting them privileges [6]: The government recruits workers from other countries of a certain ethnic and sectarian background to work in security and military apparatuses. The government favours them over regular citizens in work privileges and services, and uses them in suppression apparatuses, like the Special Security Force, which is widely accused of using excessive force against citizens in peaceful gatherings. It also provides them with closed residence compounds and extraordinarily grants them citizenships in large numbers.

9. Arising racial and sectarian tension and hatred towards foreigners (xenophobia): Due to racial and sectarian discrimination in granting the Bahraini citizenship, and the political and economic prejudice resulting from the authority?s aforementioned policies, the way is paved for racial and sectarian tension on both the political and social level, which causes inflexibility and hatred towards foreigners in general, which does not exclude those who obtained the citizenship in a normal way.

10. Lack of transparency: Even though the authority denies the existence of selective naturalization for political aims, it refuses to reveal the number of people that have been naturalized, their identities and the countries they came from.

11. Lack of monitoring and accountability: The government prevented the Council of Representatives from investigating the naturalization policies and practices, and that was done through a decree it had issued which prevents the Council from questioning the government on matters preceding its formation. The representatives and political societies as well as institutions of the civil society are tentative and hesitant in discussing the political naturalization in a serious and sincere way as it might wrong the countries king?s actions, which exposes them to the authority's resentment and perhaps severe legal pursuing.

roachboy · 02-17-2011, 04:38 AM

an interesting and useful essay by olivier roy that looks at tunisia and egypt as "post-islamicist revolutions"....an excerpt:

Quote:

What we see are people whose demands are focused mainly on dignity, on “respect” – a motto that emerged in Algeria in the late 1990s. Protestors are making demands in the name of universal human values. But what is important is that today people are demanding democracy as a right that is no longer something imported from the West. That is what makes it so crucially different from what the Bush administration promoted as democracy in 2003, which was unacceptable because it lacked any political legitimacy in the region, and instead was associated with a U.S. military intervention. However paradoxical it sounds, the fact is that the weakened position of the U.S. In the Middle East and the pragmatic posture of the Obama administration today have opened the way for an indigenous demand for democracy to emerge and take hold with its own legitimacy.

the piece is worth a read:

Post-Islamic Revolution" -- Events in Egypt Analyzed by French Expert on Political Islam | February 2011

meanwhile it appears the the government of bahrain has authorized a violent attack on the protestors there:

Live Blog - Bahrain | Al Jazeera Blogs

aceventura3 · 02-18-2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace....take the blinders off, put away the psycho-babble and listen...

From the guy who wrote "...indiscriminate political naturalisation..."???

dc_dux · 02-18-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

From the guy who wrote "...indiscriminate political naturalisation..."???

ace...get a grip.

I didnt write it. It was one of many demands, nearly all non-economic. of the leading protest group in Bahrain.

And, dlish offered an article that explained it.

Evidently, you didnt bother to read the article so I will make it simple so that even you can understand.

Those running the country are Sunni minority. Shiias in the country face discrimination at many level and this is just an example of one such policy.

aceventura3 · 02-18-2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Interesting. All revolutions are about:

A) an enigmatic political concept
b) the ability to feed your family

You underestimate the significance and broad coverage of choice B.

Quote:

So where does, "No taxation without representation" fit into that scheme?

That is clearly item B. That phrase has very little to do with a political system.

Quote:

Were America's founders having trouble feeding their families?

Unjust taxation through a colonial system designed to exploit the labor and resources of far away lands and people are never sustainable. I am not sure how you disagree - I did not say things had to be at the level of starvation. To the contrary, people literally starving rarely initiate revolution.

Quote:

How about the Canadian rebellions that sought to break the family compact's influence on the political realm of Upper and Lower Canada? (I know it's a bit of a stretch to expect your understanding of Canadian history... so I'll help you... they weren't starving).

I am not familiar with the above. But revolutions are different in my view than political movements or incremental changes through a political process.

dc_dux · 02-18-2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

That is clearly item B. That phrase has very little to do with a political system.

Wait...so now you are suggesting that "taxation without representation" (and the broader goal it represents) has very little to do with the political system?

Or the right to self-determination, representation in the government and free and fair elections?

WTF?

aceventura3 · 02-18-2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Wrong. There is a higher percentage of doctors, lawyers, and engineers protesting than the lower class. If it was a simple "can't feed my family" the technocrats would be silent. Please do your research on the country before proclaiming what the protesters are protesting.

No, I am not wrong. First, I doubt your "percentage" comment adds up. To suggest that a higher percentage is upper class in a country where the most people live in poverty is hard to believe and you give no source. I agree that "technocrats" as a class will join a revolution, but if they lead a revolution the message and appeal has to be targeted to the masses-or the people who are not upper-class.

Quote:

No real intellect is being able to comprehend the entire picture, not simply cutting and pasting only the parts that agree with your theory.

Perhaps there is a difference between what I share here and what I know. Often it is impossible to get beyond superficial name calling and ad hominim argument here. So, the obvious question to you is - have you come to a conclusion on less than the entire picture?

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

you obviously have no idea on the way bahrain is run nor do you have any idea on the tensions that run between the ruling sunni minority and the shia majority. but of course, this issue is simply a matter of economics and easily defined.

You talking about the tensions that have been there since about 600 a.d. - and last month all of a sudden they start a "revolution" - o.k., is that your story?

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace...get a grip.

I didnt write it.

