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Old 10-30-2010, 05:00 PM   #121 (permalink)
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I never called you a bigot. Not that it would surprise me if you are.

I said you say things that are deliberately provocative in order to get people to respond to your posts. You see a lot of that kind of posting on politics boards. Because politics boards are also full of frothy-mouthed liberals who love responding to them. It's a symbiotic thing. Doesn't really fit this format, though.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:07 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:32 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by matthew330 View Post
And I never said one muslim man is going to get me nervous. If I see multiple men traveling together who all (let me use Juans words) are first and foremost identifying themselves as Muslim - I will be more aware of their behavior than granny two seats up. If you think that's bigoted, you're idiotic. I'm done pointing out the obvious - you'll never get it because your much too concerned with proving to yourselves I'm bigoted.

Painful...oh so painful.
But that doesn't even make sense. You're just being foolish if you think the next airplane bomber is going to be garishly playing the "Check me out, I'm a devout muslim" card. That would be idiotic. Chances are, if a passenger is "muslim in appearance" that person will have already received 5 times as much scrutiny as you or I would ever receive at an airport.

I don't think you're a bigot. You're just someone who's been goaded by fear into embracing irrational suspicions of his fellow countrymen. It's pretty standard stuff, though if you'd like you can write me off as a liberal so you don't have to think about what I wrote.
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Old 10-31-2010, 05:50 AM   #124 (permalink)
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I never said I thought the next airplane bomber was going to be a devout Muslim. Never.

I actually like MixedMedia's metaphor, suggesting that what I'm saying is like telling children the people they need to worry about the most are old men in trenchcoats.

The way I see it, it's more like you all telling little children: It's more like you all are saying to little children: Of course you should go say hi to old men in trenchcoats when my back is turned. If they were REALLY child molesters, they would never dress like that.

Let's tally: twice a bigot, twice a fool/foolish, and the little supercanadians meltdown. I'm so provocative.
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Old 10-31-2010, 05:55 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by matthew330 View Post
OH looky, another liberal saying the exact same freaking thing, which happens to be completely inaccurate.
You're a bigot Jay. So there, go home now (spongebob's on!)



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No name calling


Goes for everyone in this thread, not just Matthew.

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Old 10-31-2010, 06:33 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by matthew330 View Post
I never said I thought the next airplane bomber was going to be a devout Muslim. Never.

I actually like MixedMedia's metaphor, suggesting that what I'm saying is like telling children the people they need to worry about the most are old men in trenchcoats.

The way I see it, it's more like you all telling little children: It's more like you all are saying to little children: Of course you should go say hi to old men in trenchcoats when my back is turned. If they were REALLY child molesters, they would never dress like that.

Let's tally: twice a bigot, twice a fool/foolish, and the little supercanadians meltdown. I'm so provocative.
The secret to taking someone else's words and twisting them around to make your argument is coming up with something that actually makes some sense.
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:26 AM   #127 (permalink)
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When you said I didn't make sense, then read what I said, but what you said made no sense. ZERO. then twisting of words when you said it, and tried to say that I said it the children in trenchcoats. PERIOD.

you can go home now too MixedMedia.

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------

..............and I wouldn't have gone back and edited my post and deleted the extra line, when you pointed it out. It wouldn't have made any sense to people reading through, and I'm not a pussy like that.
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:09 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Old 10-31-2010, 12:34 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by matthew330 View Post
When you said I didn't make sense, then read what I said, but what you said made no sense. ZERO. then twisting of words when you said it, and tried to say that I said it the children in trenchcoats. PERIOD.

you can go home now too MixedMedia.

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------

..............and I wouldn't have gone back and edited my post and deleted the extra line, when you pointed it out. It wouldn't have made any sense to people reading through, and I'm not a pussy like that.
I wasn't referring to the extra line. I understood what you wrote, just saying that it didn't make sense. I sincerely hope you don't have any children because anyone with any goddamn sense knows that you can't profile a potential threat by their age or the clothes they are wearing.

