Baraka_Guru

And the tu quoque rages on.

It's funny because wanting to rid Congress of Muslims has virtually nothing to do with wanting a black man as President.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

Tu quoque (pronounced /tjuːˈkwoʊkwɛ/ [1]), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a kind of logical fallacy. It is a Latin term for "you, too" or "you, also". A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's viewpoint on an issue on the argument that the person is inconsistent in that very thing.[2] It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[3]

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Post #58.

I think our President is liberal. I think Obama, as a liberal, holds the most powerful office in the world.

For example, I want a choice to eat whatever kind of fatty, sugery, salty, foods I want, there are liberals in some major cities like NY where some people, I would call them liberals, want to restrict my right.


Talk to Obama and the people who cheer him on. Obama has singled out Fox News, conservative talk radio, specific commentators as an enemy of the liberal agenda.

There are the bitter clingers to guns and religion, perhaps they are not the enemy, but just to stupid to understand.

And, now there is the Chamber of Commerce, you know the balding, potbellied, il fitted suit wearing, middle-aged business men with a liking of rubbery chicken lunches, who are going to end democracy as we know it in cooperation with anonymous foreign donors.

Just to try to elaborate on the importance of the points I have been making, think about what lead us to the Iraq war.

I feared Saddam was a threat and would use WMD on innocent people. Many others shared my fear, including Bush. Over and over Bush communicated this fear in clear plain language. Anti-war liberals ignored this, to the point of when Bush asked Congress for authorization to use military force - they did not believe he would actually use it. They were surprised and shocked, or at least that is what they said. So, it seems to me that you think I am a sucker for saying we need to openly and honestly deal with fear. If that is how you define a sucker, I am guilty as charged and I am proud to be one.

---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

My preference would be that racism end. I have not suffered the way my father has but I have paid a price for my race. My 13 year old son is becoming of an age when many in the world will fear him simply because of his age and skin color. Why on earth you think I would want to normalize racism is beyond belief, especially if you read what I write.

I talk and write about my fears and biases because I seek to become a better person. I engage the liberal point of view to try to get a better understanding. What I do, works, what I suggest about open and honest communication, works. but the first step is for people to be willing to acknowledge their fears and biases. Do you have any?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cimarron29414

rb- I hate standing between the swords, but will do so in order to close our circle. I completely agree with you. This guy is a significant national figure in the Tea Party, like it or not. The best thing his group could do is demand he publically apologize AND remove him from his position. If they don't, it will look bad on their group and will give evidence to the fact that his Tea Party group does not value the freedom of religion baked into our Constitution. There's no way of denying that, any reasonable person can see it.

If you spent any time with the group I was in, I believe you would find them massively different than those at the national level. Sadly, the national level has been hijacked. The group I was in passed a collection plate as a means of getting enough money for printer cartridges to print news letters. It certainly had NO financial backing from the Kochs. It also spent a significant time at each meeting emphasizing that we needed to stay on message - which is dedicated to fiscal responsibility. The group is going strong, I just don't attend anymore. Again, I'm more focused on getting "my own house" in order.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

aceventura3

Bullshit. I am a Republican and I have actively participated in activities and functions with thousands of Republicans, including people active in the Tea Party. The number of racist, and other "ists" is no different than in liberal circles. If you have evidence to support your claim, share it.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

Many fears are irrational, and I still don't know what the liberal solution is, so how do you propose dealing with a person who has an irrational fear of Muslims?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

ace, given that i don't find anything at all interesting in your "argument" above, i'm not going to waste my time responding to it. if you work your way through what Tu quoque means, you'll understand the basis for not finding your claim worth my bother to refute.

one of the main figures in the tea party nation posted something on the weekend that argued keith ellison should be defeated because he's muslim and "muslims don't belong in congress."

that's a fact.
it is not interesting to me whether you like it.
it really isn't.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

ace, you are talking about Democrats. You don't know what a liberal is.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

I imagine the way to deal with Islamophobia should be similar to the way we deal with antisemitism or other forms of xenophobia.

---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

Yeah, even Glenn Beck has taken to calling the Democrats "progressives" instead of "liberals." And most should consider Democrats moderates or centrists more so than liberals. "Liberal" has become somewhat of an epithet, but it's often misdirected.