O.k. you typed it in your post. Sorry.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

an interesting and useful essay by olivier roy that looks at tunisia and egypt as "post-islamicist revolutions"....an excerpt:

Roach, I am proud of the fact that we stand as "brothers" unified in the support of Egyptians as they fight for capitalist ideals - the ability for everyone to make excessive profits in a free market not controlled by tyrants, military or centralized command. Of course the article you cited misses the mark but I did find one more useful:

Quote:

The Egyptian military defends the country, but it also runs day care centers and beach resorts. Its divisions make television sets, jeeps, washing machines, wooden furniture and olive oil, as well as bottled water under a brand reportedly named after a general’s daughter, Safi.

From this vast web of businesses, the military pays no taxes, employs conscripted labor, buys public land on favorable terms and discloses nothing to Parliament or the public.

Since the ouster last week of President Hosni Mubarak, of course, the military also runs the government.

And some scholars, economists and business groups say it has already begun taking steps to protect the privileges of its gated economy, discouraging changes that some argue are crucial if Egypt is to emerge as a more stable, prosperous country.

“Protecting its businesses from scrutiny and accountability is a red line the military will draw,” said Robert Springborg, an expert on Egypt’s military at the Naval Postgraduate School.

“And that means there can be no meaningful civilian oversight.”

Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the minister of defense and military production who now leads the council of officers ruling Egypt, has been a strong advocate of government control of prices and production.

He has consistently opposed steps to open up the economy, according to diplomatic cables made public by WikiLeaks. And already there are signs that the military is purging from the cabinet and ruling party advocates of market-oriented economic changes, like selling off state-owned companies and reducing barriers to trade.

News Headlines

You do agree that the Egyptian people are fed up with being exploited and will not tolerate it from Mubarak or the military, don't you?

Power to the people.

---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Wait...so now you are suggesting that "taxation without representation" (and the broader goal it represents) has very little to do with the political system?

Yes.

When did the revolution start - 1775.

When was our form of government established - 1777. it did not become effective until 1781.

So, what eventually became the US, was initiated and fought by people before our form of government was even conceived. They did not even know what the form of government was going to be - and there was a heck of a lot of debate and the "C" word (compromise) right. Good thing I wasn't involved, no slavery or no union.

roachboy · 02-18-2011, 10:01 AM

meanwhile, out in the world that exists outside the tiny confines of ace's skull....

more violence in bahrain and libya.
clashes in yemen
demonstrations in iraq
in egypt, a massive turnout in tahrir square to keep the pressure on the military to carry out what has been demanded, to actually release prisoners and stop disappearing protestors, etc.
the more radical demands are for the elimination of the oligarchy itself. there's been an avalanche of corruption lawsuits over the past week...but the process is only just starting.
meanwhile strikes continue. the military does not have real control. it is interesting to watch.

here's an interesting blogpost assessing the situation in saudi arabia.
note the demands below.

Quote:

The Arab Revolution Saudi Update

Remember, in a former post, when I said that Saudis were captivated and shocked by what happened in Tunis and Egypt but hadn’t collectively made up their mind about it? Well it appears that they have. Everywhere I go and everything I read points to a revolution in our own country in the foreseeable future. However we are still on the ledge and haven’t jumped yet.

I know that some analysts are worried particularly of Saudi Arabia being taken over by Al Qaeda or a Sunni version of the Iranian Islamic Revolution. Calm down. Besides my gut feeling (which is rarely wrong), the overwhelming majority of people speaking out and calling out for a revolution are people who want democracy and civil rights and not more of our current Arab tradition based adaptation of Sharia. My theory of why that is, is that Al Qaeda has already exhausted its human resources here. The available muttawas, are career muttawas (fatwa sheikhs) and minor muttawas (PVPV) of convenience both paid by the government and do not want the current win-win deal between them and the government to sour. So it’s unlikely that they would actively seek change. Actually quite the opposite, they will resist and delay as much as they can. Fortunately the winds of change can’t be deterred by a PVPV cruiser.

Last night Prince Talal Bin Abdul Alaziz, the king’s half-brother, did a TV interview on BBC Arabia that was widely watched and discussed. In it he warned of an upcoming storm if reforms aren’t dealt with right now. He used the word “evils” to describe what would happen if King Abdullah passed away before ordering the required changes. Prince Talal also strongly advocated a constitutional monarchy and democracy as long as it’s similar to what they have in Kuwait and Jordon. However he hinted that there were people in the ruling family who do not believe in change.

This whole past week was eventful. The first political party to form during King’s Abdullah’s reign, the Islamic Umma Party, has been arrested. According to the party’s released statement, they were informed that they would not be released until they sign a document promising that they will abandon all political aspirations.
In Qatif, a Shia majority area in Eastern Saudi, there is talk that there was a protest demanding the release of political prisoners yesterday. Ahmed Al Omran from SaudiJeans tweeted a pamphlet that was being distributed in Qatif, calling for protests today, Feb 18th, at 8pm.

A hashtag on Twitter, #EgyEffectSa, about the effect of Egypt on Saudi was popular, with a lot of courageous Saudis speaking their mind. The common thread across most of the tweets was for human rights, freedom of speech, democracy and government accountability.

