US Rep. Giffords (D-AZ) shot at public event - Page 7 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

filtherton · 01-13-2011, 08:40 AM

Now this is what I call good satire.

Apparently, this is in Tuscon.

I think he should next use an image of the twin towers burning with the tagline "Rush Limbaugh, Flying Right"?

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 08:58 AM

It's kind of surreal in that it's very polarized and at the same time both major parties really do not behave much differently then the other when in power. Both parties are well aware that the % needed to win control is actually very small. 2 maybe 3% can often mean being in control or playing obstructionist (or acting like you're playing obstructionist so folks back home will re-elect you.)

roachboy · 01-13-2011, 09:09 AM

Quote:

A Message To Sarah Palin from Media Matters CEO David Brock

BROCK: This morning you released a video condemning your critics for highlighting the danger posed by the Right's stoking of anti-government anger and violence. You attacked those who, like me, are concerned that irresponsible rhetoric could motivate troubled people to do the unthinkable. In your video you accused your critics of engaging in "blood libel" and inciting violence simply by speaking out against it.

I agree with you that the "monstrous act of criminality" committed this past weekend in Arizona stands on its own and that we as Americans are better than mindless finger-pointing in the tragedy's wake. I also endorse your purported desire to "peacefully engage in the great debates of our time."

Since early 2009, when the Right ratcheted up its attacks on President Obama and progressive policies, I have warned about the very real dangers of extreme anti-government rhetoric. Last October, I said on national television that the use of violent imagery creates a climate of fear, suspicion and paranoia that could lead to another Oklahoma City.

During the culture wars of the 1990s, right-wing extremists killed 168 people in Oklahoma City and terrorized hundreds of others in Atlanta's Centennial Olympic Park and at abortion clinics in the South.

On May 6, 1995, after the bombing, President Clinton said, "There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."

This fall I was especially concerned with three assassination attempts directly linked to your ally and fellow Fox News contributor Glenn Beck.

Soon after, Beck poisoned Nancy Pelosi in effigy on his set, a man threatened to firebomb Pelosi's San Francisco residence. The man's mother said her son got all his ideas from Fox News.

In March, Senator Patty Murray received a death threat after voting to reform our nation's health care system. The potential assassin said she had a target on her back and it would only take one bullet to accomplish his objective. Charles Wilson was arrested and convicted for repeatedly threatening to kill Murray. During the sentencing phase of his trial, Wilson's cousin submitted a memo to the court arguing for leniency.

The cousin wrote:

"What happened later with Charlie is something I think I can understand. He became basically housebound due to illness and his small world became even smaller. His brother got him a computer and he was able to stay connected with family. And he watched television and found Glenn Beck...I found Glenn Beck about the same time that Charlie did and I understand how his fears were grown and fostered by Mr. Beck's persuasive personality...While his actions were undeniably wrong and his choices terrible, in part they were the actions of others played out against a very gullible Charlie. He was under the spell that Glenn Beck cast, aided by the turbulent times in our economy."

Finally, in a jailhouse interview this summer, California gunman Byron Williams said he was inspired by Beck -- whom he called his "schoolteacher on TV" -- to try to assassinate the staff of a liberal philanthropic foundation in San Francisco.

When I publicly called on you to use your leadership position to tone down the rhetoric of Beck, Tea Party leaders and other right-wing radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh, I also noted your use of phrases on the campaign trail such as "Don't Retreat, Instead RELOAD."

In response to my request, you made a deliberate decision to align yourself with Beck -- you went on his radio show and said "I stand with you, Glenn" -- and took no responsibility for your own words and actions.

Congresswoman Giffords, who is clinging to life in an Arizona hospital as I speak, did have something to say about your actions.

GIFFORDS (video clip): For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list. But the thing is, the way she has it depicted has the cross-hairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action.

Gabby voted for the three cornerstones of the Obama Presidency: the economic stimulus program, the health care legislation, and caps on carbon emissions. She opposed the draconian Arizona law aimed at illegal immigrants. Her opponent Jesse Kelly was a Tea Party extremist who said things like "we're going to show them what a mob looks like." Karl Rove and his allies ran hundreds of thousands of dollars in TV commercials to elect him and defeat Gabby.

In your video, you predictably blame the media for libeling you. My view is you and your right-wing conspirators have gotten off easy. Most in the press dismiss the import of your words as careless constructions or run-of-the mill political phrases, presuming you do not understand or mean what you say and do.

But I know what you do. We are just off a campaign cycle in which you and the Republican candidates you supported raised the prospect of armed revolt if Washington did not change its ways. Much of your message centered -- like the Tea Party moniker itself -- on imagery of armed revolution and existential clashes in which the freedom of our country is at stake. This is a lie.

You and Beck and Limbaugh pander to the margin of the margins, employing whatever words win you contributions or ratings, the consequences be damned.

Promoting anti-government extremism is your business. Without it you are nothing. And you know it.

Instead of posting videos in the dark of night, I challenge you to have the peaceful debate you say you want -- with me -- at the time and place and in the venue of your choosing.

Governor Palin, at this time of national mourning, you owe the American people a more honest explanation of your words and actions than the one you issued today.

Maybe then you could stop dwelling over your own PR troubles and join me in trying to prevent such a tragedy like this from ever happening again.

A Message To Sarah Palin from Media Matters CEO David Brock | Media Matters for America

go to the link for the clip version.

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 09:33 AM

I'm going to bet she sticks with Facebook, Twitter and video messages. Her debate skills are lacking.