However, 22% of the electorate does identify as a liberal (44% as moderate, 34% as conservative).

Wikipedia has an interesting entry on this:
Factions in the Democratic Party (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It suggests that the "liberal wing" of the party is somewhat diminished.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ottopilot

Curious... I would agree that most Democrats are not classic liberals. I still consider myself an old-school liberal (gasp). My grandparents were liberals and would not recognize today's Democratic party as home to classic liberalism. "We" tend to identify closer with much (not completely) of the current Libertarian ideology where "liberty" and "liberal" have not been co-opted by the social progressives. What does liberalism mean to you and how would you describe the collective ideology of the current Dem party?

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Baraka_Guru

otto, most people today consider the term liberal to mean the social liberalism of today. Classic liberalism is a different creature, which is why it's considered "classic."

Classic liberalism is mostly about the individual, whereas social liberalism considers the role of the state as important.

To me, the Democratic party is mostly centrist or Third Way. Bill Clinton marked a shift for the Dems.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

the democratic party still operates largely in the image of the very very centrist democratic leadership conference, of which clinton was a good representative. him and dick morris were able to drive the republicans a bit crazy with their strategy of triangulation, which was about co-opting republican issues. to deal with it, the republicans started shifting hard to the right ideologically, even as the organizational basis for that shift was in place as a result of ralph reed et al's use of the christian coalition as the basis for a republican political machine amongst social conservatives in the old democratic party mode.

in my more pragmatic modes, i'm closest to a social-democracy and can tell you that the democratic party has no resemblance to social democratic politics. you can see it by the way things are going now---they're not thinking in fiscal terms, they're still playing along with the right, whose policies created the crisis we're in to begin with.

a single-party state with two right wings.

there's no correlate of old-school democratic party social liberalism of the new-deal/post new-deal variety at this point. doesn't mean there couldn't or shouldn't be, but the fact that basically everyone's still a neo-liberal despite the travesty neo-liberalism is should tell you something.

if by classical liberal, you mean you find something compelling about ricardo and mill and other quaint musty volumes of 19th century political economy, then i guess that's nice.

that shit's been materially irrelevant for over a century at this point, but i suppose it's ok to find it appealing much in the way it's ok to like hobbits or elves.


=======


o yeah. have a look at this naacp report from last week about the tea party as providing a platform for racism:

http://teapartynationalism.com/

it's interesting reading.
it's always better to know what you're interacting with. things are not always what they appear from the "people i know at local meetings"---hell, the people i know from the tea party around here are lots of different things. a few of them are racists. alot more of them think along lines that normalize racism. and that's a line like what ace has been working here.

he'd have us believe that it's sensible to be racist.
but every racist thinks that.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Perhaps not.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------


Have those issues been dealt with?

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

Is Obama a "social liberal"?

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

Relative to what?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

I think it's rather more like "being dealt with." There are people who deal with these things. But they have a lot stacked against them.

I'm not sure how useful this questions is. For starters, I don't know Obama's politics on the individual level. I suppose I could look to his record as a senator. Even then, I'm not that steeped in American politics to know the significance of a senator's actions and whether he or she is acting as a liberal vs. a centrist.

Obama is the president, but he's also a member of the Democratic Party. It's my understanding that he needs the support of enough of his party to get things done. This is politics.

It's also my understanding that the Democratic Party as a whole comes across as largely centrist, or Third Way.

The upcoming election isn't about whether "the left" will lose out to the Republicans. It's a question of whether we'll see the erosion of the centre. This might spur the Democrats to adopt a more obvious Third Way tack like Clinton did when he lost the House to the Republicans midway through his first term after a failed attempt at passing health care reform. Sound familiar?

Clinton seemed to be more effective once he started co-opting Republican issues. Yay, centrism!

I think roachboy means this relative to the actual left. Social democrats, for example.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

I don't think any of these issues are being effectively dealt with, and my observation of the posts responding to me here is that there is a preference to pretend problems like this are no longer real. That it is better to shun and ridicule people when they have the courage to openly and honestly attempt to handle fears that they know are irrational. When a person like Williams talks about his fear and talks about how it is irrational - to me he is closer to the solution than those who would want to pretend the fears are not real.

Can you give an example of a known liberal?