Saving the best for last, a 6100 strong and growing group on Facebook has been started. The group is only for Saudis and you need to be approved to join. I’ve translated their demands:

The People want to Reform the Government Campaign

To support the right of the Saudi people and their legitimate aspirations:
1 – a constitutional monarchy between the king and government.
2 – a written constitution approved by the people in which governing powers will be determined.
3 – transparency, accountability in fighting corruption
4 – the Government in the service of the people
5 – legislative elections.
6 – public freedoms and respect for human rights
7 – allowing civil society institutions
8 – full citizenship and the abolition of all forms of discrimination.
9 – Adoption of the rights of women and non-discrimination against them.
10 – an independent and fair judiciary.
11 – impartial development and equitable distribution of wealth.
12 – to seriously address the problem of unemployment

Impressive, right?! And if these demands aren’t met, according to a lot of the discussions on the group’s page, there will be a protest in Riyadh on Olaya street March 11th. I was also impressed by their code of conduct in which they committed to no sectarianism, no violence or incitement to violence, and no hate speech.
Everyone is holding their breath and delaying doing anything drastic until the King is back. Reports vary, some say he is expected Monday, others say Wednesday. Either way, whatever he does when he gets back will decide the fate of our country. In my opinion, the least he can do is draw up and announce a clear succession that will carry the throne from the brothers’ generation into their sons’. As this is an area of great concern and instability for Saudis because we fear that without a clear and public succession, we might have a civil war between factions of the ruling family. King Abdullah should name names such as heir1 then heir2 then heir3…etc so that the fifth or sixth is a ten or twelve year old. Thus stability is maintained fifty years into the future. Another thing that needs to be done is to aggressively fight corruption and promote transparency and accountability for everyone no matter who they are. If these two issues are taken care of as soon as he gets off the plane, then I predict that things just might calm down and a lot of people won’t be so anxious for change. If not, then the campaign above will just grow bigger and bigger and many more will crop up until eventually the Saudi people will cross the revolution threshold.

The Arab Revolution Saudi Update | Saudiwoman's Weblog

aceventura3 · 02-18-2011, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

meanwhile, out in the world that exists outside the tiny confines of ace's skull....

I think there are two possibilities, either you support the revolution for free market capitalism for the masses or you support the trade of one form of tyrannical rule for another. I bet you o.k. with tyrannical rule as long as it is consistent with your economic ideology. Perhaps, "power to the people" does not characterize what you think is best for Egypt.

Or, do you really believe that without economic reform that includes free market capitalism Egyptians will be o.k. with what is from your post:

Quote:

to actually release prisoners and stop disappearing protestors, etc.
the more radical demands are for the elimination of the oligarchy itself.

And if I may, on this idea of the more radical demands for the elimination of oligarchy -

Isn't the US form of democracy as a political system an oligarchy?
Is there a workable political system in operation on a national level anywhere in the world that is not an oligarchy?
Is the elimination of oligarchy really the ultimate goal of the protesters or is it perhaps more basic?

And before you go into your thing about my skull, understand that some people with formal lernin' have had the same questions:

Quote:

Robert Michels believed that any political system eventually evolves into an oligarchy. He called this the iron law of oligarchy. According to this school of thought, modern democracies should be considered as oligarchies. In these systems, actual differences between viable political rivals are small, the oligarchic elite impose strict limits on what constitutes an acceptable and respectable political position, and politicians' careers depend heavily on unelected economic and media elites. Thus the popular phrase: there is only one political party, the incumbent party.

Oligarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I thought you would be one who was all into the "iron law of oligarchy" thing. But, I have been wrong many times.

But that is boring stuff, tell me more about my imagination or that I don't know noth'n - or how about 'oh my goodness, he used Wikipedia'...

roachboy · 02-18-2011, 02:08 PM

how about we actually stick to the topic of the thread?
that topic is not you, ace.

sorry.

Baraka_Guru · 02-18-2011, 02:08 PM

ace, capitalism is a mode of economics, not a system of government. And free-market capitalism is a concept, not a practice.

And why must you always think in absolutes?

Capitalism will be a part of the picture. However, capitalism in itself is not a panacea for social ills.

dc_dux · 02-18-2011, 02:30 PM

oh no....the ace A or B Solutions for Simpletons Game again.

A - support the revolution for free market capitalism even though the revolution was about basic human rights and not free market capitalism. (BTW, free market capitalism does not exist anywhere in the world.)

or

B - support the trade of one form of tyrannical rule for another

How about neither of the above?

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

an interesting and useful essay by olivier roy that looks at tunisia and egypt as "post-islamicist revolutions"....an excerpt:

Quote:

What we see are people whose demands are focused mainly on dignity, on “respect” – a motto that emerged in Algeria in the late 1990s. Protestors are making demands in the name of universal human values. But what is important is that today people are demanding democracy as a right that is no longer something imported from the West. That is what makes it so crucially different from what the Bush administration promoted as democracy in 2003, which was unacceptable because it lacked any political legitimacy in the region, and instead was associated with a U.S. military intervention. However paradoxical it sounds, the fact is that the weakened position of the U.S. In the Middle East and the pragmatic posture of the Obama administration today have opened the way for an indigenous demand for democracy to emerge and take hold with its own legitimacy.

http://www.europeaninstitute.org/Feb...liver-roy.html

the piece is worth a read

Well stated.

Seaver · 02-18-2011, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Or, do you really believe that without economic reform that includes free market capitalism Egyptians will be o.k. with what is from your post:
Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1EMLaLKMF

Would you be ok living in China because they're capitalistic even though they have 0 rights? Government systems and economic systems are separate.

Quote:

Isn't the US form of democracy as a political system an oligarchy?
Is there a workable political system in operation on a national level anywhere in the world that is not an oligarchy?
Is the elimination of oligarchy really the ultimate goal of the protesters or is it perhaps more basic?

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1EMMFgWAj

A complete tangent but I'll bite. You're right, the US is an oligarchy. It's also the biggest danger we as a country face, as the rich families convince us to continually vote in their favor as the country itself suffers. Hell I learned a long time ago I'd never get to retire... at least now I know it's because of the oligarchy we live in.