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I'm going to bet she sticks with Facebook, Twitter and video messages. Her debate skills are lacking.

As a Palin fan, I love this. I watched MSNBC after Obama's speech last night and a bit this morning - Palin's coverage seemed to be close to equal of Obama's coverage. Not bad for an unemployed politician from Wasila, Alaska. Palin's monologue was memorable, love it or hate it, Obama's speech was very forgettable.

Often sage advise goes ignored around here, but Like I said before -if those who hate Palin want her to fade out of the public eye the best thing to do is simply ignore her. She is never going to stop fighting back, and those of us who love her - love that the most. The more she is targeted, the more she will be the focus and you can bet one thing for certain - I am going to stand with her. If you folks want the "tone" changed - it is your move.

roachboy · 01-13-2011, 10:43 AM

right, because conservatives are never responsible for anything: they're always reactive; they're always the victim.

that's idiotic.

maybe a viewpoint on this from outside the conservative delusion-o-rama:

Quote:

Crude though it is to say so, it will have boosted the president's standing enormously. After the partisan bickering that followed Saturday's killings, Obama stepped forward to be what analyst Nate Silver called "the adult in the room". This was meant to be the Republicans' week, as they took control of the House of Representatives and its legislative agenda. Instead they look small – as well as defensive, fending off accusations that it was the violent rhetoric of the right that fuelled the current toxic political environment. None smaller than the de facto leader of today's Republican party, Sarah Palin, who preceded the Tucson address with an aggressive, self-regarding and petty-minded videotaped message that claimed she had been the victim of a "blood libel". The contrast between the two performances could not have been sharper.

here's the article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...tor-politician

Baraka_Guru · 01-13-2011, 10:55 AM

So, ace, you love her carefully manufactured messages? I suppose the most recent video was well made. I wonder how much it cost her. I'm also wondering if this is a turning point in the "is she going to run/isn't she going to run" question.

Are you not concerned about her ability to handle situations on the fly, or her ability to process new information and think about it critically?

Anyway, it's difficult to ignore such a dangerous and misleading voice in American politics. Not that it matters. Ignoring her won't change much. If anything, she'll sell that as "the elite's indifference/apathy regarding the problems facing America." She might not be the best debater, but she certainly knows how to push the conservative populist rhetoric.

Derwood · 01-13-2011, 10:56 AM

We don't want her to go away. We want her to stay in the forefront so that maybe she'll run for President in 2012

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 11:19 AM

For the record I do not hate Palin. I understand she's a mother, a wife, someones daughter. She has kids I'm sure they love their mother, as they should. I do not like her public persona, not even sure if she buys all the BS she's shoveling. I think much of what she says is very uneducated and ill advised and misinformed. I also think much of what she says hurts the country way more then it helps. But I would feel bad if someone decided to preform an act of violence towards her or family. That would likely hurt the country more then anything she's done.. so far.

I agree with Derwood, right now I'm hoping she runs in 2012. But only because I believe the vast majority of US voters do not buy her line of BS.

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

right, because conservatives are never responsible for anything: they're always reactive; they're always the victim.

No. And Palin goes beyond simply being conservative, Bush had this trait also. Some of us don't care about what others want us to be or what others want us to say. We will not compromise on matters of importance and we will not walk away from a confrontation. But on the other hand if you give respect you get respect.

Again Palin is not a victim, she is a fighter. Your problem and others have this problem as well is your lack of experience in dealing with people you will go toe to toe with you and give it back. You get flabbergasted, wondering why don't people like Palin just go away - we have already proven she is not worthy? So the question for folks like you is are you able to employ a different approach, one that might help you accomplish your goals.

Quote:

that's idiotic.

Palin goes from obscurity to national prominence with no real, according to folks like you, talent, education, sophistication, connections, special privilege, or whatever - something you can't do or 99.9999999999% of the people on this planet, and she is the idiotic one???? Right! Sure you don't wanna re-think that one? You will never appreciate how humorous this is given the incoherence you and others present on the Palin issue.

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

So, ace, you love her carefully manufactured messages? I suppose the most recent video was well made. I wonder how much it cost her. I'm also wondering if this is a turning point in the "is she going to run/isn't she going to run" question.

Are you not concerned about her ability to handle situations on the fly, or her ability to process new information and think about it critically?

Anyway, it's difficult to ignore such a dangerous and misleading voice in American politics. Not that it matters. Ignoring her won't change much. If anything, she'll sell that as "the elite's indifference/apathy regarding the problems facing America." She might not be the best debater, but she certainly knows how to push the conservative populist rhetoric.

She's got the folks behind her that will ignore most of her mistakes and focus any, however slight, mistake the other side makes. Really it's the same people that stood by Bush regardless of how poorly he preformed. Good news is they only make up about 1/3 of the voters right now. Palin will need to really rally her base, she not going to win over any new folks. This why she sticks to Facebook and Fox News. She and her people know when she gets in front of any other audience she's seen for what she is... an empty pant suit.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Palin goes from obscurity to national prominence with no real, according to folks like you, talent, education, sophistication, connections, special privilege, or whatever - something you can't do or 99.9999999999% of the people on this planet, and she is the idiotic one???? Right! Sure you don't wanna re-think that one? You will never appreciate how humorous this is given the incoherence you and others present on the Palin issue.

Wow, you may have something there. Or she became popular with a % of the country after McCain (who's probably still kicking himself in the ass) picked her name out of a hat as a last ditched effort to save his failing campaign.