I can see where it would be helpful to you for me to go home, though.
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Old 10-31-2010, 01:44 PM   #130 (permalink)
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what is all this 'you can go home now' and 'shutting you down' bs ?
is that any way to have a conversation ? sounds more like a schoolyard bully talk.

people can't come to these conversations with an " I'm right, your wrong" attitude or it just serves no purpose at all. for either side.
I doubt Atta was wearing 'traditional Muslim garb" when he walked up to the ticket agent, but I'll will agree he was probably giving off some bad vibes (for lack of any better terminology) so, sometimes you gotta trust your gut. in his mug shots he did look like a scary dude. I will give you that. but I doubt the ticket agent had any information or the authority to do anything about it.

since we're wandering off to sex offenders, the last 4-5 announcements on my local news have been profiled as mid 20's white males with knit hats.
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Old 10-31-2010, 01:59 PM   #131 (permalink)
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I think matt needs a hug, he lives in a very scary world that forces him to act tough and premptively dismiss people because he's afraid they might hurt him.
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Old 10-31-2010, 06:54 PM   #132 (permalink)
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if you think there's a dialogue to be had, initiate one.
I used to. Then posts like #131 and - for that matter - #40 became too common for my tastes. And I'd notice an implicit divide between the trolls and the respected trolls - those who got called on bad posts and those who didn't. It's very conducive to eschewing paragraphs of thoughtful elaboration for pithy 'hit-and-runs', since they're increasingly likely to get just about the same quality of response.

Add in blatant isolated incidents like World's King blatantly - and stupidly - flaming a better poster and apparently getting away with it, and you have my theory for cyn's thread about why TFP is in decline.

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btw passive-aggressive isn't very conducive to dialogue either. fyi.
I don't often see myself exhibiting this posting style elsewhere. I guess it's contagious.
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Old 10-31-2010, 07:27 PM   #133 (permalink)
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boink to answer your question:

what is all this 'you can go home now' and 'shutting you down' bs ?
is that any way to have a conversation ? sounds more like a schoolyard bully talk.


MixedMedia told me what I said didn't make sense. Didn't say why - just that my post didn't make sense. Where exactly did you want me to take that conversation?
Right - nowhere (and ironically from someone who was trying to instruct me on the "format" that is acceptable here).

So if that wtas he dialogue she wanted to have, rather than try to guess why she thinks my point didn't make sense and argue nothing, I told her she can pick up her toys and go home.

That simple.
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Old 10-31-2010, 08:34 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Last edited by silent_jay; 10-31-2010 at 09:44 PM.. Reason: can't be bothered to contribute to the clusterfuck
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:33 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Sorry I didn't spell it out.

There is no correlation that I can see between being watchful of 'Muslimy' people on planes and telling children to say hi to old men in trenchcoats 'behind your back.' Plus, it still assumes that these people are inherently more dangerous than others because of the way they look, in particular due to the clothes they are wearing. I really am sorry to keep using the word 'fool' to describe these things, but it is foolish. If anything a person could open themselves up to more danger by not being observant of real threats.

I am a watchful person. I don't walk around in a blissful state trustful of everyone I see. Sometimes I encounter people that I (on an instinctive level) don't want to be around. But I haven't found that be a racial or ethnically specific phenomena. If you allow paranoia or irrational fear to replace your own instincts you only open yourself up to 1) unwarranted stress and 2) like I said, missing real threats.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:49 AM   #136 (permalink)
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you know what, ace? i'm done with you here.
Donate $100 to a charity for every time you have written that.


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you're defending a position the sole function of which is to undercut (in some imaginary world) the utter stupidity of what juan williams said. i find it beyond bizarre that you've gone as far as you've gone in an apparent quest to shuck any responsibility for stupidity on williams' part and, seemingly, on your own.
There are a number of people who are not affiliated with Fox News and who are liberal who have supported Williams also - what do you say to them?

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btw i take this sort of discussion really personally.
i've laid out in the past some of the reasons why.
i am not interested in your pathetic attempts to normalize bigotry.
And how do you feel about devote evangelical Christians in Congress? Is it your preference that they not be in Congress? Why? Are you a bigot?