Quote:

No, I am not wrong. First, I doubt your "percentage" comment adds up. To suggest that a higher percentage is upper class in a country where the most people live in poverty is hard to believe and you give no source. I agree that "technocrats" as a class will join a revolution, but if they lead a revolution the message and appeal has to be targeted to the masses-or the people who are not upper-class.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz1EMJD3Q7w

You continually show your lack of education for the region Ace, please stop arguing about stuff you've had 0 education in.

Lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors are NOT the upper class in Egypt. They belong to the technocrat class, a class that developed as a result of free education granted in the Socialist system through the 70s/80s/90s. The good part about it is it created from scratch an educated Middle Class where before none existed, the problem is they had too many highly educated people who now found themselves without jobs that supported their education. We are seeing more or less the same thing here in the US, where employment levels for College Grads are approaching 30% when you don't count jobs that pay less than $25k.

This causes a big issue when educated people are not granted social climbing abilities, as seen in Egypt where the Government chooses who is allowed to be successful and the military controls the vast majority of production in the country. These technocrats are the face of the revolution in Egypt. They have no problem feeding their families, but have no opportunity for social advancement regardless of skills possessed. Notice this isn't 100% in opposition to your economic justification for the problems, but you'll also notice it's significantly more complex than your "can't feed the kids" reasons that have almost no basis in the reality for the country.

Please don't just "quotation" any word you've never heard of before and write off the entire reason for it to be there. It's not too hard to google something you don't know, and it might enlighten entire aspects of the world you don't know.

dlish · 02-18-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

You talking about the tensions that have been there since about 600 a.d. - and last month all of a sudden they start a "revolution" - o.k., is that your story

No. im talking about Bahrain, not the sunni-shia split in Islam. I stand by my comment that you have no idea about the motivations of the Bahraini protestors.

in other news in Bahrain, interesting news coming from al jazeera is that wikileaks documents have Bahraini officials warning the US that some people in the Bahraini opposition have been trained by Hezbollah in lebanon. lt looks like the iranian element may be at play here.

roachboy · 02-19-2011, 06:38 AM

dlish: bahrain is different than the north african countries in terms of social composition (the overlay of shiá/sunni onto class differences)....and it seems more likely that iran might be interested in stoking the fire there in the abstract....but at the same time the mubarak regime was arresting people right and left the week before it fell including a couple friends....and they found themselves labeled iranian agents and/or as working for hezbollah....so that's also a red flag to wave, first to generate paranoia amongst the population and second in front of the united states as a way to shore up support for a crumbling dictatorship.

the revolt that's unfolding cannot be capitalist in the sense that it cannot and will not replicate the assymetries of wealth and power and the concentrations in the usage of resources like water....removing repressive regimes is a first step to dismantling (to one extent or another) the oligarchies that grew around those regimes; there is also economic policy/orientation and rationalities that need to be rethought once a transition into a different political arrangement is effected.

the information below about water is interesting...

Quote:

Freedom will not chase away the Arab world's triple crisis
By Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
Commentary by
Saturday, February 19, 2011

Economic want and inequality as much as political repression incited the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions. It is, of course, to be hoped that new governments in these countries, and other Arab leaders, will better address ordinary people’s grievances. But a mere change of government will not make these countries’ economic problems go away. The converging effects of population growth, climate change, and energy depletion are setting the stage for a looming triple crisis.

The Arab world accounts for 6.3 percent of the world’s population but only 1.4 percent of its renewable fresh water. Twelve of the world’s 15 most water-scarce countries – Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Bahrain, Israel and Palestine – are in the region, and in eight, available fresh water amounts annually to less than 250 cubic meters per person. Three-quarters of the region’s available fresh water is in just four countries: Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.

Water consumption in the region is linked overwhelmingly to industrial agriculture. From 1965 to 1997, population growth drove demand for agricultural development, leading to a doubling of land under irrigation. Demographic expansion in these countries is set to dramatically worsen their predicament.

Although birth rates are falling, one-third of the overall population is below 15 years old, and large numbers of young women are reaching reproductive age, or soon will be. The United Kingdom’s Defense Ministry has projected that by 2030 the population of the Middle East will increase by 132 percent, and that of sub-Saharan Africa by 81 percent, generating an unprecedented “youth bulge.”

The World Bank’s Water Sector Assessment Report on the Gulf countries, published in 2005, predicts that these demographic pressures will likely cause the availability of fresh water to halve, exacerbating the danger of inter-state conflict. Competition to control water has already played a key role in regional geopolitical tensions, for instance, between Turkey and Syria; Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority; Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia; and between Saudi Arabia and its neighbors, Qatar, Bahrain and Jordan.

A halving of available water supplies could turn these tensions into open hostilities. Indeed, while economic growth, accompanied by greater urbanization and higher per capita incomes, has translated into greater demand for fresh water, the population movements that have resulted are now exacerbating local ethnic tensions.

As early as 2015, the average Arab will be forced to survive on less than 500 cubic meters of water per year, a level defined as severe scarcity. Shifts in rainfall patterns will certainly affect crops, particularly rice. A “business-as-usual” model for climate change suggests that global average temperatures could rise by 4 degrees Celsius by mid-century. This would devastate agriculture in the region, with crop yields falling by 15-35 percent, depending on the strength of carbon fertilization.

The cost of infrastructure capable of responding to the intensifying water crisis could amount to trillions of dollars, and its development would itself be energy-intensive. As a result, new infrastructure would only mitigate the impact of scarcity on richer countries.

Hydrocarbon energy depletion is set to complicate matters even more. In its World Energy Outlook for 2010, the International Energy Agency argued that conventional oil production worldwide probably peaked in 2006, and is now declining. This conclusion fits the latest output data, which shows that world oil production has been undulating but gradually falling since around 2005. Yet the IEA also argued that the shortfall will be made up from greater exploitation of unconventional oil and gas reserves, albeit at far higher prices, owing to the greater environmental and extraction costs.