If you believe she did this because she has some special talent then maybe you believe William Hung became a household name because he sang "She bang" so well.

Baraka_Guru · 01-13-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

She's got the folks behind her that will ignore most of her mistakes and focus any, however slight, mistake the other side makes. Really it's the same people that stood by Bush regardless of how poorly he preformed. Good news is they only make up about 1/3 of the voters right now. Palin will need to really rally her base, she not going to win over any new folks. This why she sticks to Facebook and Fox News. She and her people know when she gets in front of any other audience she's seen for what she is... an empty pant suit.

Except I don't view her as an empty pantsuit. I view her as a descendant (voodoo econonecromancer?) of Reagan. I get the feeling, however, that she will go beyond Reagan. She wants to be like Reagan if he were a Tea Partier. So basically Reagan but without any Keynesian sense.

roachboy · 01-13-2011, 11:32 AM

a little bit of street art commentary from san francisco:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/_lmc/53...ream/lightbox/

and ace, dear, there was no particular commentary about palin as a person in anything that's been said until now in this thread.
it's amazing how the far right has to shift what they're arguing against onto more childish grounds before they can get traction.
it's like some intellectual tic. o wait, that's too smart: let's restate that so that it's fucking idiotic and then we can have at it.
over and over. it's beyond tiresome.

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Except I don't view her as an empty pantsuit. I view her as a descendant (voodoo econonecromancer?) of Reagan. I get the feeling, however, that she will go beyond Reagan. She wants to be like Reagan if he were a Tea Partier. So basically Reagan but without any Keynesian sense.

Man, she is no Reagan. When she speaks to a crowd other then her fan base it usually does not go well. This is why she sticks to that fan base. She makes attempts to increase it but every time she makes a little progress she ends up stepping in it and she ends up loosing more then she gained. I think we'll see poll numbers over the next few months that will show this hurt her... big time.

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

So, ace, you love her carefully manufactured messages?

Yes.

Quote:

I suppose the most recent video was well made. I wonder how much it cost her. I'm also wondering if this is a turning point in the "is she going to run/isn't she going to run" question.

I doubt her intent was to run when she resigned as governor. I assumed she wanted to write her book, go on the speaking tour, then go back to Alaska and live happily ever after. Problem is in her personality. "You" won't leave her alone and she can't walk away from a fight. I understand, because I have the same personality.

Quote:

Are you not concerned about her ability to handle situations on the fly, or her ability to process new information and think about it critically?

Certainly I would be concerned. No one person is perfect, hence you need a good team. Understanding her personality she would need some strong willed people with diplomatic skills on her team. With Obama, I have always said he needed some people with real world business experience on his team. Bush needed Chaney, a pitbull, on his team.

Quote:

Anyway, it's difficult to ignore such a dangerous and misleading voice in American politics.

I disagree. She is a voice of reason in my view. She is a real person who understands dealing with issues that normal people confront daily. She is not a belt way insider, she is not an academic, she is not a "blue blood" - she is so refreshing to listen to because she is a reflection of real people.

Quote:

Not that it matters. Ignoring her won't change much.

You finally get it.

Quote:

If anything, she'll sell that as "the elite's indifference/apathy regarding the problems facing America." She might not be the best debater, but she certainly knows how to push the conservative populist rhetoric.

You almost show that you get it here. It is not rhetoric. With Palin and those of us who support her, we take these issues very seriously. As I often say regarding Obama and why I don't understand him is that his words have no meaning and are not connected to his actions. Liberals live in a world of rhetoric, I don't.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

We don't want her to go away. We want her to stay in the forefront so that maybe she'll run for President in 2012

Careful of what you wish for. Palin is a winner. I would never bet against her.

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

For the record I do not hate Palin. I understand she's a mother, a wife, someones daughter. She has kids I'm sure they love their mother, as they should. I do not like her public persona, not even sure if she buys all the BS she's shoveling. I think much of what she says is very uneducated and ill advised and misinformed. I also think much of what she says hurts the country way more then it helps. But I would feel bad if someone decided to preform an act of violence towards her or family. That would likely hurt the country more then anything she's done.. so far.

I agree with Derwood, right now I'm hoping she runs in 2012. But only because I believe the vast majority of US voters do not buy her line of BS.

You repeat a narrative regarding being uneducated, ill advised and misinformed that is inconsistent with her actual accomplishments. How do you reconcile this? You can't, and you never ask the pundits you revere to do it.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

She's got the folks behind her that will ignore most of her mistakes and focus any, however slight, mistake the other side makes.

I look at the big picture. I will ignore mistakes of little significance - as long as she is on the right side of the major issues.

Quote:

Really it's the same people that stood by Bush regardless of how poorly he preformed.

After 9/11, it was one issue - national security. I supported the war in Iraq and the way he executed the war. When he ran for re-election, he said he would "stay the course" - that is what I wanted. Issues like Gitmo, wiretaps, the Plame matter were of little significance to me. I did not care that he was not a great speech maker. You suggest that trivial matters is how you would measure a leader - I find that problematic.

Quote:

If you believe she did this because she has some special talent then maybe you believe William Hung became a household name because he sang "She bang" so well.

Who is William Hung?

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 11:55 AM

How do you know what I except of people I do respect?