Quote:
nor am i interested in normalizing routine conservative racism.
Is there a difference between conservative racism and liberal (or whatever the opposite of conservativism is in your mind) racism?

Quote:
i would far prefer to marginalize it. i would prefer to use it to push conservative back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under.
So, are you saying you want all conservatives to crawl under some figurative rock? Is this a form of bigotry? Are all conservatives bad people in your mind? Why?

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and i couldn't care less about "converting" people like you.
You give yourself far too much credit. With your approach you could not possibly convert or persuade me of anything.

Quote:
so far as i am concerned, if you are amenable to being "converted" to thinking like a rational being, i am not the person to undertake the task.
i dont care about "dialogue" with bigots.
call it a limitation.
I hope you are prepared for the future violence that will follow from such a narrow view of open dialog.

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
A question: Are you attempting to rationalize wholesale Islamophobia?
Why not address what is obvious about this issue?

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
Fact is, you don't whether anyone regardless of how they look is going to be a danger to you. It doesn't take a particularly enlightened person to realize that not only Arabs and black guys are killing people in this world. Yet, apparently it takes an inordinate amount of rational thought to keep oneself from slipping into a paranoid fit whenever they see an 'Arab looking all Muslimy' on a plane.

I suggest that any who feels that way not go back and re-watch those airport security cameras of the 9/11 hijackers before they got onto the planes. Then you might find yourself freaking out over all the Hispanic or vaguely Mediterranean-looking guys with button-down collars and chinos, too. Unless, of course, you are convinced that you can tell a Greek from an Italian from a Puerto Rican from a Spaniard from a Lebanese from a Pakistani, etc., etc., etc. with absolute certainty. Maybe, to be safe, you should just stay home. Board yourselves in even.
So, what information do you use from your environment in order to minimize controllable risks?

Once I went to Bingo with my grandmother, I observed my environment and came to one conclusion regarding risk. The next night I went to a Club and came to a different conclusion regarding risk. I used information from my environment, including my observations of people - what do you do? Do you just go through life thinking everything is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10? Does it make you a bigot if your number goes up to 9 in a certain situation?

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------

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your saying your gonna spot the next shoe bomber ?
Yes. If he/she is within my sight and they start acting abnormally, I am going to spot them - and act. Are you suggesting that you won't? Are you saying that you are not going to pay attention? Perhaps I don't understand the question.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:51 AM   #137 (permalink)
 
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first off i apologize for going that far in the post you responded to here, ace.

i do in fact take this particular line of conversation quite personally and sometimes the fact that parallel attitudes have had and continue to have unsettling consequences for people i am personally close to gets the better of me.

plus there's a degree of transferred frustration--i'd like to be able to wave a wand and vaporize what i see as a residual racism that derives from the hysteria that surrounded the "hostage crisis" in iran, so is really an element of the neo-conservative origin mythology, given that it was that hostage crisis and its packaging that i think explains why ronald reagan was elected more than any other single thing. but there seems to be no way of doing that, and sometimes that becomes frustrating and sometimes that frustration gets the better of me. that's what happened here.

when the thread started, it was about juan williams getting fired and the way the paliny ultra-right was trying to frame it as yet another instance of conservative victimization by setting williams up as someone who Stood Up to Political Correctness and Spoke About Reality. which i found funny, really. are you serious? was my initial reaction.

then it got a degree of traction and the positions shifted in the direction of people who support fox news--say---or who support the positions outlined by o-reilly et al, and so who are amenable to the ongoing creation of us/them stuff and the routine verbal abuse of muslims that are of a piece with it now try to defend not what williams said but the worldview that may have allowed for that to be said.

and that's where we are now. i don't see this getting anywhere, either. i think on this the differences in assumptions/viewpoints are simply too basic to allow for any motion.

but (again) this isn't a conversation about juan williams any more. it's about whether it's ok to hold what amount to racist views/bigoted views---or (another way) it's about one's relation to the abstraction "the war on terror" and of that abstraction to the construction of the Enemy that comes with it. folk who are suspicious of it vs. those who aren't. and it seems that once again this lands us back in the strange little world of identity politics.