The bad news is that the IEA’s optimism about unconventional sources could be misplaced. The six biggest Middle Eastern oil-producing countries officially hold around 740 billion barrels of proven oil reserves. But the British geologist Euan Mearns of Aberdeen University notes that published data put the most likely size of these reserves at only around 350 billion barrels. And the U.K. government’s former chief scientific adviser, David King, found in a study for Energy Policy that official world oil reserves had been overstated by up to one-third – implying that we are on the verge of a major “tipping point” in oil production.

All of this means not only that the era of cheap oil is over, but also that, within the next decade or so, major oil-producing countries will struggle against costly geological constraints. If that proves to be true, then by 2020 – and perhaps as early as 2015 – the contribution of Middle East oil to world energy consumption could become negligible. That would mean a catastrophic loss of state revenues for today’s major Arab oil-producing countries, rendering them highly vulnerable to the compounding consequences of existing water shortages, rapid demographic expansion, climate change, and declining crop yields.

This worst-case scenario is not inevitable, but there is only a short window of opportunity for policies to address the situation. Reviving conservation, management and distribution efforts could reduce water consumption and increase efficiency, but these measures need to be combined with radical reforms to speed the transition away from oil dependence to a zero-carbon renewable-energy infrastructure.

Concerted investments in health, education and citizens’ rights, especially for women, are the key tools for alleviating population growth in the region and diversifying its economies. It is now increasingly clear that Arab governments that fail to implement such measures urgently are unlikely to survive.

Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed is executive director of the Institute for Policy Research & Development in London, and the author of “A User’s Guide to the Crisis of Civilization: And How to Save It.” THE DAILY STAR publishes this commentary in collaboration with Project Syndicate-Europe’s World © (Project Syndicate - the highest quality op-ed ( opinion-editorial ) articles and commentaries and Europe's World - The only Europe-wide ideas Community).

(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: Lebanon News :: Middle East News :: The Daily Star - Lebanon)

libya
bahrain
algeria
yemen

Libya and Bahrain protests ? LIVE | World news | guardian.co.uk

AJE - Al Jazeera English

and just in case you thought that all this change would be reflected in any way in united states policy toward israel....

US vetoes UN draft on settlements - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

unbelievable.

dlish · 02-20-2011, 04:31 AM

i have a friend who lives in Manama in Bahrain who i spoke to yesterday. He's not in a position to say too much right now, which is understandable, but what he did say was that where he is, there is absolutely nothing going in in or around his neighbourhood.

By the sounds of it, he seems to think that there's just a few punks running around causing a ruckus and they're getting the exposure they want on Al Jazeera.

has AJ taken a stand to report in a biased manner against all of these governments? AJ has reported in the last few days that Libya has blocked access for AJ to broacast there as well as access to the AJ website.

AJ is not winning friends in the arab world right now. What i find interesting is that if things start to go haywire in Qatar, how would AJ report it? would they even be allowed to broadcast?

roachboy · 02-20-2011, 08:26 AM

the reports coming out of libya are really grim. there may be 200 people killed already in benghazi. rumors are that mercenaries are being brought in from chad and sudan to suppress the protestors. they are apparently firing live ammunition at unarmed people.

i don't think the problem is al jazeera.

Baraka_Guru · 02-20-2011, 07:24 PM

Regarding Libya, I hear numbers could be as high as 300 to 500, while "official" numbers are just above 80.

Yet after this unrest, it would seem the regime in Libya could be poised to fall next, despite the incoming mercenary forces. It's still early, and it hasn't been confirmed, but the Libyan ambassador to China has resigned on the air, and stated that the brothers Gaddafi had it out with gunfire and Gaddafi himself may have fled the country.

Regardless, things are looking quite volatile. One of Gaddafi's sons has admitted that the east has been lost.

Libyan PM Gaddafi may have fled country, says Al Jazeera, citing unconfirmed reports | The Daily Telegraph

Charlatan · 02-20-2011, 08:26 PM

I was reading that the median age of the population in many of these countries is anywhere from 20 to 26. The median age is the age that divides the population (i.e. half of the population of any one of these countries is below the age of 20-26). Compare this to a median age of, roughly, 40 in the US or UK.

If you add into this, that many of these youth have been highly educated at the expense of the government (a form of buying off opposition using oil profits) you can see where a massive amount of discontent is coming from.

What I continue to find amazing is that a lot of this does not appear to be driven by the Fundamentalists.

dlish · 02-20-2011, 08:47 PM

its borne out of discontent of the rule of tyrants. Saif Ghaddafi isnt any better than his father, though he's more sellable to the west. i really think its time to try another system of government if the last one did work for 42 years.

if they dont do it now, another libyan generation will live under similar rule and under similar oppression. 42 years is a long run..how many american presidents have we had in the meantime?

charlatan- is there a difference between Fundamentalists & fundamentalists?

Baraka_Guru · 02-20-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

if they dont do it now, another libyan generation will live under similar rule and under similar oppression. 42 years is a long run..how many american presidents have we had in the meantime?

Richard Nixon wasn't even president for a year when Gaddafi became de facto leader.

Charlatan · 02-20-2011, 11:02 PM

I suppose there is a difference but I was not intending one. The capitalization was unintentional.

dlish · 02-21-2011, 04:13 AM

well the gaddafi's are blaming the fundamentalists at the moment ...as well as "troublemakers"...it may have been "hoodlums" i dont remember, but it makes no difference really. I think they're all made up anyways.

i dont even know if there's a religious party in Libya that would be influencial enough to make any impact on the reformists.

aceventura3 · 02-21-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

how about we actually stick to the topic of the thread?
that topic is not you, ace.

sorry.