Palin, just like Bush used to, opens her mouth and stupid comments flow. Everything from claiming Putin was invading US air space in Alaska to claiming we need to stick with our North Korean allies. Every politician makes gaffs, everyone really make missteps in their speaking. But I truly believe Palin is clueless on a lot of issues. Her answers are just too far out there, too constant to simply be mistakes.

You want to support her, great. Count me out.

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Except I don't view her as an empty pantsuit. I view her as a descendant (voodoo econonecromancer?) of Reagan.

So, is your narrative that she is some kind of evil genius who can fake her way into the WH?

Quote:

I get the feeling, however, that she will go beyond Reagan. She wants to be like Reagan if he were a Tea Partier. So basically Reagan but without any Keynesian sense.

Please, I hope she has no Keynesian sense. It hasn't been working to well for our economy under Obama.

Tully Mars · 01-13-2011, 11:59 AM

William Hung is the singing equivalent of Palin the politican.

I'm not going to go around and around with you Ace. I know where you stand and you know where I stand. Let's leave it at that, ok?

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

a little bit of street art commentary from san francisco:

enrage them with fear | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

and ace, dear, there was no particular commentary about palin as a person in anything that's been said until now in this thread.
it's amazing how the far right has to shift what they're arguing against onto more childish grounds before they can get traction.
it's like some intellectual tic. o wait, that's too smart: let's restate that so that it's fucking idiotic and then we can have at it.
over and over. it's beyond tiresome.

Nice tone...bet you predicted some kind of retort...yet all of this is beyond tiresome...mmmmmm...what is the common definition of insanity?

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

How do you know what I except of people I do respect?

We have a history here, I read what you write.

Quote:

But I truly believe Palin is clueless on a lot of issues.

Let get real for a moment. Is there any human on this planet who is an expert on every issue? No. Are there some issues where everyone is clueless, even the people you respect the most? Yes. So what are you really saying? Nothing. Again you are just repeating a narrative - one that you have never challenged. I simply suggest that you actively question what you hear.

Baraka_Guru · 01-13-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I disagree. She is a voice of reason in my view. She is a real person who understands dealing with issues that normal people confront daily. She is not a belt way insider, she is not an academic, she is not a "blue blood" - she is so refreshing to listen to because she is a reflection of real people.

A voice of reason? Her modus operandi is banking on emotions. A real person who understands dealing with issues that normal people confront daily? You mean like not having access to health care? Does she support the PPACA or was she more about the single-payer/public option?

Quote:

You finally get it.

Finally? I always understood this.

Quote:

You almost show that you get it here. It is not rhetoric. With Palin and those of us who support her, we take these issues very seriously.

It's not rhetoric? Are you saying that Palin is generally sincere in all her communications to the public?

Quote:

As I often say regarding Obama and why I don't understand him is that his words have no meaning and are not connected to his actions.

How so? Obama has kept more promises than he's broken.

Quote:

Liberals live in a world of rhetoric, I don't.

Your posting history begs to differ. And all politicians tend to live in a world of rhetoric, at least publicly. The issue isn't whether there is rhetoric, the issue is the methods and themes of the rhetoric, as is the goal. I think Palin's goals are, more often than not, to impassion people, not inform them.

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

William Hung is the singing equivalent of Palin the politican.

If he were the equivalent, people would be talking about him. I hear people talking about Lady GaGa or Justin Beaver-I don't really follow current pop music those are the only two I know. Oh, there is that rapper who said Bush hates black people - South Park did a really funny show involving him - I guess he thinks he is a genius but is really somewhat mentally challenged.

Quote:

I'm not going to go around and around with you Ace. I know where you stand and you know where I stand. Let's leave it at that, ok?

No, you leave it. Like I said if the tone is to change, it is your move.

Baraka_Guru · 01-13-2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

So, is your narrative that she is some kind of evil genius who can fake her way into the WH?

No, I think she's trying to evoke Reagan. She wants to return to Reaganomics. If she runs for president, this will be her theme and focus.

Quote:

Please, I hope she has no Keynesian sense. It hasn't been working to well for our economy under Obama.

How do you know? It's quite possible it has pulled you out of oblivion.

roachboy · 01-13-2011, 12:18 PM

even some more rational conservatives are critical of palin's tightly stage-managed narcissism:

Christie says Palin needs to let loose – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

here's another compendium of negative reactions to yesterday's video instance of tightly stage-managed paliny narcissism:

Sarah Palin Says Media Guilty of ?Blood Libel?: Why Her Speech Was Off-Key - The Daily Beast

and this is more or less the statement you saw everywhere this morning:

Barack Obama takes opportunity Sarah Palin missed - Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com

the sort of things ace thinks excellent about sarah palin are among the many things that will prevent her from ever becoming president.

but i hope she keeps talking and talking.
she damages the right.
i like things that damage the right.

aceventura3 · 01-13-2011, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

A voice of reason? Her modus operandi is banking on emotions.

Great leaders know how to stir emotion. Emotion is a wonderful thing, you seem to suggest that it is not???

Quote:

A real person who understands dealing with issues that normal people confront daily? You mean like not having access to health care? Does she support the PPACA or was she more about the single-payer/public option?

Without getting into a healthcare debate here - in general are you suggesting that there is only one way to solve problems?

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Finally? I always understood this.

That was not made clear to me.

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It's not rhetoric? Are you saying that Palin is generally sincere in all her communications to the public?

Yes.

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How so? Obama has kept more promises than he's broken.