yes is no up is down slavery is freedom war is peace.

sometimes discussions are like a chess game. you can play them out to the bitter end and end up with a king and a pawn chasing around another king and a pawn. or you can suss out the strategic situation and see from that what's likely to happen. better players will opt out of a game well before the bitter end if the strategic situation makes the outcome uninteresting by making it inevitable. sometimes i think we collectively play threads like 6th graders at chess. i think we'd be well served by working out a better way to end games.
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:07 AM   #138 (permalink)
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but (again) this isn't a conversation about juan williams any more. it's about whether it's ok to hold what amount to racist views/bigoted views---or (another way) it's about one's relation to the abstraction "the war on terror" and of that abstraction to the construction of the Enemy that comes with it. folk who are suspicious of it vs. those who aren't. and it seems that once again this lands us back in the strange little world of identity politics.
Who said it is o.k.? First, some people are acknowledging fears, including Williams. Some see those fears as irrational and some have yet to come to that conclusion. There has been support of the use of "free speech" to air these issues without being called a bigot or a racist or arrested by the "PC" police. And, I firmly believe an open and honest dialog is important to get beyond irrational fears including the irrational fear of peace loving Muslims.
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:35 AM   #139 (permalink)
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So, what information do you use from your environment in order to minimize controllable risks?

Once I went to Bingo with my grandmother, I observed my environment and came to one conclusion regarding risk. The next night I went to a Club and came to a different conclusion regarding risk. I used information from my environment, including my observations of people - what do you do? Do you just go through life thinking everything is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10? Does it make you a bigot if your number goes up to 9 in a certain situation?
What part of anything I said infers that I don't adapt to my environment while gauging threat risks? I've never thought about how I gauge threats in my environment, but I think it is based on equal parts of observation of an individual's behavior and instinct. But I sense you are trying to cloud the issue.

The basic question is and let's not forget it:
Do you suspect someone to be more of a threat to you on a plane because they are 'dressed like a Muslim'? I do not. If you do, then fine. But whether you like it or not, you are subscribing to an -ism by basing your fears on who or 'what' a person is rather than how they are behaving. It's a pretty classic definition.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:23 AM   #140 (permalink)
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What part of anything I said infers that I don't adapt to my environment while gauging threat risks?
Throughout this thread I read that an irrational fear is unacceptable, I agree, but there is not agreement on how to deal with it. On the opposite end of the spectrum, irrational ignorance is also unacceptable in my view. There is a space where we can acknowledge and understand real threats without being irrational on either end. I can think of many circumstances where it would be reasonable and not be irrational to have fear of Muslims in traditional attire on a plane. Your position does not seem to allow for this.

Quote:
I've never thought about how I gauge threats in my environment, but I think it is based on equal parts of observation of an individual's behavior and instinct. But I sense you are trying to cloud the issue.
I am trying to illustrate what is a human response.
I am trying to illustrate the importance of acknowledging fear.
I am trying to illustrate the potential consequences of the pretense of not having fear. On this last point, I grew up in a culture where you would never under any circumstance acknowledge fear. If you did, you risked being ostracized at best or even worse by others. Being an adult and looking back on it, it is clear to see how this culture of "no fear" lead to bad behavior, and poor decisions. Ironically, it usually took one courageous person to say he feared, for others to say, yes, I fear also - this lead to rational behavior. Find a 12 year-old boy who looks you in the eye and says, "I ain't afraid of anything", and you have found an irrational person prone to poor decisions and potential violence. If we could look into the eye of this nation and the response is, "I ain't afraid of anything", we have a problem. If the response is - "I am afraid of....Muslims on a plane" we have a starting point to resolve the problem.

Quote:
The basic question is and let's not forget it:
Do you suspect someone to be more of a threat to you on a plane because they are 'dressed like a Muslim'? I do not.
Neither do I. How they are dressed has nothing to do with my fear. My fear is based on a declared war, expressed threats, and past activities. Others may have different fears. If I had a forum to express my biggest concern with the broader Muslim community, I would let them know that I am disappointed by the lack of action within their community to end or help end acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. I often do not feel we are on the same team. That is my biggest fear in this context. Do you have any fears in this context?
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:14 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Why should random individuals of the muslim faith be held accountable for your epistemic failures, ace?
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:27 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Why should random individuals of the muslim faith be held accountable for your epistemic failures, ace?
Look at it this way - most wolves could careless about me, try to avoid me and most likely do me no harm. However, they have the capacity to do me harm and if I don't respect that capacity, I would be a fool. On the other-hand my wife has a friend who has a couple of bishon frises...



when I visit, I have "no fear".
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:29 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Restating your epistemic failure isn't an answer to my question.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:54 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Yeah, good question. After the Oklahoma City bombing I don't remember a bunch of people running around freaked out at every thin white guy they saw.
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:13 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Restating your epistemic failure isn't an answer to my question.
I will state again, if I had a forum to communicate to the general Muslim population my concern primarily is with, in many cases, what I would categorize as passive approval-the end result being the small number of extremists defining the entire population. I thought my example artfully illustrated that.

No doubt there have been many in the fight against terrorist acts carried out in the name of the religion, but then there are these types of reports:


Quote:
Students at Sanaa University protested on Sunday against the arrest of a colleague suspected of involvement in sending explosive packages bound for the United States.

The woman, believed to be in her 20s, was arrested by Yemeni authorities late on Saturday. Officials said she had been traced through a telephone number she had left with a cargo company.

"The Sanaa University student union ... believes the girl is innocent and has been wronged. We are calling for her release," said union president, Ridhwan Massoud, 30.

Dozens of students staged a sit-in in the courtyard of Sanaa University’s engineering faculty. Yemeni officials had said the woman was studying medicine, but students at the university said she was in her final year of a computer science degree.

Yahya al-Hammadi, a 21-year-old engineering student, told Reuters she had attended the faculty until the previous day.

"She was not known to be active in anything, not politics nor religion," Hammadi said. "I am totally perplexed by this."

The woman was the first person to be arrested after two air freight packages containing bombs — both sent from Yemen and addressed to synagogues in Chicago — were intercepted in Britain and Dubai last week.

Yemeni students protest parcel bomb arrest

I don't know if the arrest was proper or not, time will tell - but my outrage is targeted to those who made the attempt, not those trying to find out who was involved. Are we on the same team? Do we have the same goals? I don't know, we need a dialog to gain a better understanding in my opinion. Just as some may have an irrational fear of Muslims, there are Muslims who have an irrational fear of us.

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------

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Yeah, good question. After the Oklahoma City bombing I don't remember a bunch of people running around freaked out at every thin white guy they saw.
I did see a nation outraged. I did see a nation seeking swift justice. I did see a nation morn the death of babies. I did see people of all ideologies and faiths denounce the use of violence. It was virtually unanimous. Didn't you see that?
Was there any instance of support for this bombing, anywhere? Even from the most extreme? Can you share a source, if there was one?
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:39 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aceventura3 View Post
I did see a nation outraged. I did see a nation seeking swift justice. I did see a nation morn the death of babies. I did see people of all ideologies and faiths denounce the use of violence. It was virtually unanimous. Didn't you see that?
Was there any instance of support for this bombing, anywhere? Even from the most extreme? Can you share a source, if there was one?
Did I ask if the nation wasn't outraged? Did I ask if the nation did not morn? Did I state there was support for this act or the ideologies behind it? Though to be honest there was some support among the militia groups in this country. But that was never my point.


I asked, basically, why weren't "people freaked out at every thin white guy they saw." I mean if you're going to go around supporting profiling why wasn't that profile profiled?
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:48 PM   #147 (permalink)
 
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:22 PM   #148 (permalink)
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It seems impossible to pin you down to a single opinion on this matter, ace.

To me you say that irrational fears need to be expressed so that they can be dispelled. Now you seem to be rationalizing them.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:25 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aceventura3 View Post
I will state again, if I had a forum to communicate to the general Muslim population my concern primarily is with, in many cases, what I would categorize as passive approval-the end result being the small number of extremists defining the entire population. I thought my example artfully illustrated that.
So your answer to my question is "If only I could tell those muslims to stop letting me think all these tingly things about muslims then I wouldn't have to think all these tingly things about these muslims." Yep, I'm sure all these moderate muslims are just waiting for some random dude from the internet to tell them that he personally doesn't think they've taken a public enough stand against extremism for him to not feel uncomfortable when he sees them dressed all muslim-ey. You should rent one of those planes that spell out messages with smoke. You could have the plane spell out something like "Hey muslims, are we cool?"

As I implied before, your inability to correctly suss out the give and take between cause and effect has nothing to do with muslims. Why should they have to answer for your ignorance of them? Why do you think you understand how muslims feel about islamic extremism? How could you possibly be ignorant of the multitude of muslims who've come out against extremism? Here's a hint: they don't typically end up on Rush.

Quote:
No doubt there have been many in the fight against terrorist acts carried out in the name of the religion, but then there are these types of reports:

I don't know if the arrest was proper or not, time will tell - but my outrage is targeted to those who made the attempt, not those trying to find out who was involved. Are we on the same team? Do we have the same goals? I don't know, we need a dialog to gain a better understanding in my opinion. Just as some may have an irrational fear of Muslims, there are Muslims who have an irrational fear of us.
Who gets the focus of your outrage couldn't be less relevant here. It doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. The fact that you think it does means you've misread me. The fact that you think the situation could be simplified if only you could just sit down and have a dialogue with muslims means you have a fundamental misunderstanding about reality. Really, that doesn't even make sense.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you don't know shit about the situation in Yemen, nor the competence of Yemeni officials or their propensity to arrest someone because they want to appear to be doing something. When one doesn't know shit about a situation, the most advisable course of action is to refrain from comment, lest people assume that you're the type to drone on about things you don't understand.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:10 AM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars View Post
Did I ask if the nation wasn't outraged? Did I ask if the nation did not morn? Did I state there was support for this act or the ideologies behind it? Though to be honest there was some support among the militia groups in this country. But that was never my point.
I attempted to illustrate the difference between what I consider passive approval of an act and the opposite.


Quote:
I asked, basically, why weren't "people freaked out at every thin white guy they saw." I mean if you're going to go around supporting profiling why wasn't that profile profiled?
There are some circumstance where I would be on guard but I generally don't get "freaked out". After the bombing we did profile, we identified people who fit the profile and they where investigated, monitored and watched.

---------- Post added at 03:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
It seems impossible to pin you down to a single opinion on this matter, ace.
My opinion is that an open and honest dialog will help eliminate irrational fears, including irrational fears of Muslims.

Quote:
To me you say that irrational fears need to be expressed so that they can be dispelled. Now you seem to be rationalizing them.
I am saying I have fears. My fears may be irrational. The nature of personal fears is that the individual who has them often does not know.

I can see when another has an irrational fear when it involves something I have intimate experience with, however I do not have intimate experience with the Muslim culture. If I am not allowed to explore the Muslim culture in the context of my fears, I will never know.

I admit my fears, I share my fears and by doing show I open the door for others to help resolve them. Again, using the Iraq war, I remember many exchanges where I would clearly state that I felt Saddam was a threat, before, during and after the war. You can read what the responses were by doing a search. At the end of the day, Bush shared my fears and many others did also. Saddam rather than acting in a manner to minimize those fears he acted in a provocative manner. I see that an opportunity for a peaceful resolution was missed. Was my response to the perceived threat irrational? Was "machismo" the cause of poor decision making? I see these as serious questions, perhaps beyond the scope of a forum like this. But ultimately we can not pretend away the fact that millions in this country have similar fears to the fears expressed by Williams.

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton View Post
So your answer to my question is "If only I could tell those muslims to stop letting me think all these tingly things about muslims then I wouldn't have to think all these tingly things about these muslims." Yep, I'm sure all these moderate muslims are just waiting for some random dude from the internet to tell them that he personally doesn't think they've taken a public enough stand against extremism for him to not feel uncomfortable when he sees them dressed all muslim-ey. You should rent one of those planes that spell out messages with smoke. You could have the plane spell out something like "Hey muslims, are we cool?"
If they don't care, if you don't care - so be it. You've said it in so many words, perhaps they should rent a plane and spell out that they don't care what I think with smoke. Once that is resolved we can move on to the next step - how is that for a plan?

