monitoring america - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

roachboy · 12-20-2010, 01:54 PM

over the past months, the washington post has published a series of pieces on the development of a vast surveillance system, much of which is new since 9/11/2001. no-one has been mapping the system that makes maps of us; it's consumes enormous amounts of money but there's little if any in the way of accountability. one way of thinking about this is a space of convergence between american the land of illusions of freedom (always a problem under capitalism) and america the empire.

this interactive map/video feature provides a useful and quick overview of what the series is talking about:

Top Secret America: Interactive map | washingtonpost.com

you can search the overall scope of the apparatus by state, region or nationally. a particularly unnerving little feature gives you a representation of the aspects of the surveillance apparatus that is around where you live (by zip code, so depending on where you live)...

here's a new installment that appeared in todays post.
you'll have to subscribe to access it, i think, but it's free.

Monitoring America | washingtonpost.com

this is largely a bush people patronage system that was put into motion across the degrees of manufactured hysteria that followed on 9/11/2010 with the knowledge and consent of both parties.

among other things, the piece details the increasing use of military technologies in the context of domestic "counter-terrorism"----do you think this is a blurring of the line between police and military? do you see it as an aspect of such a blurring?

at this point, because the piece is quite long and pretty stunning when you think about it, i'd like simply to encourage people to read this material and post their reactions to it. perhaps we can bump things in particular directions if a discussion takes hold.

but it'd be nice for a discussion, and this because this series has landed with nary a ripple in the puddle of generalized indifference, one that is even blase about war crimes...

so an initial question: what do you think of this information?
where do you think it indicates that we, as a society, are heading?
do you see this as a reversible trend?
do you think it justified? why or why not?

hiredgun · 01-09-2011, 12:54 PM

Roach: I thought the original 'Top Secret America' articles were a phenomenal piece of reporting, and I am frankly a little astonished that I had no idea they had published more material recently.

There is very, very much information to sift through here in this latest piece. I think some of the charges in the article are fair, others are misguided, and a few make me chuckle as I realize how easy it is for a fusion center to take journalists for a ride. These places are not so slick and shiny as they can appear at first glance.

Let me start with the easy bits: I think the concern over the quality of 'expertise' about terrorism and Islam is easily the most legitimate and worrisome accusation in the piece. This guy is emblematic of the quality of training on 'Islam' available to PD's and fusion centers in the US:

Quote:

"They want to make this world Islamic. The Islamic flag will fly over the White House - not on my watch!" he said. "My job is to wake up the public, and first, the first responders."

It is scary, tragic stuff. A little knowledge, as they say, can be a dangerous thing. The discourse I hear among a lot of cops-turned-intel-analysts reminds me of nothing so much as the Islamophobia of the right-wing blogosphere.

---

I am less impressed by the breathless declaration that 'military technologies' are being brought to bear on hapless civilians. This to me is like crying foul at NASA for conducting research that eventually led to home microwave ovens and Dippin' Dots. We should be debating the individual technologies; the question of whether they were originally developed for a theater of war is irrelevant.

I'm not sure I see a problem with LPR (license plate reader) technology, for example, as described in the article. If my car is on a list of stolen vehicles, I _want_ my local officers' squad cars to detect it when it drives by. I think this is a huge step _up_ from relying on individual beat cops to follow up on a bulletin. Actually I know that there are some much scarier applications of LPR going on than what the article reports, and I wonder why they did not focus on those... (basically, much less targeted, much more 'record all cars everywhere').

I may have to come back to this in the morning...

Craven Morehead · 01-09-2011, 01:23 PM

I put my zip code in and it shows the wrong map. ???

Chicago is huge on surveillance cameras
Chicago's ubiquitous surveillance cameras have one catch: criminals | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | National News

Coincidentally, Chicago's murder rate is the lowest in 45 years. The use of technology is mentioned in this article, but not specifically surveillance cameras.
Chicago murder rate reaches 45-year low, police data show - Chicago Tribune

Willravel · 01-09-2011, 01:24 PM

what do you think of this information?
Like you guys, I've been following this as it develops. What do I think? I'm starting to wonder if this was inevitable; fate, for lack of a more scientific term. When authority is provided power and secrecy, corruption follows. What would a corrupt power with secrecy do to maintain their power? Spy. Spy on dissidents, spy on free-thinkers, and eventually just spy on anyone. They'd excuse it as some threat to this and that, and as a necessary trade of a little freedom for security, which is almost always a lie, and it would grow and grow until priorities were so fucked up that everything collapses or people start fighting back.