Like changing the tone in Washington? I don't keep a tick list of his promises, I measure a leader on a small number of big things. We are at war, that issue is number one - his leadership is lacking. The economy is suffering and he is not showing leadership. Spending is out of control and he has made it worse.

Quote:

Your posting history begs to differ. And all politicians tend to live in a world of rhetoric, at least publicly. The issue isn't whether there is rhetoric, the issue is the methods and themes of the rhetoric, as is the goal. I think Palin's goals are, more often than not, to impassion people, not inform them.

I can agree with that. What is it that you think is in her current job description?

It is only through great passion can people change the world. Historically, great leaders stir passion. But, passion isn't your issue is it? Isn't your fear that she stirs passion in a direction counter to your world views? Isn't that why so many liberals fear Palin? Isn't that what the whole tone debate is all about?

---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

No, I think she's trying to evoke Reagan. She wants to return to Reaganomics. If she runs for president, this will be her theme and focus.

Yes, that is what she says...yes, that is why, in part, I support her...is this a revelation?

Quote:

How do you know? It's quite possible it has pulled you out of oblivion.

An oblivion created in his own mind.

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

even some more rational conservatives are critical of palin's tightly stage-managed narcissism:

I have already said Palin goes beyond simple conservatism. I could careless what weak kneed people think. And, if strong kneed people give constructive input in a respectful manner it will be received with respect.

roachboy · 01-13-2011, 12:36 PM

strong-kneed people? what?

right, people who see the world in simple-minded terms and tell you that your simple-mindedness is ok too. people like this:

The 'new' rhetoric of Islamophobia - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

Baraka_Guru · 01-13-2011, 12:46 PM

ace, I said she banks on emotions. Emotions play a role in everything, but in her case they are the focus. The empower her, embolden her. They make her world go 'round.

Maybe voodoo economics will bring on a rising tide that lifts all boats and all you wonderful Americans will be able to afford the best health care system in the world. You know, instead of it being the best thing on one hand and an embarrassment on the other.

However, I hope the Giffordses can afford it right now.

roachboy · 01-13-2011, 12:56 PM

by the way, not that it matters i suppose, but christina green's funeral was today:

Services held for youngest victim of Arizona mass shootings - CNN.com

so everything is not, apparently, about sarah palin. how about that?

and there were riots in tunisia today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/wo...ef=global-home
the president, who's been in power since 1987, announced he's not going to seek "re-election" in 2014 and also that prices on staple products were going to be controlled and lowered. because people were rioting over the effects of neo-liberal policies, you see. you know, the way they float all boats by helping the poor starve.

meanwhile, in another example of upside-down world thinking, laurent gbagbo still won't step down as president of the ivory coast. last week, he was trying to blame the united nations for genocide by noting how they keep showing up where they happen. today, the un was attacked in abidjan:

Côte d'Ivoire : les forces de l'ONU attaquées par le camp Gbagbo - LeMonde.fr

but i'm sure there's no connection between the rhetoric of violence and what people do. why it wouldn't be fair to say that.

Willravel · 01-13-2011, 01:46 PM

BOOM! Just wanted to break this up for a second.

I took a bit of a breather from this because I was getting stuck in it.

Jared is responsible for his own actions. Despite whatever instabilities he may or may not have, he brought a gun to a political event intending to kill people, and that's what he did. Sarah Palin isn't responsible for it, President Obama isn't responsible for it, and Ron Paul isn't responsible for it. Like virtually every other political assassination in America's history, this was the act of an individual operating for apparent reasons which are basically divorced from reality. That doesn't mean his actions weren't political, they were, or that his actions are divorced in every way from the discourse, but here we are.

If any discussion aside from sharing our despair and frustration with the tragedy should be brought up, perhaps it should be questions of gun control as pertaining specifically to mental illness. There may be something constructive to come from that discussion if we don't let entrenched partisan bullshit end the debate before it begins.

The issue of murderous discourse coming from the right's disingenuous response to being out of power probably should have it's own thread. I'll be starting that thread in a moment.

filtherton · 01-13-2011, 02:06 PM

This conversation reminds me of a magic necktie that I used to own.

It was kind of a matte red type deal with thin blue stripes. I don't remember where I got it, or even if it was mine or whether it was something someone left at my house.

Anyways, it was magic because no matter how many times I untied it, it would always miraculously retie itself.

The thing about double windsor knots: they look like solid and dignified - like maybe they could hold some weight. And any well-tied tie can hold its own when subject to the uncritical, everyday stresses of normal wear and tear. However, one pull in the right place and they completely unravel.

Occasionally, I'd be tidying up around the house and see this tie and want to put it away. I don't know why. It wasn't like the tie was hurting anything, just sitting there, existing. I wasn't even sure if the tie was mine; maybe if I left it out long enough, someone else would take care of it. Nevertheless, nine times out of ten I'd see it, pick it up, bring it to my closet, give it a well placed tug and with the buttery sound of ribbon rubbing against ribbon it would unravel and I'd be ready to put it away. But then all of a sudden, as I moved to place it in my closet, it would be retied. I'm not even sure how it happened, the timescale on which occurred seemed instantaneous. I'd be looking at it the whole time and it was just a flat piece of ribbon one instant and the next it was back in double windsor.

Sometimes I'd sit in front of my closet for hours unraveling the tie over and over again. It didn't always retie into a windsor either. Sometimes it would retie itself into some sort of exotic tangle so convoluted that I would spend hours straightening it out. Even though I knew that untying the tie would be useless because it would retie itself and I'd be back at square one, I was driven by a compulsive need for the tie to be untied, and geez, it was usually so easy to untie, and easy in a way that was also satisfying.