Even on this question, if I don't know what I am talking about I am open to being educated. However, I am accused of not knowing what I am talking about in very cryptic ways.

Again, I use the example of DADT, Obama can get this done. Most Americans would support eliminating this policy, his party supports eliminating this policy, what is centrist about him not getting it done?

Generally, there is no center. There is no compromise on the big questions of the day. We fight in Afghanistan or we don't. We use debt to stimulate economic growth or we don't. We have DADT or we don't. We believe the private sector through tax cuts does better creating jobs or we think the government is. We support the right to own guns or we don't.


Perhaps, he can expand on this - it is not clear to me.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ASU2003

This "Compromise is defeat" and "Obama must fail" bull shit from the right is what is what is wrong. There are new ideas and other things we can do in order to make progress.

Afghanistan - troop surge, build relationships, eliminate bad people, provide security and let people live in peace for a while, then build up local security forces, make sure a peaceful, tolerant Islam is taught, setup businesses, and work towards getting our troops out, but leaving behind 'cleaners'.

Debt spending - expose how debt spending works and all of the accounting tricks used by lots of past administrations to hide the true cost of projects or pass the costs on. It would have been better if the government would have had to get individual people to put up some money in T-bonds or something similar. It would have been better to focus on who would benefit if the banks were bailed out, and made sure the citizens got their money back. And there needed to be rules to prevent something like this from happening again. Yet, something had to get done.

DADT - could be Don't Ask, Don't Care. Gay soldiers don't need to flaunt it, and I don't most of them would. And girl soldiers would probably start saying that they are lesbian to stop the guys from hitting on them.

Tax cuts - they need to get paid for, and there needs to be more studies that actually show that they work as advertised. I think they make to peaks and valleys of the business cycle higher and lower. People spend the money, yet then in a few years they don't need to buy as much and the economy comes back down. Or people put them in the stock market, offshore accounts, or just save it. But, I agree that the government has to innovate in order to create jobs (which it does by funding research and development to create private sector companies)

Guns - I have no problem with people having guns. I have a problem with some of their attitudes. If you are making terroristic statements, I have no problem with the feds taking your guns away. If you are mentally unbalanced because you lost your job or went through a breakup, you shouldn't have access to your guns for a while.

Environment - We are putting lots of crap into the air (Hg, Pb, small particles). Yes, other countries are still putting just as much pollutants into the air as we are, but we have the technology to reduce the amount of energy we use, generate cleaner energy, and not take shortcuts to get cheap energy (PA ground water - nat gas, deep water - oil). And there is less on-going maintenance needed for renewable generation.

Abortion - Women should have access to birth control and be taught about it in 6th grade. It should be somewhat hard to get one (and I don't believe anyone uses that as their primary BC method), yet, they should be allowed to have it.

Social Security - it shouldn't be the only source of income, but it should provide the basics. The money shouldn't be allowed to be used for other projects.

I want to see them come up with solutions that both sides can live with.

The media doesn't give any time to people in 'the center'. They are having a rally next weekend in DC though.

Tully Mars

Nice^

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Baraka_Guru

There are organizations and initiatives that deal with these issues. Their effectiveness is based on their reach and ability to maintain a consistent and persistent message. Unfortunately, ignorance and hatred are like weeds.

I don't think Williams was "effectively dealing with the problem" so much as airing his dirty laundry.

I don't know American politics well enough to centre on individual politicians to any depth; however, I believe that Ted Kennedy is a prime example. I would imagine that most Democrats could be considered more centrist compared to Kennedy, or, if you will, "less liberal."

What's centrist about it is not taking a stronger stand on it, and not making LGBT issues in general (i.e. gay marriage) a more central issue. From what I've seen, the Democrats have taken a rather moderate, if not disappointing, stance on these issues.

You have mistaken centrism as requiring that all issues be left/right issues, that all situations be black and white, that all politicians be in agreement one way or another on all issues in perfect alignment. It's not the case. The varying degrees of agreement/disagreement is why the centre exists in the first place.

Look at it this way: those on the left generally look at centrist politics as either having gone too far or not having gone far enough.

In America, to say there is no centre ignores the profound compromises the Democrats have made to appease moderates and the right over the past two decades.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

gee, ace, it looks like these tea party geniuses are trying the same line you tried in justifying williams' bigotry by claiming that it's reasonable to be a bigot:

Tea party's Judson Phillips defends essay attacking congressman for being Muslim

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Your assumption is that we can do things like "eliminate bad people", I don't hold the same assumptions nor do I think it is possible. Written many time before foreign powers can not, will not win a war in Afghanistan. We will not/Can not change the culture in that nation. So we either have to occupy the country and continually impose our will or leave.

Business cycles are normal, government need not take special measures to manage business cycles, however when government creates problems in the market often the solutions are even worse. When Wall St. sees gridlock in Washington the good times will start to roll again.

Just end this policy, and let's move on. Obama is the commander-in-chief, he needs to lead and the military will follow.

Or, the government can spend less. But, tax cuts in a high tax rate environment like the one we have now will lead to increased economic activity and more, not less tax dollars going into the treasury.

We agree, but others don't. Some want to outlaw guns entirely. I have no problem with restrictions, just like I have no problem with restrictions on motor vehicle ownership and use.

We must protect the environment, no one disagrees. We have made great strides over the years and we will continue to do so. There is no need for panic, no need for abrupt changes that could ruin our living standards. An "all of the above" approach with continued incremental changes will get us to where we need to be.

I think a viable fetus be allowed to live.

The system is broken and needs to be fixed. I want the choice to control my social security, I want to be able to opt out. You should have whatever choice makes you comfortable.

Is this the rally meant to make jokes and fun of the people on the right? And then next year they will wonder why no one will work with them. Did you hear Obama's comment to a group of Hispanics about punishing their enemies. Who was he talking about?

---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

You can not simply create an organization and pass a law - what I suggest are measures to address the underlying issues. As I see it, open and honest dialog is the most important step.

I can understand you seeing it that way - but that is not the point. The issue is how he sees it, why he sees it that way, and how we can help him see it different. Shunning him, making fun of him, ridicule, comments on his mental state, professionalism is not helpful and actually makes some irrational fears become more entrenched.

The moderate stance is "nothingness" on an issue like this.

I see marriage as a religious issue, I see civil unions as a government issue. Government should not favor marriage nor should government deny adults from a civil union relationship. I am more Libertarian than Republican on this question - but not middle of the road. I am not sure what the "centrist" view is, do you?

I see issues in black and white, figuratively - I admit it, I am different than many, I was born the way I am. From my point of view I am not mistaken, so what is next in order to move the dialog forward?

That is black and white, they think centrists are wrong. Those on the right think they are wrong. Centrist think those on both the right and the left are wrong. Perhaps it is red, green, blue - rather than black and white. But either way there are clear distinctions.

If by compromise you mean they don't get it right, then I agree. For example heath-care in this country- the plan was to just get something passed and then fix it. That is not a good plan in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

I will keep trying.

Many people do not understand Islam. What many know about the religion has come from religious extremists who have declared a holy war against western civilization. With increased understanding of the religion will come increased tolerance and a reduction of irrational fear.

So, the question is - how do we increase the understanding of the religion? We have to allow people to say what they think, only then can we begin to address the underlying issues. The approach of calling people bigots, etc. should not be the first response. There is no doubt that at the end of the day we will find some are simply going to be bigots - but I think that number will be very small. In the mean time we have a large portion of our population that simply does not understand Islam.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

ace---so one should not call racists racists because you'll bum out the racists?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Abraham Lincoln
John F Kennedy
Lydon Johnson
Marin Luther King

Regarding addressing the issues of Civil Rights in ths country the above men standout in my mind. Their approach was not to call people racists (for Johnson, he didn't do it publicly and in some cases privately he used language most were uncomfortable with to get results).

I would have no problem calling a racist and racist, I don't use that kind of language lightly, especially if I were interested in a dialog. When I attempt to antagonize or when I lash-out at people in a uncontrolled manner - I call them names. It is juvenile, but I have been guilty of doing that.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

supersix2

It's interesting, several of the "issues" ace brought up in his post are for the most part non-issues for a lot of people. The problem is that the most vocal people tend to focus on those issues rather than real issues that affect this country. A lot of the major issues that always get discussed around election time like abortion, gay marriage, gun ownership, and the like are personal type issues rather than major problems facing this country. I love how some people think that by stopping abortions or limiting gay rights, or stopping all gun ownership would miraculously solve all problems in the country. The truth is they are distractions that bog down debates, polarize people, and get in the way of the real problems.

I really wish both parties would just cut the crap and realize that a lot of people don't really care about those things.

roachboy

you know what, ace? i'm done with you here. you're defending a position the sole function of which is to undercut (in some imaginary world) the utter stupidity of what juan williams said. i find it beyond bizarre that you've gone as far as you've gone in an apparent quest to shuck any responsibility for stupidity on williams' part and, seemingly, on your own.

btw i take this sort of discussion really personally.
i've laid out in the past some of the reasons why.
i am not interested in your pathetic attempts to normalize bigotry. nor am i interested in normalizing routine conservative racism. i would far prefer to marginalize it. i would prefer to use it to push conservative back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under.
and i couldn't care less about "converting" people like you. so far as i am concerned, if you are amenable to being "converted" to thinking like a rational being, i am not the person to undertake the task.
i dont care about "dialogue" with bigots.
call it a limitation.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

matthew330

(slight buzz this time)

WILLIAMS: But when I get on a plane, I gotta tell ya, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they're identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.

I know exactly who Juan is talking about here, and you all do as well. There is nothing remotely bigoted about this. If any of you found yourselves on a plane watching more than 2 guys traveling together looking like this:

Muslim Beard Styles – How to Choose the Right Beard depends upon which sect you belong. By Anas Abbas AA@Counter Terrorism, Imperialism, Extremism and Bigotry

...you would all pay just a bit more attention to their behavior. Is there really any doubt this is who Juan was referring to by “Muslims in Muslim garb identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims”.

Posting pictures of muslims working as cooks, playing tennis, and running on the beach in cute bikini's might be running through your head as a defense mechanism in the moment, but here it's nothing more than a really weak effort at patting yourself on the back for an attempt at not being bigoted and defending NPR for unjustly firing someone who didn't tow the line.

With all the talk about this not being about free speech and expecting a reaction up to and including being fired, I feel like I need to remind you all to your lack of reaction to, of all people, the VP:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

“In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking.”

This is about free speech. Liberal pack mentality shouting and accusing people of bigotry in an effort to “marginalize the other”, controlling the language their allowed to use to avoid being accused of being a bigot (switch sides and be a bigot all you want, of course).

Baraka_Guru

matthew,

Maybe it should be mandatory for all Muslims to wear "Muslim garb" and Muslim beard styles so that they're all easily identifiable. That way we can all pay more attention to their behaviour.

And about your comments on the VP: I'm beginning to hear bells and birdsong. I think it's that damn "quoque clock" again.

Tu quoque! Tu quoque!


A question: Are you attempting to rationalize wholesale Islamophobia?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

matthew330

If your definition of "islamaphobia" is being concerned watching a middle eastern gentlemen with a traditional islamic beard walking down the jetway whilst shaving his armpits and mumbling "Allah is great", I suppose yes I am defending that.

This particular gentleman regardless of his obvious intentions, would probably take comfort knowing the american left would never identify him for what he is.

Baraka_Guru

Okay, so you are defending irrationality. Neat.

I like how you even used it to defend it. It's kind of like the Ouroboros. Which is really neat.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

matthew330

Folks - I am, evidently, Islamaphobic . Shut me down - the world will be a much better place.
....and yes, i'm a victim living painfully in conservative-land. It hurts. Looking forward to hearing that for the 1500th time.

boink

how muslimy does this person need to look before your afraid he/she will blow them self up ?

beard + dark complexion
beard/mustache + ?
long scraggly beard/mustache + Obie Wan Kenobi robes ?
hair veil ?
burka ?
full black burka with eye slit ?

I would venture to say that, if push came to shove most strongly religious people in America would put religion before country, I mean dang, that's one of the biggest reasons people immigrated here in the first place.

do you keep an eye on him the whole flight/bus ride/whatever ?

I mean honestly the thought of him blowing himself up would come to my mind too (too much Bevis and Butthead), but thoughts of the war in general would also come up like over 1,000,000 civilian Muslims have died in these wars. the craziness of religious zealotry in all cultures, all the things that create the xenophobia in the world today.

the thing is I don't entertain these thoughts, I know these are childish 'boogeyman' fears. it's just silly.

what is this, a visual cue a Muslim is about to explode/wip out a box cutter knife ?

what are these intentions ? what is he ? what are the odds this guy is just a father intending to go home to his family ?

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

mixedmedia

Fact is, you don't whether anyone regardless of how they look is going to be a danger to you. It doesn't take a particularly enlightened person to realize that not only Arabs and black guys are killing people in this world. Yet, apparently it takes an inordinate amount of rational thought to keep oneself from slipping into a paranoid fit whenever they see an 'Arab looking all Muslimy' on a plane.

I suggest that any who feels that way not go back and re-watch those airport security cameras of the 9/11 hijackers before they got onto the planes. Then you might find yourself freaking out over all the Hispanic or vaguely Mediterranean-looking guys with button-down collars and chinos, too. Unless, of course, you are convinced that you can tell a Greek from an Italian from a Puerto Rican from a Spaniard from a Lebanese from a Pakistani, etc., etc., etc. with absolute certainty. Maybe, to be safe, you should just stay home. Board yourselves in even.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

matthew330

I understand many of you liberals would like to live in a world where people who don't share you same opinions board themselves up, I'm sorry that won't be happening. In fact - I've been to 10 different cities in 4.5 weeks - from Tucson, to Tampa, to NYC and everywhere in between.

So while you're on a plane struggling to protect your "sensibilities" and not calling out what you know should be called out because what doesn't look right also happens to look too obviously muslim, and might be construed as profiling, it'll probably be someone much like myself that ends up helping the situation.

boink

your saying your gonna spot the next shoe bomber ?

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

silent_jay

...

matthew330

OH looky, another liberal saying the exact same freaking thing, which happens to be completely inaccurate.
You're a bigot Jay. So there, go home now (spongebob's on!)

silent_jay

...

mixedmedia

Not only that but he deliberately avoids the fact that he is as hopelessly vulnerable as anyone else when it comes to protecting himself from danger in the world. He salves this 'weakness' with ideas that he can 'see it coming' by picking out 'the obvious.' Maybe even being the hero that saves the plane because he was nervy enough to pick out the guy in the keffiyeh.

But it's like telling children the people they need to worry about most are old men in trenchcoats. Living under those kinds of assumptions doesn't make a person more safe. But it does make them look like a fool.

That said, matthew is deliberately provocative. He'd say anything to get attention. He probably trolls conservative boards as a radical liberal.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

matthew330

Oh Jay, I thought telling you spongebob was on might entice you home. Can't win them all I guess.
Mixedmedia, seriously? The two of you call me a bigot and I'm provocative?

BTW - you'll recall the ticket agent in Maine who service Mohammed Atta when he departed for Boston recalled this individual as soon as the plane blew up because of how "evil" he looked. Like he wanted to kill him. He recalled feeling guilty for thinking what he had about him when he realized the he died in that plane, before he realized it was him that hijacked it. THat doesn't sound like someone who's #1 priority is "blending in". Sometimes you have to pay attention to the obvious.

boink

not at all, in fact being American means I'm used to living in a "melting pot" of varied ideas and cultural orientations, it's what is supposed to make America great.

I have no interest in 'boarding you up or 'shutting you down'.

honestly in my daily life I don't encounter Muslims that are dressed up like they just walked out of Afghanistan or wherever. I mostly encounter white people, Mexicans a few black and Asian people. I work construction and metal fabrication. I drive to work and drive home. so, my day to day isn't that racially challenging. either way I learned a long time ago ya can't judge a book by it's cover.

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

matthew330

And I never said one muslim man is going to get me nervous. If I see multiple men traveling together who all (let me use Juans words) are first and foremost identifying themselves as Muslim - I will be more aware of their behavior than granny two seats up. If you think that's bigoted, you're idiotic. I'm done pointing out the obvious - you'll never get it because your much too concerned with proving to yourselves I'm bigoted.

Painful...oh so painful.

boink

lol, I don't care weather your bigoted or not.

hey that's what I thought about George Bush, Dick Cheny and Donald Rumsfeld !! and look what they did ! lol, what a coinkidink

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.