You choose to ignore the substance of posts that contains question, comment, argument or information that does not support your point of view, while making sport of commenting on the poster. You should be sorry for that. I make sport of targeting you because of your arrogance to posters who either challenge you or make a comment not consistent with your ideology. Whenever you want to elevate the discourse, it will be done. Yes, I already know that I am kinda petty, like that - but at least I know it when I am doing it.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

ace, capitalism is a mode of economics, not a system of government. And free-market capitalism is a concept, not a practice.

I worship at the alter of capitalism, so to speak. I put capitalism above any form of government. In my mind capitalism is more than just a concept.

Quote:

And why must you always think in absolutes?

It is my nature.

I can ask you - why do you think in straight lines and right angles? Your thought processes are linear - similar to many others who post here.

Quote:

Capitalism will be a part of the picture. However, capitalism in itself is not a panacea for social ills.

I disagree.

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

oh no....the ace A or B Solutions for Simpletons Game again.

A - support the revolution for free market capitalism even though the revolution was about basic human rights and not free market capitalism. (BTW, free market capitalism does not exist anywhere in the world.)

or

B - support the trade of one form of tyrannical rule for another

How about neither of the above?

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

Well stated.

What is a more basic human right than being able to profit ( gain benefit) from one's labor, intellect and property?

If you ever answer any question, please think about and answer this one. Perhaps, if you do answer, we can understand each other for once.

roachboy · 02-21-2011, 01:24 PM

libya's un delegation has had enough:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/wo...ef=global-home

there have been reports of resignations in multiple libyan embassies around the world in protest of kadhafi's use of mercenaries (in some reports) or the army (in others) to massacre civilians in benghazi and tripoli (the former being at this point confirmed as worse...but reports are sketchy still).

two fighters defected to malta after the pilots refused to fire on protestors.
there are reports of other pilots also refusing in benghazi.

Live Blog - Libya | Al Jazeera Blogs

other reports of army incursion into cities in the east are counter-balanced with reports that the libyan army has moved off the egyptian border.

the situation in tripoli is apparently a function of class position; pretty quiet in middle-class areas, bombing of poorer areas. again, so go the reports.

there are caravans with medical supplies heading from egypt.

it's a brutal situation at the moment.

meanwhile

Quote:

Oil surges as Libyan protests threaten supply

By Jack Farchy in London

Published: February 21 2011 12:22 | Last updated: February 21 2011 12:22

Oil prices jumped to a two-year high above $105 a barrel as the wave of protests that has swept across the Middle East hits Libya, for the first time affecting a significant producer of crude.

Traders said the growing unrest in Libya – where a bloody weekend ended with more than 200 people reported killed – was more significant to the oil market than earlier protests in Tunisia and Egypt.

“Compared to Tunisia (a minor crude exporter) or Egypt (not an exporter but a transit country), instability in Libya is a major concern to the oil industry,” said JBC Energy, a Vienna-based consultancy.

Libya is a medium-sized member of Opec, the oil producers’ cartel, producing 1.6m barrels a day out of a global total of 88.5m barrels a day, according to data from the International Energy Agency. It is an important exporter of crude to Europe, supplying just over 1m barrels a day to the continent, with Italy, France and Germany the top importers.

Crude oil futures rallied sharply on Monday after a weekend of protests and violence across the country, which culminated in a speech by Seif al-Islam Gaddafi, the son of leader Muammer Gaddafi, in which he warned that a civil war could result in Libya’s oil being “burned by thugs, criminals, gangs and tribes”.

European Brent oil futures rose 2.5 per cent to a peak of $105.08 a barrel – the highest since September 2008. West Texas Intermediate, the US benchmark, was 3.6 per cent higher at $89.33.

Precious metals also benefited from the uncertainty in the Middle East, as investors sought safety and switched out of assets perceived as riskier. Gold touched $1,400 an ounce for the first time since early January, up 1.2 per cent on the day, while silver hit a fresh 30-year high of $33.50.

The immediate effect of the unrest on Libya’s oil production was unclear.

The market was buoyed by an unconfirmed report from Al-Jazeera, the Arab news channel, that a strike had stopped production at the Nafoora oilfield in the country’s Sirte basin.

European majors such as BP, Royal Dutch Shell and Statoil said they had halted some exploration operations in the country and evacuated staff.

FT.com / Commodities - Oil surges as Libyan protests threaten supply

aceventura3 · 02-21-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Would you be ok living in China because they're capitalistic even though they have 0 rights? Government systems and economic systems are separate.

Your question is confusing, because I do not know how you have real capitalism without rights.

Quote:

A complete tangent but I'll bite. You're right, the US is an oligarchy. It's also the biggest danger we as a country face, as the rich families convince us to continually vote in their favor as the country itself suffers. Hell I learned a long time ago I'd never get to retire... at least now I know it's because of the oligarchy we live in.

I moved out of California because those in power were not in sync with my views. I moved to a state where those in power more closely reflected my values. hence I have no problem with oligarchy, when those in power reflect my views and my values.

Quote:

You continually show your lack of education for the region Ace, please stop arguing about stuff you've had 0 education in.

That is my point. You and others seem to think this situation is somehow special and unique - it is not. Human behavior is predictable.

Quote:

We are seeing more or less the same thing here in the US, where employment levels for College Grads are approaching 30% when you don't count jobs that pay less than $25k.