Eventually, after untold hours of therapy, I reached a point where I could mostly just ignore the tie when I saw it. I'd come across it, look it over and imagine how it would feel, the smooth friction of shiny fabric reverberating through my fingertips and up my forearm as I pulled the knot into oblivion. I'd let this thought wash over me for an instant, and then I'd remember how difficult it was to stop untying once I'd gotten started and I'd just keep walking.

pig · 01-13-2011, 08:59 PM

I love you filthy

TheCrimsonGhost · 01-13-2011, 09:32 PM

Mmmm, this is just so sad. Most of all I feel for the parents of that 9 year old girl. I can't imagine I would last very long on this earth if someone took my daughter from me, they are stronger than myself and hopefully can keep that strength. My family will be keeping all these people in our thoughts.

samcol · 01-14-2011, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

BOOM!

watch the rhetoric there. you just incited me to spill my coffee.

but yeah, i think a new thread separating this specific shooting from the rhetoric is fitting.

filtherton · 01-14-2011, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

I love you filthy

That's good to hear, because I am partially powered by pig love!

dksuddeth · 01-14-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

the ultra-right advocates the republic of the late plato, texts like "the laws" which are essentially about a sham democracy behind which a "night commission" runs the show. in the name of security of course. that's why invisibility is so key. like american crossroads or the koch brothers. the financial oligarchy is a big enough tent to encompass both more and less open versions of the charade democracy/republic idea.

I'm sure you also would include the ultra-left as well, since they tend to create a bunch of 'laws' that provide all sorts of exemptions for their favored groups, right?

roachboy · 01-14-2011, 12:53 PM

dk--actually i wouldn't. first because in the united states there's no such thing as a coherent left. it is, like it or not, a single party state with two right wings. and second...well...have you read the plato dialogue? because there's two different discussions that could be had, basically, depending on your answer.

it's worth reading. should give you tea partiers pause, thinking about this kind of power, the one you see, the one you don't...the superficial populism behind which is the same old same old far right deep pockets fascists.

Cynthetiq · 01-14-2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

it is, like it or not, a single party state with two right wings.

Can you explain this please? I'm already confused with left right discussions because it to me isn't very descriptive, this makes even more confusion for me.

roachboy · 01-14-2011, 01:15 PM

relative to any western european country, the united states has never had a political left that formed mass political parties on the order of even the social-democrats, not to speak of places like france and italy which had major communist parties through the 1980s (they're still around but have hemmoraged people and voters)....in france now, the most dynamic left political organization is probably lutte ouvrière, which is a trotskyist organization.

there's simply nothing like that in the states. the democratic party is basically a centrist nationalist party, kind of like the udf in france. mainstream republicans are more or less like the gaullists, the other moderate-conservative political party. and the tea party is a point-for-point correlate of the front national, the neo-fascist party.

class politics have been far more reactionary in the united states than in western europe since the 1950s as well, and this as a simple function of the american choice of sector monopoly for union organizing. western europe has trade union pluralism, which means that there are multiple unions active within the same industrial sector--they've fought with each other for position across the language of radical politics.

it's from that kind of viewpoint---france happens to be the country the politics of which i know best outside the united states.

you have similar perceptions from our canadian comrades though.

this is just a horrifically reactionary country at the level of mass politics....the options are FAR more conservative and one-dimensional than people are.

but you'd never know (and the folk who operate the machinery wouldn't either) because the us has transformed its politics into a type of consumer relation...so there's no feedback loop that's not affirming of one consumer choice or another.

Willravel · 01-14-2011, 01:20 PM

Cynth: He's saying there's a corporatist, authoritarian Republican party and an authoritarian, corporatist Democratic party; Jack Johnson and John Jackson, if you will, each with eerily similar underlying ideologies and each falsely representing a wide spectrum which is actually very narrow. Which is the party of ending wiretapping? Which is the party of campaign finance reform? Which is the party of ending the war in Afghanistan? Which is the party of ending or limiting corporate personhood? Which is the party of raising taxes on the rich? Which is the party of not torturing?

Noam Chomsky once wrote:

Quote:

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.

Anyone outside of this spectrum of acceptable opinion, which exists between the two parties in our two-party system, would appear to be extremist or "fringe".

Baraka_Guru · 01-14-2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

you have similar perceptions from our canadian comrades though.

this is just a horrifically reactionary country at the level of mass politics....the options are FAR more conservative and one-dimensional than people are.

This is an illustration that might help Americans put Canada into perspective:

You will notice the three main political parties in Canada listed: Conservative, Liberal, and NDP. There are also major parties in Quebec that reside left of centre and close to where the NDP resides.

You will see that the Republicans are to the right of Canada's Conservatives, and that the Democrats occupy the centre between the NDP and the Liberals. This is often the case, though I would say that the Liberal party is often more left than the Democrats.

In America, you have no real option anywhere where the NDP resides. The NDP is a social democratic party that has significant influence in Canadian politics both on the provincial and federal levels. A major focus of theirs is on the status of working-class and poor Canadians.

You have two choices in America: the centre (which sometimes leans left but often must capitulate to the right) and the right. There is no real left option.

Tully Mars · 01-14-2011, 04:47 PM

Wait, then how can Obama be a Commie Fascists? There's something wrong with your image.