Quote:
As I implied before, your inability to correctly suss out the give and take between cause and effect has nothing to do with muslims. Why should they have to answer for your ignorance of them?
They are under no obligation.

Quote:
Why do you think you understand how muslims feel about islamic extremism?
I don't.

Quote:
How could you possibly be ignorant of the multitude of muslims who've come out against extremism?
I get mixed messages from them, I see some speaking out against the use of terror, I see many being passive, and I see some celebrate the violence or anti-western sentiment.


Quote:
Who gets the focus of your outrage couldn't be less relevant here. It doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. The fact that you think it does means you've misread me. The fact that you think the situation could be simplified if only you could just sit down and have a dialogue with muslims means you have a fundamental misunderstanding about reality. Really, that doesn't even make sense.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you don't know shit about the situation in Yemen, nor the competence of Yemeni officials or their propensity to arrest someone because they want to appear to be doing something. When one doesn't know shit about a situation, the most advisable course of action is to refrain from comment, lest people assume that you're the type to drone on about things you don't understand.
Yes, your answer is to silence people like me, ridicule people like me, pretend that you are above anything that can be an irrational fear - I got that.

We disagree on the way problems get solved.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:33 AM   #151 (permalink)
 
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ace, so you're basically arguing that because there are racists whose racism is animated by fear that therefore it's legitimate to be a racist.

so presumably to oppose racism is to discriminate against racists.

which would mean that you are defending the "right" of racists to be racist publicly---because you want to use this "argument" to oppose npr's firing of juan williams.

so then there can be no problem with racism, really. instead, there should be some vague "dialogue" which would somehow "take seriously" the fears of racists and make them "feel better" about the things that prompt their racism. of course since there's neither form nor content to this "dialogue" we can only assume it'd be interminable.

and all that would happen in it really is that the political onus placed by most rational people on racism would be erased, and for it would be substituted some bizarre-o therapeutic regimen designed, presumably, by yourself, with the sole function of enabling you to "argue" that juan williams shouldn't have been fired for expressing what is basically a racist sentiment.

i'm amazed that you insist on this loopy position.

i'm less amazed that you repeatedly dodge the consequences of your own argument, however, because that's clearly how you roll.

and that is why i thought the tea party clip above pertinent here. the "argumentation" mode from the tea partier in it is the same.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:45 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Well whatever you did or tried to do you never answered my question... still haven't.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:34 AM   #153 (permalink)
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ace, so you're basically arguing that because there are racists whose racism is animated by fear that therefore it's legitimate to be a racist.
It is not legitimate to be racist.

Racism is a real condition, often caused by some irrational fear - there are other causes but that is not the issue here.

A racist condition can be changed.

An open and honest dialog is the best way to resolve a racist condition.

To the contrary, ridicule, attempt to silence, and pretense make the problem worse.

Why are these points not clear?

Quote:
so presumably to oppose racism is to discriminate against racists.
You are getting to the point of being absurd, because you know what my point is but you insist on putting effort into trying to mock my points. I consider this silliness. At some point I will most likely respond in-kind. Is this your goal?

Quote:
which would mean that you are defending the "right" of racists to be racist publicly---because you want to use this "argument" to oppose npr's firing of juan williams.
I was a young child when Malcom X was murdered. I have read his biography and many of his speeches. The man evolved in a manner for the world to see. At one point he was a racist. Before his death he was not. We benefited from his public evolution - so yes, I defend the "right" of a racist to be racist publicly. And as my grandmother told me - it is always better when racists are openly racist rather than having people be undercover racists. I stated the Williams termination is not the issue.

Quote:
so then there can be no problem with racism, really. instead, there should be some vague "dialogue" which would somehow "take seriously" the fears of racists and make them "feel better" about the things that prompt their racism. of course since there's neither form nor content to this "dialogue" we can only assume it'd be interminable.
Isn't easier just to read what I write? How much effort does it take for you to go through one of these exercises. Pure silliness.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:39 AM   #154 (permalink)
 
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i go through the exercise ace because your "arguments" are ridiculous.
and you simply refuse to admit problems with your positions.
in this case, it's funny because you're whining about "wanting a dialogue" while seeming to be yourself entirely incapable of carrying on a dialogue.

this happens over and over. you might think about it.

clarification: when i use the word "legitimate" i don't mean "good" in the sense of "yay racism." what i mean is that there's something worth taking seriously that shapes racist positions. i reject the idea that there is anything worth taking seriously about racism. i like hate crime legislation in the european style to address racist speech.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:52 AM   #155 (permalink)
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Well whatever you did or tried to do you never answered my question... still haven't.
As a child I watched a cartoon called Casper the Friendly Ghost. Casper was a ghost who carried the baggage of ghosts being scary. As the title suggests Casper was a friendly ghost and meant no one any harm. He often befriended a character who carried no irrational fear of ghosts. His sort-term friendships often got interrupted when another character with an irrational fear would "freak-out". Casper had three uncles who often used Capser's attempts to befriend people to scare the sh*t out of those people for fun. Casper ahd a responsibility to deal with his plight, and he did the best he could, but he understood that he had a responsibility.

---------- Post added at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
i go through the exercise ace because your "arguments" are ridiculous.
An open and honest dialog can help end irrational fear. In your mind that is ridiculous.

People having irrational fears. In your mind that is ridiculous.

A person may possibly not know that their fear is irrational. In your mind that is ridiculous.

People in this country have a irrational fear of Muslim. In your mind that is ridiculous.

Etc.

Etc.


O.k., I understand your position. We disagree. Now what?

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
clarification: when i use the word "legitimate" i don't mean "good" in the sense of "yay racism." what i mean is that there's something worth taking seriously that shapes racist positions. i reject the idea that there is anything worth taking seriously about racism.
In my opinion your approach fails.


Quote:
i like hate crime legislation in the european style to address racist speech. but such law would shut down alot of tea party organizations, now wouldn't it.
Make it illegal and that will stop it???Make racism illegal and people will stop being racists???Make it illegal for people to say something that may be racist and that will stop racist comments? Make irrational fear illegal, and people will stop having irrational fear? Is this your line of thought on this subject?
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Old 11-02-2010, 10:35 AM   #156 (permalink)
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Old 11-02-2010, 10:47 AM   #157 (permalink)
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1000 words
Does this mean you agree with me, as should everyone else?
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:19 AM   #158 (permalink)
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Old 11-02-2010, 12:10 PM   #159 (permalink)
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One major flaw in your plan, Ace, is that it is predicated on the assumption that people (maybe even most people) don't know when their fears are irrational. From my experience people know damn good and well when they have racist views and they keep them willingly because they find them gratifying. Perhaps it gives them a false sense of control over their environment...free from being at the mercy of random, unforeseeable circumstances. But you see people hang onto these assumptions beyond all reason and in the face of overwhelming evidence against them. It is deliberate. I don't think you can 'educate' these people away from their prejudices. They like having them.

I haven't given a lot of thought to hate speech legislation before, but one immediate benefit that comes to mind would be that it sets a very clear and definitive standard for American public dialogue, esp. on the airwaves. It will not, of course, stop people from believing what ever stupid shit they want to believe, but it will prevent them from going on the air and trying to influence others with their poisonous talk. I have no problem whatsoever with America having a standard that says, this is what America is about when it comes to hate. They learned a good lesson on this subject in Rwanda.
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Old 11-02-2010, 12:40 PM   #160 (permalink)
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Yes, but the only speech that needs protection is the speech that is difficult to hear. We as a society can reject abhorent speech, and we do all the time. When we allow the government to define it and control it, we will invariably slide that line until true freedom of speech is eliminated.

Instead, we must use those same public air waves to adamantly object to the hateful speech and expose the author for the bigot he is. I think that is what is happening with Williams, although there hasn't been any real penalty other than a career change.
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