Excessive centralized controls over the economy, like in Egypt hinders productive employment. Egypt, and to a lesser degree here, has an economy not growing fast enough to absorb the growth in the labor pool. The problem is global in scope and affecting various countries in various degrees - but it stll comes down to economics. That has been the general theme of the points I present, and it is not complicated.

Quote:

Please don't just "quotation" any word you've never heard of before and write off the entire reason for it to be there. It's not too hard to google something you don't know, and it might enlighten entire aspects of the world you don't know.

When I use quotations around a word, it is often when that word is open to various interpretations or is more context based than would be the case in normal discourse.

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

No. im talking about Bahrain, not the sunni-shia split in Islam. I stand by my comment that you have no idea about the motivations of the Bahraini protestors.

in other news in Bahrain, interesting news coming from al jazeera is that wikileaks documents have Bahraini officials warning the US that some people in the Bahraini opposition have been trained by Hezbollah in lebanon. lt looks like the iranian element may be at play here.

I agree that there are going to be factions in a "revolution" that will have what may be considered hidden motivations not consistent with the motives of the masses.

dlish · 02-21-2011, 01:41 PM

i was watching aljazeera arabic, and aljazeera english seems tame in comparison.

i also watch al arabia arabic channel, and the comparison between it and al jazeera is worlds apart.

aljazeera is reporting 250 dead in carpet bombing of protesters in tripoli. There are also reports coming out that an air force general is warning the protesters of bombing by air within the next hour.

all in all, a dire situation. you cant turn on your people and expect them to support you. this has got to be the endgame for this tyrant.

02-16-2011, 09:15 AM	#244 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	your aversion to complexity makes of you a dull boy, ace. i have a friend who's a trader who argues similar things after 5 or 6 beverages---"watch their feet" he says. he calls me comade. i call him my favorite reactionary. when we push off that har-de-har stuff, it's possible to have conversations about things in which, to both our surprise, we often actually agree about some things because working with a common data set is like that. you have set up some arbitrary division between economics and politics. you have done it in a way that seems almost set up to grind discussion to a halt. you pretend that you're refuting some claim i've made, when reality is that i've said over and over there's nothing to the split you're arguing for outside your simplifying imagination. yet you continue. the thread is about the revolts that are happening across the region and not about aceventura's inability to think in terms of complexity. ===== speaking of which, here is an interesting interview (in french, sadly) about the situation in algeria at the moment. http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01012...soit-trop-fort the woman being interviewed is a researcher at the cnrs who was in oran last week when the protests happened in algiers. she talks about how difficult it is to get a sense of what "the situation in algeria" really is, that what it appears to be varies by geography and social group/community...so its not one thing, "the situation"---she talks about the presence of the kabyle population and its political mobilization, which has had the effect of making protest into "a kabyle thing" in some areas. but mostly it's about the divergent history of algeria, which had open elections in 1988 in which the fis (islamic salvation front) won---the result of that was almost a decade of civil war. her main point is that things are building---something is going on---and a lot of younger folk (from her perspective of course, but she says as much) are interested in leaving the country on account of it because the experience of civil war raises the possibility that the price to be paid for revolt may be too high. it's interesting, i think. there's more in the interview... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 02-16-2011 at 09:33 AM..

02-16-2011, 01:39 PM	#247 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	just in case it's of interest what is happening in actual multi-dimensional reality and not merely in that simple-minded quadrant where ace here is able to take a regional revolution and turn it into a reason to talk about himself and his new-found vulgar marxist theory of revolution, this goes to the guardian live blog for the day: Middle East protests - live updates \| News \| guardian.co.uk stuff happening in libya, agitation in morocco, bahrain, yemen, iran and egypt. al jazeera coverage of bahrian: Live Blog - Bahrain \| Al Jazeera Blogs a quite interesting post about the complexity in algeria: Additional notes on the Algerian situation The Moor Next Door the ny times coverage is heavier on iran: Latest Updates on Middle East Protests - NYTimes.com __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-16-2011, 01:42 PM	#248 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	I get it, ace. You will just ignore what the April 6 Movement leaders said when they called for the people to protest against, and condemn, police brutality or what the Coalition of the Revolution's Youth demanded- the end of emergency laws and for free and fair elections.... You and your little chart know better than what is the hearts and minds of the people on the streets of Cairo. Or Bahrain and what the Bahrain Youth for Freedom movement is demanding in that country: We want a genuine political life in which the people alone are the source of powers and legislation. We want a constitution drawn up by the people, and agreed upon, which is the arbitrator and judge in the relationship of the ruler to the ruled. We want genuine and fair elections based on fair foundations and the distribution of constituencies in which the vote of every individual Bahraini is equal. We want genuine representation, without the accusation of treason whenever we go out to demand our rights. We want a Council of Representatives that reflects the composition of the Bahraini people, without the majority being a minority and the minority a majority. We want a government that is elected, based on people’s competencies rather than “loyalties”. We want to fight corruption and stop the plundering of resources, and achieve a fair distribution of wealth. We want to stop nepotism, and to prevent recruitment according to affiliation, and to open all sectors, especially the military, to all people. We want an end to indiscriminate political naturalisation, which has increased the burden on services and oppressed people. We want true freedom, without a law against “terrorism” and “gatherings”. We want true media freedom, and the door to be opened for everyone to express their opinions freely and without fear. We want security in villages and towns, and the release of political prisoners and the reform of prisons, and the end of oppression, torture and intimidation. We want genuine solutions to the problems of unemployment, housing, education, and health. We want the police to “serve the people”, and we want the army to be of the people. This is truly what we want; we do not want to overthrow the regime, as many imagine, and we do not want to gain control of the government, we do not want chairs and seats here or there. We want to be a people living with dignity and rights. bint battuta in bahrain: february 14 But you know what is more important than their words....."its the economy, stupid protesters." __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-16-2011 at 01:44 PM..