01-13-2011, 08:58 AM	#242 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	It's kind of surreal in that it's very polarized and at the same time both major parties really do not behave much differently then the other when in power. Both parties are well aware that the % needed to win control is actually very small. 2 maybe 3% can often mean being in control or playing obstructionist (or acting like you're playing obstructionist so folks back home will re-elect you.) __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

01-13-2011, 09:33 AM	#244 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I'm going to bet she sticks with Facebook, Twitter and video messages. Her debate skills are lacking. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

01-13-2011, 10:55 AM	#247 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	So, ace, you love her carefully manufactured messages? I suppose the most recent video was well made. I wonder how much it cost her. I'm also wondering if this is a turning point in the "is she going to run/isn't she going to run" question. Are you not concerned about her ability to handle situations on the fly, or her ability to process new information and think about it critically? Anyway, it's difficult to ignore such a dangerous and misleading voice in American politics. Not that it matters. Ignoring her won't change much. If anything, she'll sell that as "the elite's indifference/apathy regarding the problems facing America." She might not be the best debater, but she certainly knows how to push the conservative populist rhetoric. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

01-13-2011, 10:56 AM	#248 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	We don't want her to go away. We want her to stay in the forefront so that maybe she'll run for President in 2012 __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

01-13-2011, 11:19 AM	#249 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	For the record I do not hate Palin. I understand she's a mother, a wife, someones daughter. She has kids I'm sure they love their mother, as they should. I do not like her public persona, not even sure if she buys all the BS she's shoveling. I think much of what she says is very uneducated and ill advised and misinformed. I also think much of what she says hurts the country way more then it helps. But I would feel bad if someone decided to preform an act of violence towards her or family. That would likely hurt the country more then anything she's done.. so far. I agree with Derwood, right now I'm hoping she runs in 2012. But only because I believe the vast majority of US voters do not buy her line of BS. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

01-13-2011, 08:40 AM	#241 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Now this is what I call good satire. Apparently, this is in Tuscon. I think he should next use an image of the twin towers burning with the tagline "Rush Limbaugh, Flying Right"?

01-13-2011, 11:32 AM	#253 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	a little bit of street art commentary from san francisco: http://www.flickr.com/photos/_lmc/53...ream/lightbox/ and ace, dear, there was no particular commentary about palin as a person in anything that's been said until now in this thread. it's amazing how the far right has to shift what they're arguing against onto more childish grounds before they can get traction. it's like some intellectual tic. o wait, that's too smart: let's restate that so that it's fucking idiotic and then we can have at it. over and over. it's beyond tiresome. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 01-13-2011 at 11:36 AM..

01-13-2011, 11:55 AM	#256 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	How do you know what I except of people I do respect? Palin, just like Bush used to, opens her mouth and stupid comments flow. Everything from claiming Putin was invading US air space in Alaska to claiming we need to stick with our North Korean allies. Every politician makes gaffs, everyone really make missteps in their speaking. But I truly believe Palin is clueless on a lot of issues. Her answers are just too far out there, too constant to simply be mistakes. You want to support her, great. Count me out. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 01-13-2011 at 11:59 AM..

01-13-2011, 11:59 AM	#258 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	William Hung is the singing equivalent of Palin the politican. I'm not going to go around and around with you Ace. I know where you stand and you know where I stand. Let's leave it at that, ok? __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

01-13-2011, 12:18 PM	#263 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	even some more rational conservatives are critical of palin's tightly stage-managed narcissism: Christie says Palin needs to let loose – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs here's another compendium of negative reactions to yesterday's video instance of tightly stage-managed paliny narcissism: Sarah Palin Says Media Guilty of ?Blood Libel?: Why Her Speech Was Off-Key - The Daily Beast and this is more or less the statement you saw everywhere this morning: Barack Obama takes opportunity Sarah Palin missed - Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com the sort of things ace thinks excellent about sarah palin are among the many things that will prevent her from ever becoming president. but i hope she keeps talking and talking. she damages the right. i like things that damage the right. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-13-2011, 12:36 PM	#265 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	strong-kneed people? what? right, people who see the world in simple-minded terms and tell you that your simple-mindedness is ok too. people like this: The 'new' rhetoric of Islamophobia - Opinion - Al Jazeera English __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-13-2011, 12:46 PM	#266 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	ace, I said she banks on emotions. Emotions play a role in everything, but in her case they are the focus. The empower her, embolden her. They make her world go 'round. Maybe voodoo economics will bring on a rising tide that lifts all boats and all you wonderful Americans will be able to afford the best health care system in the world. You know, instead of it being the best thing on one hand and an embarrassment on the other. However, I hope the Giffordses can afford it right now. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 01-13-2011 at 12:51 PM..

01-13-2011, 12:56 PM	#267 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	by the way, not that it matters i suppose, but christina green's funeral was today: Services held for youngest victim of Arizona mass shootings - CNN.com so everything is not, apparently, about sarah palin. how about that? and there were riots in tunisia today: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/wo...ef=global-home the president, who's been in power since 1987, announced he's not going to seek "re-election" in 2014 and also that prices on staple products were going to be controlled and lowered. because people were rioting over the effects of neo-liberal policies, you see. you know, the way they float all boats by helping the poor starve. meanwhile, in another example of upside-down world thinking, laurent gbagbo still won't step down as president of the ivory coast. last week, he was trying to blame the united nations for genocide by noting how they keep showing up where they happen. today, the un was attacked in abidjan: Côte d'Ivoire : les forces de l'ONU attaquées par le camp Gbagbo - LeMonde.fr but i'm sure there's no connection between the rhetoric of violence and what people do. why it wouldn't be fair to say that. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-13-2011, 01:46 PM	#268 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	*BOOM!* Just wanted to break this up for a second. I took a bit of a breather from this because I was getting stuck in it. Jared is responsible for his own actions. Despite whatever instabilities he may or may not have, he brought a gun to a political event intending to kill people, and that's what he did. Sarah Palin isn't responsible for it, President Obama isn't responsible for it, and Ron Paul isn't responsible for it. Like virtually every other political assassination in America's history, this was the act of an individual operating for apparent reasons which are basically divorced from reality. That doesn't mean his actions weren't political, they were, or that his actions are divorced in every way from the discourse, but here we are. If any discussion aside from sharing our despair and frustration with the tragedy should be brought up, perhaps it should be questions of gun control as pertaining specifically to mental illness. There may be something constructive to come from that discussion if we don't let entrenched partisan bullshit end the debate before it begins. The issue of murderous discourse coming from the right's disingenuous response to being out of power probably should have it's own thread. I'll be starting that thread in a moment.

01-13-2011, 02:06 PM	#269 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	This conversation reminds me of a magic necktie that I used to own. It was kind of a matte red type deal with thin blue stripes. I don't remember where I got it, or even if it was mine or whether it was something someone left at my house. Anyways, it was magic because no matter how many times I untied it, it would always miraculously retie itself. The thing about double windsor knots: they look like solid and dignified - like maybe they could hold some weight. And any well-tied tie can hold its own when subject to the uncritical, everyday stresses of normal wear and tear. However, one pull in the right place and they completely unravel. Occasionally, I'd be tidying up around the house and see this tie and want to put it away. I don't know why. It wasn't like the tie was hurting anything, just sitting there, existing. I wasn't even sure if the tie was mine; maybe if I left it out long enough, someone else would take care of it. Nevertheless, nine times out of ten I'd see it, pick it up, bring it to my closet, give it a well placed tug and with the buttery sound of ribbon rubbing against ribbon it would unravel and I'd be ready to put it away. But then all of a sudden, as I moved to place it in my closet, it would be retied. I'm not even sure how it happened, the timescale on which occurred seemed instantaneous. I'd be looking at it the whole time and it was just a flat piece of ribbon one instant and the next it was back in double windsor. Sometimes I'd sit in front of my closet for hours unraveling the tie over and over again. It didn't always retie into a windsor either. Sometimes it would retie itself into some sort of exotic tangle so convoluted that I would spend hours straightening it out. Even though I knew that untying the tie would be useless because it would retie itself and I'd be back at square one, I was driven by a compulsive need for the tie to be untied, and geez, it was usually so easy to untie, and easy in a way that was also satisfying. Eventually, after untold hours of therapy, I reached a point where I could mostly just ignore the tie when I saw it. I'd come across it, look it over and imagine how it would feel, the smooth friction of shiny fabric reverberating through my fingertips and up my forearm as I pulled the knot into oblivion. I'd let this thought wash over me for an instant, and then I'd remember how difficult it was to stop untying once I'd gotten started and I'd just keep walking.

01-13-2011, 08:59 PM	#270 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	I love you filthy __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

01-13-2011, 09:32 PM	#271 (permalink)
TheCrimsonGhost Upright Location: Los Angeles, CA	Mmmm, this is just so sad. Most of all I feel for the parents of that 9 year old girl. I can't imagine I would last very long on this earth if someone took my daughter from me, they are stronger than myself and hopefully can keep that strength. My family will be keeping all these people in our thoughts.

01-14-2011, 12:53 PM	#275 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	dk--actually i wouldn't. first because in the united states there's no such thing as a coherent left. it is, like it or not, a single party state with two right wings. and second...well...have you read the plato dialogue? because there's two different discussions that could be had, basically, depending on your answer. it's worth reading. should give you tea partiers pause, thinking about this kind of power, the one you see, the one you don't...the superficial populism behind which is the same old same old far right deep pockets fascists. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-14-2011, 01:15 PM	#277 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	relative to any western european country, the united states has never had a political left that formed mass political parties on the order of even the social-democrats, not to speak of places like france and italy which had major communist parties through the 1980s (they're still around but have hemmoraged people and voters)....in france now, the most dynamic left political organization is probably lutte ouvrière, which is a trotskyist organization. there's simply nothing like that in the states. the democratic party is basically a centrist nationalist party, kind of like the udf in france. mainstream republicans are more or less like the gaullists, the other moderate-conservative political party. and the tea party is a point-for-point correlate of the front national, the neo-fascist party. class politics have been far more reactionary in the united states than in western europe since the 1950s as well, and this as a simple function of the american choice of sector monopoly for union organizing. western europe has trade union pluralism, which means that there are multiple unions active within the same industrial sector--they've fought with each other for position across the language of radical politics. it's from that kind of viewpoint---france happens to be the country the politics of which i know best outside the united states. you have similar perceptions from our canadian comrades though. this is just a horrifically reactionary country at the level of mass politics....the options are FAR more conservative and one-dimensional than people are. but you'd never know (and the folk who operate the machinery wouldn't either) because the us has transformed its politics into a type of consumer relation...so there's no feedback loop that's not affirming of one consumer choice or another. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-14-2011, 04:47 PM	#280 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Wait, then how can Obama be a Commie Fascists? There's something wrong with your image. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club