where do you think it indicates that we, as a society, are heading?
War. Information war. I can't imagine a realistic playing out of this where the powers that be realize the error of their ways and scale it back of their own free will. It may not happen for a long time, but it seems inevitable. It also won't be a very clean war.

do you see this as a reversible trend?
Not until there's a fundamental and likely terrible shift.

do you think it justified? why or why not?
Of course not. For the longest time I was in fundamental disagreement with voices like those of Chomsky when they argued against government power just as much as they did corporate. I figured that the profit motive (unabashed, open greed) vs. the intended motive to serve the public put government power and corporate power in different places. Now, though, I'm starting to see that formerly distinctive line blur considerably. Any center of power too big is a bad thing. While I still respect certain other countries for managing to keep their shit together better than the United States, I realize now that it's because they aren't world powers on the right level yet to represent enough power. As soon as the United States and China cease to be the most powerful countries on earth, the next class will face the same corruption.

Privacy may die for a while for a lot of people.

Craven Morehead · 01-10-2011, 12:05 PM

reversible trend?

No, not with the results that Chicago is showing (whether they are attributable to security cameras or not, that will be cited). The only way this gets reversed is if it become abused. Actually, let me rephrase that, if abuse is found. It may be abused now for all we know but until it is found it doesn't exist.

dksuddeth · 01-10-2011, 03:53 PM

please. even when it's abused, there are no consequences. look at the oversight hearings on the warrantless wiretaps and security letters in lieu of warrants. hundreds of cases were presented to congress as having violated the rights of americans, nothing done. no admonishment at all.

Willravel · 01-10-2011, 04:20 PM

I wish more conservatives were like you, dk.

dksuddeth · 01-10-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I wish more conservatives were like you, dk.

and I wish more people were Libertarian like me, sadly we don't always get what we want.

roachboy · 01-18-2011, 07:31 PM

FRONTLINE: Are We Safer? - Video | PBS

here's a link to a segment from frontline that's based on the washington post series.
there's a chat with dana priest, one of the main reporters, tomorrow at 11...

boink · 01-20-2011, 12:41 AM

looks like I drive through heavy surveillance to work and miss it on the way home. no surveillance around home or immediate work area..

not sure what to think. I did see that show and yeah...interesting.

overall it bugs me, and I'm shure it'll...err is being abused 24/7 now, somehow, somewhere. but then if it helped find a stolen car I'd think better of it. we have real time video phones just like star trek, this just seems inevitable. how could it not happen eventually ?

roachboy · 01-20-2011, 09:00 AM

well, in some basic ways this metastasis of "security" companies that no-one has track of and no-one can account for in terms of costs and/or contracts and is accountable to no-one and which appears to be involved in almost nothing of any importance in terms of stopping or preventing "terrorism" but which is obvious geared toward watching someone somewhere all justified under the extra-legal "requirements" of this conservative fiction of a "War on Terror" is a perfect example of what conservative policy logic results in. because they have a surreal, ahistorical factually wrong staging of what the state is---they think is a source of irrationality rather than an extension of public control (however indirect)---which is simply a function of most conservatives not understanding the first thing about the social-democratic model of the state except that they oppose it (not worth going into this).

what conservatives want is no fucking accountability for surveillance and other quasi-military operations so long as there's a reasonable hope that these operations would not be directed at them. and why would they be, given that it's conservatives who provide patronage to this entire system, conservatives who endorse its rationale.

12-20-2010, 01:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	monitoring america over the past months, the washington post has published a series of pieces on the development of a vast surveillance system, much of which is new since 9/11/2001. no-one has been mapping the system that makes maps of us; it's consumes enormous amounts of money but there's little if any in the way of accountability. one way of thinking about this is a space of convergence between american the land of illusions of freedom (always a problem under capitalism) and america the empire. this interactive map/video feature provides a useful and quick overview of what the series is talking about: Top Secret America: Interactive map \| washingtonpost.com you can search the overall scope of the apparatus by state, region or nationally. a particularly unnerving little feature gives you a representation of the aspects of the surveillance apparatus that is around where you live (by zip code, so depending on where you live)... here's a new installment that appeared in todays post. you'll have to subscribe to access it, i think, but it's free. Monitoring America \| washingtonpost.com this is largely a bush people patronage system that was put into motion across the degrees of manufactured hysteria that followed on 9/11/2010 with the knowledge and consent of both parties. among other things, the piece details the increasing use of military technologies in the context of domestic "counter-terrorism"----do you think this is a blurring of the line between police and military? do you see it as an aspect of such a blurring? at this point, because the piece is quite long and pretty stunning when you think about it, i'd like simply to encourage people to read this material and post their reactions to it. perhaps we can bump things in particular directions if a discussion takes hold. but it'd be nice for a discussion, and this because this series has landed with nary a ripple in the puddle of generalized indifference, one that is even blase about war crimes... so an initial question: what do you think of this information? where do you think it indicates that we, as a society, are heading? do you see this as a reversible trend? do you think it justified? why or why not? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-10-2011, 03:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	please. even when it's abused, there are no consequences. look at the oversight hearings on the warrantless wiretaps and security letters in lieu of warrants. hundreds of cases were presented to congress as having violated the rights of americans, nothing done. no admonishment at all. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

01-18-2011, 07:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	FRONTLINE: Are We Safer? - Video \| PBS here's a link to a segment from frontline that's based on the washington post series. there's a chat with dana priest, one of the main reporters, tomorrow at 11... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-20-2011, 12:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	looks like I drive through heavy surveillance to work and miss it on the way home. no surveillance around home or immediate work area.. not sure what to think. I did see that show and yeah...interesting. overall it bugs me, and I'm shure it'll...err is being abused 24/7 now, somehow, somewhere. but then if it helped find a stolen car I'd think better of it. we have real time video phones just like star trek, this just seems inevitable. how could it not happen eventually ? __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

01-20-2011, 09:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, in some basic ways this metastasis of "security" companies that no-one has track of and no-one can account for in terms of costs and/or contracts and is accountable to no-one and which appears to be involved in almost nothing of any importance in terms of stopping or preventing "terrorism" but which is obvious geared toward watching someone somewhere all justified under the extra-legal "requirements" of this conservative fiction of a "War on Terror" is a perfect example of what conservative policy logic results in. because they have a surreal, ahistorical factually wrong staging of what the state is---they think is a source of irrationality rather than an extension of public control (however indirect)---which is simply a function of most conservatives not understanding the first thing about the social-democratic model of the state except that they oppose it (not worth going into this). what conservatives want is no fucking accountability for surveillance and other quasi-military operations so long as there's a reasonable hope that these operations would not be directed at them. and why would they be, given that it's conservatives who provide patronage to this entire system, conservatives who endorse its rationale. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-09-2011, 01:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	I put my zip code in and it shows the wrong map. ??? Chicago is huge on surveillance cameras Chicago's ubiquitous surveillance cameras have one catch: criminals \| News for Dallas, Texas \| Dallas Morning News \| Headline \| National News Coincidentally, Chicago's murder rate is the lowest in 45 years. The use of technology is mentioned in this article, but not specifically surveillance cameras. Chicago murder rate reaches 45-year low, police data show - Chicago Tribune

01-09-2011, 01:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	what do you think of this information? Like you guys, I've been following this as it develops. What do I think? I'm starting to wonder if this was inevitable; fate, for lack of a more scientific term. When authority is provided power and secrecy, corruption follows. What would a corrupt power with secrecy do to maintain their power? Spy. Spy on dissidents, spy on free-thinkers, and eventually just spy on anyone. They'd excuse it as some threat to this and that, and as a necessary trade of a little freedom for security, which is almost always a lie, and it would grow and grow until priorities were so fucked up that everything collapses or people start fighting back. where do you think it indicates that we, as a society, are heading? War. Information war. I can't imagine a realistic playing out of this where the powers that be realize the error of their ways and scale it back of their own free will. It may not happen for a long time, but it seems inevitable. It also won't be a very clean war. do you see this as a reversible trend? Not until there's a fundamental and likely terrible shift. do you think it justified? why or why not? Of course not. For the longest time I was in fundamental disagreement with voices like those of Chomsky when they argued against government power just as much as they did corporate. I figured that the profit motive (unabashed, open greed) vs. the intended motive to serve the public put government power and corporate power in different places. Now, though, I'm starting to see that formerly distinctive line blur considerably. Any center of power too big is a bad thing. While I still respect certain other countries for managing to keep their shit together better than the United States, I realize now that it's because they aren't world powers on the right level yet to represent enough power. As soon as the United States and China cease to be the most powerful countries on earth, the next class will face the same corruption. Privacy may die for a while for a lot of people.

01-10-2011, 12:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	reversible trend? No, not with the results that Chicago is showing (whether they are attributable to security cameras or not, that will be cited). The only way this gets reversed is if it become abused. Actually, let me rephrase that, if abuse is found. It may be abused now for all we know but until it is found it doesn't exist.

01-10-2011, 04:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I wish more conservatives were like you, dk.