02-16-2011, 01:42 PM	#249 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you'll likely ignore what the people who are agitating for change in morocco are saying too, ace. YouTube - Morocco campaign #feb20 #morocco no doubt these people are not in contact with reality quite the way you are. they must all be ph.d.s. (sorry, but i can't seem to get the version with the english subtitles to embed here. dont know why quite) __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 02-16-2011 at 01:45 PM..

02-16-2011, 03:41 PM	#251 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	ace....take the blinders off, put away the psycho-babble and listen, really listen (or read) what the protesters on the streets of Egypt, Algeria, Bahrain, Yemen, etc. are saying. When you ignore it or mock it, I would describe it as a form of American (or conservative) arrogance, suggesting that you know the reasons behind these uprisings better than those on the streets of these countries. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

02-16-2011, 04:14 PM	#252 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Interesting. All revolutions are about: A) an enigmatic political concept b) the ability to feed your family So where does, "No taxation without representation" fit into that scheme? Were America's founders having trouble feeding their families? How about the Canadian rebellions that sought to break the family compact's influence on the political realm of Upper and Lower Canada? (I know it's a bit of a stretch to expect your understanding of Canadian history... so I'll help you... they weren't starving). If you insist on boiling these current protests down to some simple slogan, I would suggest it is more about, "Egyptians taking control of Egypt" than anything else. This encompasses, not only the economic realm but the political levers of power that create those opportunities and allow a nation's forward motion through the collective will of the people, rather than the drive of an individual or some oligarchy. In other words, it's not just the economy stupid. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-18-2011, 02:08 PM	#263 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	how about we actually stick to the topic of the thread? that topic is not you, ace. sorry. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-18-2011, 02:08 PM	#264 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	ace, capitalism is a mode of economics, not a system of government. And free-market capitalism is a concept, not a practice. And why must you always think in absolutes? Capitalism will be a part of the picture. However, capitalism in itself is not a panacea for social ills. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-20-2011, 04:31 AM	#269 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i have a friend who lives in Manama in Bahrain who i spoke to yesterday. He's not in a position to say too much right now, which is understandable, but what he did say was that where he is, there is absolutely nothing going in in or around his neighbourhood. By the sounds of it, he seems to think that there's just a few punks running around causing a ruckus and they're getting the exposure they want on Al Jazeera. has AJ taken a stand to report in a biased manner against all of these governments? AJ has reported in the last few days that Libya has blocked access for AJ to broacast there as well as access to the AJ website. AJ is not winning friends in the arab world right now. What i find interesting is that if things start to go haywire in Qatar, how would AJ report it? would they even be allowed to broadcast? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

02-20-2011, 08:26 AM	#270 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the reports coming out of libya are really grim. there may be 200 people killed already in benghazi. rumors are that mercenaries are being brought in from chad and sudan to suppress the protestors. they are apparently firing live ammunition at unarmed people. i don't think the problem is al jazeera. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-20-2011, 07:24 PM	#271 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Regarding Libya, I hear numbers could be as high as 300 to 500, while "official" numbers are just above 80. Yet after this unrest, it would seem the regime in Libya could be poised to fall next, despite the incoming mercenary forces. It's still early, and it hasn't been confirmed, but the Libyan ambassador to China has resigned on the air, and stated that the brothers Gaddafi had it out with gunfire and Gaddafi himself may have fled the country. Regardless, things are looking quite volatile. One of Gaddafi's sons has admitted that the east has been lost. Libyan PM Gaddafi may have fled country, says Al Jazeera, citing unconfirmed reports \| The Daily Telegraph __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-20-2011, 08:26 PM	#272 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I was reading that the median age of the population in many of these countries is anywhere from 20 to 26. The median age is the age that divides the population (i.e. half of the population of any one of these countries is below the age of 20-26). Compare this to a median age of, roughly, 40 in the US or UK. If you add into this, that many of these youth have been highly educated at the expense of the government (a form of buying off opposition using oil profits) you can see where a massive amount of discontent is coming from. What I continue to find amazing is that a lot of this does not appear to be driven by the Fundamentalists. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-20-2011, 08:47 PM	#273 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	its borne out of discontent of the rule of tyrants. Saif Ghaddafi isnt any better than his father, though he's more sellable to the west. i really think its time to try another system of government if the last one did work for 42 years. if they dont do it now, another libyan generation will live under similar rule and under similar oppression. 42 years is a long run..how many american presidents have we had in the meantime? charlatan- is there a difference between Fundamentalists & fundamentalists? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

02-20-2011, 11:02 PM	#275 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I suppose there is a difference but I was not intending one. The capitalization was unintentional. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-21-2011, 04:13 AM	#276 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	well the gaddafi's are blaming the fundamentalists at the moment ...as well as "troublemakers"...it may have been "hoodlums" i dont remember, but it makes no difference really. I think they're all made up anyways. i dont even know if there's a religious party in Libya that would be influencial enough to make any impact on the reformists. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

02-21-2011, 01:41 PM	#280 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i was watching aljazeera arabic, and aljazeera english seems tame in comparison. i also watch al arabia arabic channel, and the comparison between it and al jazeera is worlds apart. aljazeera is reporting 250 dead in carpet bombing of protesters in tripoli. There are also reports coming out that an air force general is warning the protesters of bombing by air within the next hour. all in all, a dire situation. you cant turn on your people and expect them to support you. this has got to be the endgame for this tyrant. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy